Volley Guns?

[CommissarHughes]

The scions have access to the Hot-Shot Las Gun, basically an armor piercing las gun that sacrifices range for AP3. They also have the Hot Shot Volley Gun, a SAW that statistically does as much damage as four regular Hell Guns at rapid fire range when the gunner is stationary out to 24". So, how would you feel about a regular volley gun?

A stat line close to this: S4 AP- Salvo 2/4 Range 30" (Regular hell guns lose 6" range, so one would think that a volley gun would gain 6" on it's marine killing brother) that fills the role of the Squad Automatic Weapon (the machine guns given to the big guys of the squad) that provides suppressive fire and is the most powerful weapon in a squad.

Obviously this is me wish listing, but could such a weapon be balanced at about 10 points?

[librisrouge]

The problem with the Hot Shot Volleygun is that is does more of what you already have. If you've ever found yourself playing with Scions and wishing that you just have more hot shot lasguns in the unit than this is the weapon for you. I, however, (and I suspect I am not the only one) find myself wishing for more horde control (and thus flamers), the ability to punish terminators (and thus plasmaguns), or the ability to crack armor (and thus meltaguns.)

 

It isn't a bad weapon, and if we could take it in addition to the usual specials I'd be right on it.

[greycat]

The main problem is its still just a str3 gun. I would rather have a heavy stubber as a SAW just for the extra str. Usually what happens with my scions is they end up just using their guns like normal lasguns anyway due to the opponent either having cover, a low save or a high save. The situations where the armour is nullified and they are in the open is rare. Even then they are usually marines with high toughness. Bikes or tacticals so wounding on 6+ and 5+.

 

Give it a go in casual games and see how it plays though. It could be fun to have infantry squads with one each.

[Cap'm Heckus]

The main problem is its still just a str3 gun. I would rather have a heavy stubber as a SAW just for the extra str. Usually what happens with my scions is they end up just using their guns like normal lasguns anyway due to the opponent either having cover, a low save or a high save. The situations where the armour is nullified and they are in the open is rare. Even then they are usually marines with high toughness. Bikes or tacticals so wounding on 6+ and 5+.

 

Give it a go in casual games and see how it plays though. It could be fun to have infantry squads with one each.

 

The HS volley gun is S4.  Same was the stubber but it kills power armor.

[greycat]

 

The main problem is its still just a str3 gun. I would rather have a heavy stubber as a SAW just for the extra str. Usually what happens with my scions is they end up just using their guns like normal lasguns anyway due to the opponent either having cover, a low save or a high save. The situations where the armour is nullified and they are in the open is rare. Even then they are usually marines with high toughness. Bikes or tacticals so wounding on 6+ and 5+.

 

Give it a go in casual games and see how it plays though. It could be fun to have infantry squads with one each.

 

The HS volley gun is S4.  Same was the stubber but it kills power armor.

 

 

Wow... disregard what I said about that then. 

[Audemus]

I've been using them in my command squad with a medic so that when my command squad is in cover and not on the move they are still able to throw out a startling number of shots in support of my advancing Scion squads or in defense of itself from MEQ units.  I don't have enough experience putting them in battles to be able to give you a hard answer but I think in terms of 10 man squads the volley guns are eclipsed by plasma guns for sheer stopping power, especially if you find yourself needing to try and engage light armor.  Should you want to try running multiple command squads for 3 special weapon hi-jinks, I imagine that a 3 Volley Gun Command squad in a Taurox Prime (Punisher/Volleys) on an objective with blocked line of sight would be obnoxiously difficult to ferret. 

 

If there is dangerous terrain leading into the area all the better as your Taurox Prime can just plow through it and deploy the volley guns behind it.  You're not going to win if the opponent moves a super heavy your way but you can be sure that weight of fire is going to cripple most infantry units that head in their direction.  Hell if your opponent dedicates their super heavy to a single command squad and a Taurox Prime out of frustration you might very well win by proxy of using misdirection to remove its focus from other more valuable targets.

[greycat]

They would be awesome in a storm lord because they would count as not moving as therefore get the full 4 shots each but then you might as well not bother because the stormlord would be putting out str 6 ap3 shots anyway. Isnt there a warlord trait that gives relentless? 

[WarriorFish]

The problem with the Hot Shot Volleygun is that is does more of what you already have.

libris stikes the nail on the head. Scions are expensive and low on number, those special weapon slots are needed for vital versatility in capability. Melta of course is almost essential anti-tank and if you really want the same role performed take plasma. Works on the same sort of target but also threatens some armour as well as MCs. Ultimately if you want more hotshots then add more Scions so you get some additional models on the table.

 

I'd only consider running them in command squads for some extra shots/utility, but even then they'd still be better served with plasma.

[Kontakt]

   Here is an example of a weapon that the imperial guard could really use. The scions would rather something more.... up close and personal; they lack the relentless rule that would make it so much more of a viable choice. With an army of scions, this weapon is pretty much filling a small gap in your army at the expense of the large gaps. While I appreciate the anti infantry firepower, taurox primes and valkyries seem to do enough of that for me (also, the taurox primes are relentless and can take the volley guns themselves).

 

Edit: The number of times I brought volley guns and ended up shooting at terminators is fairly discouraging. I have devoted my scions to plasma spam since experiencing this on multiple occasions.

[Indefragable]

Slightly off topic but personally I would like to see Hot-Shot Lasguns be:

 

18" S3 AP3 Assault 2, Rapid Fire

 

To me I think of Karskin/Scions as sort of 40k versions of modern day commandos, being experts of close-quarters shooting, running around double-tapping. As such they have the fire discipline to be able to put out twice the number of shots as even "normal" veterans. FOUR shots at 9" sure makes up for the S3, especially since most other infantry weapons gain Rapid Fire at 12".

 

Just my unsolicited opinion. Carry-on.

[GreenPlasma]

I think Volleyguns belong with larger squads so you can reach out to 24" and hide them behind regular riflemen. They're not an alpha strike weapon. You want them fighting wars of attrition at long range.

 

Flamers, Plasma and Melta definitely belong on the Command Squads. Incidentally, twin-linked Flamers will do a number on TEQ for 40pts less than Plasma, they don't get shut down by good Invul or cover saves, and you can either recieve or charge the offending unit yourself. In fact, the damage cap is actually higher for the flamers. Here's the math against any TH/SS termies.

 

20 TL-Flamer hits : 20(3/4)(1/6) = 2.5W for 105pts

8 TL-Plasma shots : 8(8/9)(5/6)(1/3) = 1.975W for 145pts

 

Throw in a Malleus Inquisitor with an Incinerator (40pts), and it's even more favorable. Plasma will still be better for popping T5/T6 MCs and glancing out light vehicles of course.

 

@Indefragable -- I like that idea. In fact it would be nice to have the choice between a rifle and carbine variant, in the same way as a Tau troop.

[Master Antaeus]

Volleyguns look really sharp on paper, but are terrible in-game.  Because of the terrible range of the scions basic weapons, a scion squad that isn't moving is a dead scion squad, meaning that you are stuck with a plasma-gun ranged weapon that doesn't have the same casualty production potential as an actual plasmagun.  That command squad is better off with 3 plasmas, especially if it has a medic.

 

If you wanted a unit to sit on an objective, get Skitarii Rangers.  They excel at hoarding real estate, can scout onto said real estate and are cheaper than your scions who should be pushing forward or deep striking onto distant objectives and then moving away.

[Bionicman]

I think Volleyguns belong with larger squads so you can reach out to 24" and hide them behind regular riflemen. They're not an alpha strike weapon. You want them fighting wars of attrition at long range.

 

Flamers, Plasma and Melta definitely belong on the Command Squads. Incidentally, twin-linked Flamers will do a number on TEQ for 40pts less than Plasma, they don't get shut down by good Invul or cover saves, and you can either recieve or charge the offending unit yourself. In fact, the damage cap is actually higher for the flamers. Here's the math against any TH/SS termies.

 

20 TL-Flamer hits : 20(3/4)(1/6) = 2.5W for 105pts

8 TL-Plasma shots : 8(8/9)(5/6)(1/3) = 1.975W for 145pts

 

Throw in a Malleus Inquisitor with an Incinerator (40pts), and it's even more favorable. Plasma will still be better for popping T5/T6 MCs and glancing out light vehicles of course.

 

@Indefragable -- I like that idea. In fact it would be nice to have the choice between a rifle and carbine variant, in the same way as a Tau troop.

 

Good luck getting these 20 flamers onto the board and into range. No offense but this is mathhammer theory at its best. ;)

[Phubar]

Sorry but i dont understand why the flamers are TL...

[CoffeeGrunt]

He's basing it on the fact that he'll get the Scions' Twin-Linking Order off.

[Master Antaeus]

I must recant my statement of volleyguns being terrible.  They have one use: park your command squad in a bunker and cut loose.