Phoebus Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 When the Horus Heresy first kicked off, back in 0006249.M3, I was excited. I thought it was an incredibly ambitious project. As easy as it might be to dismiss the universe of Warhammer 40k as a sandbox built on tabletop wargaming miniatures - and this is a mindset even a lot of hobbyists subscribe to - I've always considered it a rich setting with almost unmatched dystopian themes. Fast-forward nine years, and that excitement has shifted into somewhat of a love-hate relationship. I'm no longer looking to see when the next novel will be released. This has nothing to do with the number of releases, the types of releases, or - believe it or not - even the price of some of the releases. I expected this series would come to encompass dozens of books from the get-go. I can accept that many of the novellas, audio dramas, e-shorts, etc., aren't necessary for the enjoyment of the main storyline. I even find I can wait for the damn eBook to be released (and thus save USD 20+ on the average main title). No, what's getting to me is the fact that the moments where I have to sit a book down (or, well, my iPad, iPhone, or Macbook) out of disappointment are now as common as those when I'm left genuinely impressed. The instances of author's fiat, deus ex machina, magic hand-waving, and shortcuts for the sake of serving the storyline seem to be increasing all the time. Of late, the annual release schedule of the Horus Heresy has felt like a lot of boxing or mixed martial arts Pay-Per-View event: some of the undercards are surprisingly enjoyable, but for the most part I find myself struggling through some lackluster fights before I can watch the main event. So yeah, my interest had dropped off over the last couple of years. News of a sequel to Scars, however, and status updates on Master of Mankind (no pressure there, guys), have rejuvenated me somewhat. With that came an unexpected realization: that I'd forgotten a lot about the Heresy. I mean, a lot. Discussions take place on this forum about novels that I thought I was very familiar with, and they reference twists, plot turns, and revelations that I had to go back and reacquaint myself with. Eventually, I decided to just man up and re-read the entire series. More truthfully, I started doing so earlier this year... but real world considerations really, really, really got in the way of that. Even that abbreviated experiment, however, led me to realize that I would need a cathartic release of sorts with all that reading. This is where this topic comes into play. I need a release valve, and I plan to loosen my literary bowels (so to speak) by sharing with you, kind reader, my thoughts and feelings about what I read... as I read it. Egotistic? Yeah. Completely unnecessary? Absolutely. Questionable reading? I'd be shocked if you're still reading. Hopefully, however, it will be amusing, too. And hey, I'm a sucker for a conversation on this stuff. If you think I'm off-base on what I'm talking about, I'll be more than glad to let you know how ridiculous your opinion is!Next up... thoughts on Horus Rising. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Looking forward to you thoughts :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4182507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Horologs. I'll let my first post be about horologs. I'm a sucker for details - the ones that immerse you in whatever it is you're reading. That's probably why, in turn, I'm such a sucker for Abnett's writing. It's full of such little things. With Horus Rising, you get one coming right out of the gate, on page one. "Warp-dillated horologs." Abnett could have used "clocks", "timepieces", whatever. A lot of authors employed by Black Library do just that. Fair enough, all those words mean the same thing: they all describe something that keeps track of time. One of the things that sets Abnett apart, however, in my humble opinion, is his use of words that are familiar to most readers... but also reinforce to us that the world we are reading about is quite different from our own. Reading those three little words, it strikes me how so many things that are integral to this setting are often taken for granted. The effect the Warp can have on travel, time, etc., has been alluded to often enough, but generally only in the sense that "this can happen/has happened." I find it curious that this concept isn't given more prominence. I don't necessarily mean getting a story where the heroes arrive in system to find out decades have passed since their last journey, per se. A nod to the very real possibility that you could lose decades, however, would be nice. Something like Astelan and Belath's battle-barges (from "Call of the Lion") synching their horologs upon their first meeting, for instance, to see who has a more accurate fix on the Terran standard. The Devil's in the details! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4182545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Remembering 2006 now with a sign of regret - that was a time of interesting full NOVELS. And not a kingdom of novella sized limited editions Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4182688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 ... Sejanus was the perfect captain, tempered evenly in all respects. A warrior and a diplomat in equal measure, ... 'The noblest hero of the Great Crusade.' One of the things that interests me about the Horus Heresy series when it first kicked off is the mentality (and morality) of the characters involved in the Great Crusade. It's something that has carried over from my interest in ancient history and military history. That is, the motivations behind the things people have done over the millennia in the name of whatever cause they happened to have embraced. As outsiders looking in, we know (or at least should know) that the Emperor operates from a moral perspective that should be absolutely terrifying to anyone aware of it within his fictional setting. The Emperor operates on the macro level of morality. Everything he does is "big picture". Every choice he makes involves breaking a chilling amount of the proverbial eggs. His goal is the survival of a species that is being preyed upon by god-like psychic forces whose parallel universe home is, for all intents and purposes, Hell. When it comes to securing an escape from an "eternity of carnage and slaughter" at the hands of "thirsting gods", the value of the individual human life doesn't even come into the conversation. But what about evenly-tempered Sejanus, or Loken (who was sought to replace him)? Or, for that matter, Primary Iterator Kyril Sindermann? None of them knew of the absolutely existential threat that Chaos posed to Mankind. Though Sindermann attempts to sugar-coat the effort to reunite the far-flung realms of Man at various points of the story, there's no getting away from the fact that the Great Crusade is the concept of Might Makes Right on steroids, on a galactic level. The idea that men - genetically enhanced super-soldiers and un-augmented propagandists alike - would nonetheless subscribe to this mission and its tenets isn't surprising. As far back as human history has been recorded, there have been instances of men flocking to banners of conquest. Even today, well-meaning men and women have patriotically taken up arms to fight in wars whose necessity has been difficult to prove. That's not what bugs me. No, I think the problem I have (sometimes; it hasn't affected my enjoyment of Horus Rising, and it's something that I only started putting a lot of thought to it as I started re-reading this book) is that Loken and Sindermann are a bit too reasonable and well-meaning. I get that the goal is for us to be sympathetic toward Loken so that the betrayal that comes two novels later resonates that much more with us. I wonder, however, if the series would have been that much more powerful had the protagonists had that "bit of crazy" you see in John Blanche's conceptual artwork for Warhammer 40k in them. If you can make Loken sympathetic despite making it clear that he adopts a very "God will know his own" attitude when ordered to torch a whole hive, then you know you've won. Probably the best example of what I'm thinking about can be found in the novel Dune. In the movie adaptation, Duke Leto Atreides is a tragic figure but is divested of a lot of the complexity Herbert wrote in him. In the novel, Leto is fair and benevolent toward his vassals. He is seen by his fellow nobles as a voice of reason and justice. But Herbert is not afraid to share with us that Leto nonetheless employs propaganda officers to spin his image, or that he is ruthlessly comfortable with employing assassins. Upon the supposed destruction of House Atreides, Gurney Halleck, Leto's valorous lieutenant, takes up employment with a consortium of smugglers and casual killers. Paul, Leto's son, makes use of manufactured prophecies to manipulate superstitious desert tribesmen into accepting him as their ally and, later, their messiah. This works in part because the enemies of the Atreides are far worse individuals: the Harkonnen are megalomaniacal sadists and rapists who enjoy their murderous intrigues. That opposite is lacking in Horus, however. You get hints of the villainy to come here and there, but nowhere near the point where Loken and his friends are made heroic by contrast. "Tolerance is weakness," Little Horus Aximand says later on in Horus Rising, and I wish that kind of sentiment would have come from Loken. I wish that Loken's moral courage (his refusal to compromise his ideals and follow his brethren to treason) would have been matched by that sort of terrible pragmatism. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4182691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I think the Luna Wolves in Horus Rising seem almost like the Ultramarines...a really "clean" disciplined legion. I'm not sure if this is consistent with Forgeworld's fluff. As far as I know, the Terran Luna Wolves were drawn from savage tribes and the Cthonians were savages as well. Sejanus is almost a bit Marius Gage-ish. The only thing Cthonian about the Luna Wolves was Abaddon's topknot. Granted, Horus Rising precedes Betrayal by 6 years. Perhaps, this apparent inconsistency could be explained by writing Horus as a civilizing force upon his legion. After his corruption, he would encourage its regression back to savage ways Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4182734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Granted, Horus Rising precedes Betrayal by 6 years. Perhaps, this apparent inconsistency could be explained by writing Horus as a civilizing force upon his legion. After his corruption, he would encourage its regression back to savage ways I think that's exactly it, as Horus realized the Cthonian cult-of-personality-centric gang culture would serve as a great vehicle for his new goals, and so began to promote up more Cthonians. It's kind of a retcon because it took until Betrayal's release for that bit, but FW wrote it in such a way that you can believe it's happening in the opening book trilogy without needing to have it described. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 I think the Luna Wolves in Horus Rising seem almost like the Ultramarines...a really "clean" disciplined legion. ... The only thing Cthonian about the Luna Wolves was Abaddon's topknot. That's something that occurred to me, as well. Abnett makes mention of Cthonian culture and characteristics here and there, but other than Abaddon's choler, it never really manifests (that I recall; but then, that's why I'm re-reading the series). That didn't bother me when I first started with the series, as I chalked it up to Astartes indoctrination paving over the homeworld culture. As more and more legions were introduced, though, it became obvious that this was the case. Dark Angels are very Calibanite, White Scars are very Chogorian, Space Wolves are very Fenrisian, and so on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 I think likewise I'd put that down to it being the first of the series. Horus Rising is a good book, and a very good start to it all, but it does show it's age (relative to other entries anyway) in those respects. The Luna Wolves don't have as much of a clear culture and identity as some legions would later be given, and at times it feels as if Abnett is reluctant to go into too much depth or detail with Horus himself. Which is perfectly understandable, just something I'm aware of when I read it. That's one reason I'd really like to see Abnett return to the Sons of Horus (beyond "Little Horus" I mean), to see what he can do with them and their primarch now that the series is in full swing and there's no need to be tentative about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 This thread has gotten me re-reading Horus Rising as well. Apart from the Luna Wolves being surprisingly..."civilised"...this novel has aged pretty well in my view. Actually, it's even better than I remembered, especially now that I'm able to compare it to subsequent dross. This was a powerful start to the series. A real pity that he series now seems to be in the hands of the likes of Nick Kyme. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Let's please not fall prey to author-bashing. I respect your opinion, and perhaps this thread will eventually arrive to entries that aren't... universally loved. Until then, though, let's stay on target! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 It was my honest emotion after reading through about a fifth of Horus Rising...this was a phenomenal start to the series, which has since struggles to maintain quality Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183318 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Petty complaint time! Don't be that way. I told you, this isn't exactly going to be Masterpiece Review. There are going to be a lot of random posts about random observations. So let's talk power armour racks. As in, the racks on which the power armour of Space Marines hang in many a story. How I hate the mere mention of those racks. Had I ever compiled a list of things that ruin my suspension of disbelief where Warhammer 40k/Horus Heresy tales are concerned, power armour racks would almost certainly make the top five. Easily. The first time I read the term "power armour rack", the mental image that immediately sprang to mind was a damn coat rack from a department store. I haven't been able to shake it since. I could be reading an absolute masterpiece by the very best to have graced this setting, but the second I spot the words "armour rack", I picture pieces of power armour awkwardly hanging off some mundane little contraption - like there's a clearance sale of the stuff on the Vengeful Spirit. I know, I know. Tough customer. Hard to please. Stay with me. One of the first images Warhammer 40k images I saw was from the old Index Astartes I article, on the creation of Space Marines: http://redelf.narod.ru/p/w40k_ia_roi_4.jpg I loved it. It got me hooked in the setting. This image didn't just depict the process of a Space Marine putting on power armour; this was a religious ceremony on display. And there's an even better one, where, like, twenty artificers and/or servitors are girding a Veteran battle-brother in Terminator armour for war. That, to me, was Warhammer 40k. All those fabulously dystopian litanies and prayers you get in the core rulebooks were made for these pictures. When you're chanting about making your hate the shield of your soul (or whatever), you better have a small cabal of fanatics and their lobotomized assistants making an absolute ritual out of the process of putting on your socks. Now I get that the above informs the forty-first millennium more so than the thirty-first one, but I'm sticking by my guns. Loken should not be wheeling out a rack from a "small, shadowy alcove". Warrior of a secular Imperium or no, I expect the private arming chamber of a Captain of the Legiones Astartes to look something like this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-l63VYb11HMM/VW3VYr2qs2I/AAAAAAAA0ZQ/ofN5v8SGspY/s640/spacemarine.PNG (In this case, we're talking Cthonian-born Luna Wolves, so I expect it to also be dark, lit by a bunch of braziers, and with crude gang-glyphs carved right next to elegant friezes of Imperial eagles and Eyes of Horus). I get that Loken is a humble guy and that he's not the sort to have an entourage around whilst striking dramatic poses while parts of power armour are about to be put on him in incorrect sequence. But maybe there's a happy compromise that doesn't remind me of the sort of thing my friends and I would build in Afghanistan and Iraq to keep our body armor free of sand:http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2530/3976329688_d5c89955f5_m.jpg Maybe Mersadie Oliton's perspective should be less, "I just walked into the boot room of a football club and I'm going to say hi to the captain of the team" and more, "Ah, crap. I just walked into a shrine to war and post-human savagery, didn't I? I sincerely hope Captain Torgaddon was serious about Captain Loken being reasonable and approachable, and that my cybernatically-elongated skull is not about to be mounted somewhere in here." Man, I'm tired. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Slight rewind. Every time I read this, ... “My commander,’ Abaddon relayed to the heart of the waiting fleet, ‘there is no dealing here. This fool imposter will not listen.’And the commander replied, ‘Illuminate him, my son, but spare all you can. That order not withstanding, avenge the blood of my noble Sejanus. Decimate this “Emperor’s” elite murderers, and bring the imposter to me.”Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “Horus Rising.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/trmZy.l ... this pops into my cranium. To be clear, this is a good thing. Yeah, Flash Gordon is camp, and no, I don't think of Horus Rising as camp, but I love that movie and I can't shake the fact that Abaddon and Horus are wearing their hubris for all to see. The kind of hubris that only warlords utterly capable of demolishing any culture they encounter might possess. Random note: I never actually picture Abaddon and Horus during this dialogue. When I imagine those words being uttered, I see instead the enemy warships firing on Abaddon's speartip. Silent explosions. Salvos of all manner of missiles, energy projectors, etc. - all utterly ineffective at stopping this vicious armada of wicked battle-barges from smashing into their homeworld. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Did you notice that the False Emperor is mentioned as having guided his people through the Age of Strife (or so he claimed)? Don't you find that a bit odd? How could anyone other than an Emperor or a Primarch live that long? Also, Abnett mentioned that Astartes are functionally immortal, which doesn't seem to be the case in other sources...maybe people at the time of the Great Crusade had no idea about Astartes lifespan because they were so new and the common belief was that they were functionally immortal since they barely aged after 100, 200 years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 You are trying to find lore errors in stuff that was planned just as trilogy of books - and now Horus Heresy BL train has no brakes. All the starting lore is almost outdated and plainly wrong Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I am not "trying" to find "errors"...I am raising points for discussion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Ah, my bad Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 You are trying to find lore errors in stuff that was planned just as trilogy of books - and now Horus Heresy BL train has no brakes. All the starting lore is almost outdated and plainly wrongI sincerely doubt the series was ever planned to be just a trilogy. The fact that book 3 only gets us to Isstvan V should indicate that. At best, the series may originally have been planned to be shorter. Beyond that, in regards to your opinion on the lore of those early novels, that's a sweeping - and unsupported, in my humble opinion - generalization. But that's neither here nor there. This topic isn't about which lore is "true" or "not true". It's simply a vehicle by which I express my thoughts about what I'm reading when I'm reading it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4183719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Phoebus They officially said that they planned to make it a trilogy - and end it upon the sands of Istvaan 5 to make it even more tragic. But after the grand success of Horus Rising and False Gods - they decided to plan 7 more books. After the Galaxy in Flames and Flight of Eisenshtein it became what it is now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4185180 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 HeritorA, You read that yourself? Or you heard that from someone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4186080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Phoebus - right from the mouth of Nick Kyme, Laurie Goulding, Gav Thorpe and Graham McNeil at BL Weekender 2013 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4186204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 3, 2015 Share Posted October 3, 2015 So they originally planned to end the HH series with the Istvaan massacre? That sounds like a really premature ending Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4187293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted October 3, 2015 Author Share Posted October 3, 2015 HeritorA, I wasn't there, and I certainly don't have a reason to call you a liar, but that sounds absolutely unbelievable to me. I can't fathom why anyone would have thought that would've been a good idea. I can certainly see them using the first three books as an indicator as to what the demand/potential success of a Heresy series would be. Are you sure they weren't talking about a commitment to an initial trilogy with follow-on titles to be determined by sales? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4187365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted October 4, 2015 Share Posted October 4, 2015 In a blog post from May 2006, a month after Horus Rising was published (April 2006), Dan Abnett writes: The Horus heresy isn't a trilogy. The first three book interlock to set the series up. There will be more. I will do more. A simple google search with the dates set to 2006 reveals this... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314222-the-horus-heresy-a-stream-of-consciousness-review/#findComment-4187812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.