The Horus Heresy: A Stream of Consciousness Review

[Marshal Rohr]

Petty complaint time!

 

Don't be that way. I told you, this isn't exactly going to be Masterpiece Review. There are going to be a lot of random posts about random observations.

 

So let's talk power armour racks. As in, the racks on which the power armour of Space Marines hang in many a story.

How I hate the mere mention of those racks. Had I ever compiled a list of things that ruin my suspension of disbelief where Warhammer 40k/Horus Heresy tales are concerned, power armour racks would almost certainly make the top five. Easily.

 

The first time I read the term "power armour rack", the mental image that immediately sprang to mind was a damn coat rack from a department store. I haven't been able to shake it since. I could be reading an absolute masterpiece by the very best to have graced this setting, but the second I spot the words "armour rack", I picture pieces of power armour awkwardly hanging off some mundane little contraption - like there's a clearance sale of the stuff on the Vengeful Spirit.

 

I know, I know. Tough customer. Hard to please. Stay with me.

 

One of the first images Warhammer 40k images I saw was from the old Index Astartes I article, on the creation of Space Marines:

 

http://redelf.narod.ru/p/w40k_ia_roi_4.jpg

 

I loved it. It got me hooked in the setting.

 

This image didn't just depict the process of a Space Marine putting on power armour; this was a religious ceremony on display. And there's an even better one, where, like, twenty artificers and/or servitors are girding a Veteran battle-brother in Terminator armour for war. That, to me, was Warhammer 40k. All those fabulously dystopian litanies and prayers you get in the core rulebooks were made for these pictures. When you're chanting about making your hate the shield of your soul (or whatever), you better have a small cabal of fanatics and their lobotomized assistants making an absolute ritual out of the process of putting on your socks.

 

Now I get that the above informs the forty-first millennium more so than the thirty-first one, but I'm sticking by my guns. Loken should not be wheeling out a rack from a "small, shadowy alcove". Warrior of a secular Imperium or no, I expect the private arming chamber of a Captain of the Legiones Astartes to look something like this:

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-l63VYb11HMM/VW3VYr2qs2I/AAAAAAAA0ZQ/ofN5v8SGspY/s640/spacemarine.PNG

 

(In this case, we're talking Cthonian-born Luna Wolves, so I expect it to also be dark, lit by a bunch of braziers, and with crude gang-glyphs carved right next to elegant friezes of Imperial eagles and Eyes of Horus).

 

I get that Loken is a humble guy and that he's not the sort to have an entourage around whilst striking dramatic poses while parts of power armour are about to be put on him in incorrect sequence. But maybe there's a happy compromise that doesn't remind me of the sort of thing my friends and I would build in Afghanistan and Iraq to keep our body armor free of sand:

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2530/3976329688_d5c89955f5_m.jpg

 

Maybe Mersadie Oliton's perspective should be less, "I just walked into the boot room of a football club and I'm going to say hi to the captain of the team" and more, "Ah, crap. I just walked into a shrine to war and post-human savagery, didn't I? I sincerely hope Captain Torgaddon was serious about Captain Loken being reasonable and approachable, and that my cybernatically-elongated skull is not about to be mounted somewhere in here."

 

Man, I'm tired.

That's a lot of square footage to simply store armor.

[Phoebus]

We are talking about warships that are literally kilometers long (and, in some sections, close a kilometer or more tall and wide, as well). Space for a few hundred warriors is not at a premium. Also, again, it's not just about storing armour.

[Kol Saresk]

Except those ships were originally designed to be jammed pack full of Space Marines and the crew compliment on top, compared to 40K when those same ships instead only house a single company of one hundred. Space is a premium in 30K, not so much in 40K. I mean heck, the bar the remembrancers went was a literal hole in the wall that sat between bulkheads IIRC. Real premium space there.

 

And remember when Horus was injured in False Gods and the corridors were so full of soldiers and remembrancers that the Sons had to crush them underfoot to get to the Apothecarion?

 

Everything in 40K is the same size as everything in 30K. The difference is that the Chapters are nothing compared to the Legions. I mean heck, a single Word Bearers strike cruiser can house something in the neighborhood of 2,000 Astartes. Talk about claustrophobic. The difference in scale is not size, it is numbers.

[HeritorA]

'We are talking about warships that are literally kilometers long' Wraight 'Hrafnkel' has internal forges on 5km territory, lol

[HeritorA]

Phoebus

Petitioners has an answer, but in general i told you what the main mind behind the HH told us at events. Then the stuff became ultra successful - will you stop? Nope - you will use every yota to make the profit from it - and that's exactly what they are doing now

[b1soul]

I guess if the original trilogy did terribly...they might have cut the series short at the end of the trilogy

[HeritorA]

b1soul - they didn't thought and that genuine info that HH books would become such a blast and will have more followers then W40K at times. New /old direction with limited novellas and shorts instead of fully committed novels - that's absolutely different beast. The problem is - main sales managers at GW doesn't understand that people was buying novel books (hardback/paperbacks) cause the serie was good and not stalling then. Now it is 1 novel a year (Deathfire for 2015) and a lot of novellas and reprints. All the advertisement is now based upon changing the cover and range - hardback to legendary to premium to whatever. And due to the fact that people are buying same novels again and again in different formats, that will never end. 

 

I dont want to be all that gloom - but i don't see it 's improving  in the nearest future. 

[Phoebus]

Except those ships were originally designed to be jammed pack full of Space Marines and the crew compliment on top, compared to 40K when those same ships instead only house a single company of one hundred. Space is a premium in 30K, not so much in 40K. I mean heck, the bar the remembrancers went was a literal hole in the wall that sat between bulkheads IIRC. Real premium space there.

Kol, in this specific case, we're talking about a Primarch's flagship... and a Captain. I'm not proposing that every battle-brother has his own armorium. I'm proposing that "armor rack" is - to be blunt - a trite and underwhelming way to describe this.

 

Beyond that, I don't necessarily agree with your supporting evidence. The corridors of the Vengeful Spirit were packed because a mortally-wounded Horus had returned and everyone wanted to see him. Do you really want me to go through each novel and cite for you the many, many instances where these ships aren't just not crowded, but where tremendous amounts of real estate are devoted to museums, triumphal avenues, etc.?

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, they do have entire spaces devoted to hige, giant, social areas. And yet, when you get to Curze's own private room, it isn't described as being this big, opulent place. In fact, I'd wager it was the size of a meat locker. Pun intended. Perturabo's "living quarters" are a small study that, IIRC, were cluttered with little Da Vinci-esque artwork and inventions. Fulgrim, had a small gallery where he had two completed statues while working on a third with various paintings fighting each other just sit on the floor and lean against the wall.

 

Talos, the vaunted Prophet, on two different ships, one of which he was the leader of the warband, had a room that was big enough for him to sit on the floor and have a bed. Lucius the Eternal, in Reflection Crack'd, had a small room with a bed and a storage locker at the foot of it where he kept his trophies. Mercutian, managed to fit a desk into his room. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he just used a clipboard on his bed.

 

What you are expecting is that in 30K, everyone has a captain's quarters. This ain't Star Trek. Only the Primarchs and, in the ships where there were no Primarchs, the commanding officer got the captain's quarters. Everyone else just got living space. Marduk had the luxury of being super-important that he had a small chapel all to himself basically.

 

The reality is you're taking a picture, that in context, is a Space Marine being prepped for war by the tech-priest and serfs inside the armory, and then wrenching it out of context and trying to force it into this:

http://thewalkingtourists.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IMG_0521-300x225.jpg

 

Because you think it should be this:

http://thewalkingtourists.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IMG_0521-300x225.jpg

 

And yes I am comparing your view to Star Trek because other than yachts and luxury cruise liners, I have never hears of a ship, especially a battle ship that gave everyone and their dog a penthouse suite. Heck, half the time the writer is making it luxurious by giving everyone their own quarters instead of making them live in something like this:

 

The background tells us the Space Marines spend private time in their living quarters and then suit for war in the armorium, an area completely separate from their living quarters. Loken is being afforded a luxury by him just having a suit of armor in his quarters when it should be locked up in the armorium being maintained by the tech-priests. And the only reason he has his there with him is because he maintains it and he repaints it if a repainting is necessary.

 

So if you feel absolutely necessary to pull up every single example of a living space aboard a Space Marine vessel from Horus' pet remembrancer to the little Thousand Son from Battle for the Abyss who had an entire ship to himself to anyone else, feel free.

 

30K was a culture that celebrated war. That meant they made corridors being enough for tanks just so they could have parades down the main processional just to show. Some of those ships had entire hangars devoted to Titans. And then you get the musuems which show off the spoils of war earned by the entire fighting force. And everything else. Yes, there was a lot of useless space. But then you get armories that are ready to suit hundreds, if not thousands of Astartes, simultaneously, at a moment's notice, in time to park in orbit, fire a fifteen minute barrage and then begin launching drop pods and gunships while also having vehicle bays devoted to Dreadnoughts, tanks, Land Speeders and bikes. With some of those tanks and gunships being absolutely ridiculous in size I might add, considering the Land Raider is supposed to be a mobile fortress and the Stormbird can carry one hundred Marines, and there's supposed to be a fleet of each aboard one ship. And that's not even counting the ships that carry the Land Raiders and the Titans down to battle.

 

In 30K, living space was a premium because of the sheer numbers involved combined with the spartan mentality of "you don't need comfort space because you are a genetically engineered weapon created for one, single purpose and it is not to surround yourself with a library or a painting gallery, despite what the Primarchs think." You sleep in your quarters, you get dressed for battle in the armory. That's it. You don't have Dress As so you don't need room for them and since your kevlar is supposed to be in the armory with all your weapons, you don't need a little Iron Man contraption that can dress you while you sleep standing up.

 

In 40K, the sudden freedom of space instead becomes translated to a warrior-monk lifestyle. Your living quarters are now a prayer cell where you also get to sleep and eat. Your armor and weapons are in the temple known as the armorium and when you get ready for battle, that is the altar before which you kneel as the tech-priests and Chapter serfs anoint your body with oil before dressing you in the holy raiment of ceramite and adamantium and arming you with bolter in one hand and sword/axe/energized fist in/on the other.

 

That's how it works. It wasn't meant to be super realistic and the only reason 40K is considered sci-fi and not fantasy is simply because there is technology. The genre is supposed to be so steeped in mysticism and mythology that it makes Paradise Lost look like a normal sunday morning in that moment between when you wake up and you realize you shouldn't have partied so hard last night.

[Phoebus]

Kol Saresk,

 

Let's first state the obvious.

 

This topic, the very purpose of it, is for me to offer my musings. You're free to disagree with them, of course, but right now you're trying to tell me how "wrong" said musings are by way of exaggerations that have nothing to do with what I stated (see below) and generalizations that, honestly, don't serve your points (see below as well). 

 

So, quick warning: the approach you've shown thus far is not appreciated.

 

Yeah, they do have entire spaces devoted to hige, giant, social areas. And yet, when you get to Curze's own private room, it isn't described as being this big, opulent place. In fact, I'd wager it was the size of a meat locker. Pun intended. Perturabo's "living quarters" are a small study that, IIRC, were cluttered with little Da Vinci-esque artwork and inventions. Fulgrim, had a small gallery where he had two completed statues while working on a third with various paintings fighting each other just sit on the floor and lean against the wall.

 

What you're arguing is neither here nor there where my humble opinion is concerned. That is to say, it has nothing to do with the notion that an armor rack is underwhelming. To me. You seem to think that I'm not entitled to this opinion because of some vague, entirely unqualified notion of space restrictions. You don't really have an answer for grand promenades, opera halls, auditoriums given over to cultural briefings, etc., other than doubling down and saying that, well, some Primarchs also don't have spacious quarters.

 

That certain Primarchs didn't have extensive apartments or what have you doesn't invalidate what I'm saying. It's just stating the obvious: that different people have different needs. The Lion, for instance, has a throne room. Angron could give a toss about having spacious quarters, but his Astartes predecessor had a chamber large enough for him to be able to effectively hide in it and ambush Khârn over and over.

 

Beyond that, it's not as if Curze's or Perturabo's "quarters" are also their arming chambers or what have you. That's simply your assumption.

 

Talos, the vaunted Prophet, on two different ships, one of which he was the leader of the warband, had a room that was big enough for him to sit on the floor and have a bed. Lucius the Eternal, in Reflection Crack'd, had a small room with a bed and a storage locker at the foot of it where he kept his trophies. Mercutian, managed to fit a desk into his room. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he just used a clipboard on his bed.

I don't dispute that this is the case; I'm stating that I don't like it.

 

What you are expecting is that in 30K, everyone has a captain's quarters.

No, not at all. I would like for Captains to have Captains' quarters. More accurately, I would like for Captains to have less underwhelming arming chambers. I do, however, find it interesting that you extrapolated such an inaccurate idea from my words.

 

And yes I am comparing your view to Star Trek because other than yachts and luxury cruise liners, I have never hears of a ship, especially a battle ship that gave everyone and their dog a penthouse suite.

First, I would hope you haven't heard of a ship of this sort. Last I checked, the 21st century is short of strike cruisers and battle barges ranging from three to eight kilometers in length (and presumably greater dimensions for the flagships of Primarchs).

 

Secondly, if our level of discourse is going to continuously feature rude generalizations such as the one above, let's please call it a day.

 

Finally, while I appreciate the effort you put in capturing the realities of life aboard a warship of the Legiones (and, later, Adeptus) Astartes, I hope you'll note by now that while you're focused on the average battle-brother and mundane logistical realities I was focused on a Captain - and the visual impact and resonance certain images can have on a reader.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, I apologize for replying to kind with kind it's a bad habit.

 

And I don't think your musings were wrong, just misinformed. It seemed like you were taking something that happens on one part of the ship and then using it to inform what should happen on another part of the ship.

 

And yes, I was focusing on the life of an "average battle brother" and ignoring the fact that Loken behaved like an average battle brother, here's why. Aboard the Vengeful Spirit, the officer cadre we are given is Horus Lupercal, Horus Aximand, Maloghurst, Falkus Kibre, Ekaddon, Tarik Torgaddon, Abaddon, Iacton Qruze, Hastur Sejanus(and replacement), Garviel Loken, that Lord Commander they assassinate in False Gods, and the actual captain of the Vengeful Spirit who has gone unnamed so far in the series IIRC. Out of that group, at least four deserve to get Captain's or VIP quarters before Loken does. Horus because he is the Primarch, Abaddon because he is the First Captain, the Lord Commander because he controls the entirety of the mortal forces and the captain of the Vengeful Spirit because frankly, it is his/her ship. So in the grand scheme of the hierarchy, Loken is the equivalent of a Butter Bar Lieutenant. Maybe a First Lieutenant if that distinction exists in 30K between Company Captains.

 

Now, you can sarcastically make fun of me using 21st Century engineering to dictate living space aboard a 31st/41st Millenium vessel, but here's the thing. Just like I did, the actual writers of the setting are going to use real world settings to determine mundane things like living spaces. Actually, since many of them seem to be romantics, they're going to be worse and probably use something like Pirates of the Carribean as an influence, which means the Captain's Quarters would end up being a glorified studio apartment.

 

But what this also means is that there is only going to be one Captain's Quarters aboard the ship and maybe, if the writer feels so inclined, a few VIP suites.

 

So yes, you are allowed your musings that Loken should have his museum of trophies versus a simple armor rack. Just as I am allowed to have my musings that the setting has always sacrificed living space for grandiose social areas and as a result, it makes sense to me that a very humble Captain who is one of several aboard a single ship and decides to keep his power armor in his quarters instead of the armorium where the setting says it should be kept and as a result, he keeps it an armor rack.

 

You choose to allow your real-world expectations for how you believe the setting should be to influence whether or not you like it. That's fine.

 

I don't. I look at the setting according to the context it provides. Maybe that makes me simple minded. But to me it means I can jump from 40K to 30K to the Dresden Files to Dungeons and Dragons to Dune to Star Trek and Star Wars and look at each setting according to the rules it provides without trying to force my expectations onto it.

 

As a result, I look at the setting and see Loken as being one of several "captains", and not even the most senior ranked one at that, and it makes absolute sense he has a simply, monastic cell.

 

You see it differently. You see "captain" and then expect all the privileges afforded by the rank.

 

We are both allowed those views. But we both should also realize that our views do not dictate the setting and that it is entirely the other way around.

[Phoebus]

Kol Saresk,

 

First things first. I was in no way trying to be sarcastic or rude with my original post. If that's what you got out of it, then I apologize.

 

Next, I don't think the "VIP" treatment, as you call it, is necessarily something that would be restricted to a select few individuals. When I picture the Vengeful Spirit, I imagine each of the Companies aboard has its own dedicated section of the vessel - to include barracks for the battle-brothers, training cages, and, yeah, something like that image I pulled from the latest Codex: Space Marines, albeit with more secular trappings.

 

On a different note, I was surprised by your comparison of Loken to a "butter bar lieutenant". That term is used to refer to a junior officer with comparatively minimal experience. Loken is not only a highly-experienced warrior, but, being the commander of three hundred Luna Wolves, he has been obviously promoted at least a couple of times. The organization of the XVI Legion is not entirely clear, but if we go by Horus Heresy 1: Betrayal, the size of his command falls somewhere between that of a Company and a Battalion. His authority, however, appears to be closer to that wielded by a Lieutenant Commander (Battalion command) and Lord Commander (Chapter command). At any rate, the only ranks between him and First Captain Abaddon would appear to be ceremonial ones - such as being a member of the Mournival, or a confidante of the Primarch, like Maloghurst.

 

Where the author's determinations of a ship's space is concerned, I'm afraid I'll have to disagree once more. Again, you apply one standard on quarters, but a completely different one on other spaces. The authors thus far have clearly employed a very liberal license as to how much space can be devoted to a number of different functions.

 

You're of course more than entitled to your own musings and vision. That was never a point of contention.

 

You mention "real world expectations". In what way have real world expectations intruded on what I feel is apropos regarding an arming chamber for a Captain of the Luna Wolves serving aboard his Primarch's flagship? In what way am I trying to dictate the setting? Because I mused out loud (so to speak) that I find an armor rack underwhelming, and that I would find an imposing arming chamber visually appealing and apropos for a warrior possessing that rank and glory?

[Kol Saresk]

I call Loken a butter bar not because I believe him to be new or inexperienced but because we never really see portrayed as actually being in command of his company, we always see him in charge of one squad. Even in the battle of the Whisperheads, it was as though the 16th Company decided before hand how to attack and then just went to it. There was no control or concern for the overall battle beyond "are we winning?"

 

Granted, that could just be poor representation.

 

And yes and no. Like you said, because he is a captain who obviously has a history as warrior and a leader, you expect that he should have some sort of grandiose flair that pays homage to this.

 

Me, I kind of expect his personal space to be representative of himself. Now that might sound hypocritical because as I've said, if the setting tells me to expect something and that becomes what I expect of the setting and until the Horus Heresy series began, the setting says the living quarters of Space Marines are basically private chapels while the rest of the ship is devoted to the creation and perpetuation of a roving warmachine, metaphorically. But when the setting makes a new rule that says you get to see a person's personal space, then like any normal person, I expect a person's personal space to be reflective of them.

 

Curze, it fits that his living quarters are filled with skinned corpses hanging from meat hooks hanging over an unused hololith projector. It makes sense for Fulgrim to have an art gallery.

 

And then that is where you and I seem to differ. If I am reading what you are saying properly, you expected Garviel Loken's position to dictate everything around him. I expect his personality to reflect that and as a result, viewing that surrounding lets us, the readers, become aware of who he is. He is portrayed as a humble warrior. Yes, he is a leader of men, but he doesn't see himself that way. He allows his sergeants to call him "Garvi". He joined the Mournival not because he wanted to but because he felt it was expected of him as a result of being handpicked for the job. He is a simple person who lives a simple life. And his simple arming chambers with the simple arming rack, reflect that.

 

In a way, I think my biggest surprise was finding out Lucius' personal quarters were a door, a bunk and a storage locker. Because Lucius seems like the kind of person who would have, or rather demand some sort of fanfare that just screams "Look at me! I am man! These are my accomplishments!"

 

But in a way, it makes sense. Lucius views himself as being a superior pedigree to everything around him and as a result, there is very little he views as being worth taking as a trophy. But on that same token, he is so selfish and jealous that whatever he does deem worthy he tries to hide from everyone by covering it with something mundane.

 

So, while I don't expect much, what I do expect is to be shown who the character is.

[Phoebus]

I think it may have been a while since you've read this novel as well, then.

Loken isn't simply introduced as a Company Captain, but within fifty (or so) pages you are told by Remembrancers, Primary Iterators, etc., that he is seasoned, considered the most steadfast of his peers, "chasing Abaddon" in his tally of glories, and has captured the attention of more than one Primarch. The departure ceremony for Whisperheads shows him marching at the head of three hundred Luna Wolves. Whether that is the totality of his force or not is unknown.

To the key paragraph of your post, if it were my book to write, I imagine I would have offered a compromise between the two options you give. That is to say, I expect a Captain of the Luna Wolves would have been afforded such a space long before Loken earned that rank, but that Loken himself would not have subscribed to all the pomp and circumstance associated with it. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not just the context of Garviel himself that we're talking about, but of the Imperium as well, and how it views the Legiones Astartes.

To the Imperium, Space Marines are larger-than-life heroes. This, I think, is shown in the vessels they built for them to reach the stars with, and in the monument-like features they built into them. You're right, many Space Marines are humble, aloof, and monkish in their outlook, and to them a lot of this is probably wasted. That having been said, Space Marines are not uniform in appearance and attitude, not even within a single Legion. Within the Luna Wolves, for instance, we see the four greatly differing personalities of the Mournival, as well as Sejanus, Sedirae, Targhost, Qruze, and Maloghurst - all of whom are described with vastly differing characters.

[HeritorA]

Well i agree with you Phoebus almost on all points. But whatever they are SM lords and Company captains need a lot of:

charts; modules; maps; devices; communication voxes etc. to successfully rule the chapter/company. So in my opinion that take a lot of place. So they should have a big cacptain quarters.

And Wolves on Hranfkel and their battleships have a lot of space to place totems, trophies, runes, blades etc. 

[Half Goat]

haha I love this thread. How fast can you read? looking forward to your insights on the rest of the series. 

I absolutely agree about the arming racks, it's one thing that has always stuck in my mind too. It always makes me think of samurai armour on those flimsy stands...just doesnt cut it for me. I also think it makes no sense as the armour is interlocking, so you would have to dismantle the set from the rack in order to assemble it on your body once again. Impractical...something astartes are definitely not.  I don't need a whole arming chamber, I get modest or higher ranking astartes having an alcove in their otherwise spartan chambers,  but at least something a bit more practical, and perhaps a semi automated system that cradles/charges/monitors the suits backpack, and a dormant servitor that can be summoned to assist as it must take an age to get the wargear on and practicality would require fast response arming in the event of sudden attack.

[Phoebus]

Two random thoughts... one probably won't spur any discussion, but the other might.

 

I don't know if I'm alone in this, but I find that Kyril Sindermann, Ignace Karkasy, Mersadie Oliton, and Euphrati Keeler work a lot better when they are just supporting characters interacting with one another normally, as opposed to when they are shown in their capacity as iterators, imagists, documentarists, poets, etc. They just seem much more convincing as people responding to the situations they find themselves in than as Remembrancers. By contrast, their prose, propaganda material, etc., just seems like an afterthought.

 

The other thing that interested me was something I remembered from Know No Fear, but had completely forgotten about in Horus Rising:
 

“Beyond their duties as iterators, senior counsellors like Sindermann were expected to conduct programmes of education for the Astartes. This had been ordered by the Warmaster himself. The men of the Legion spent long periods in transit between wars, and the Warmaster insisted they use the time to develop their minds and expand their knowledge. ‘Even the mightiest warriors should be schooled in areas beyond warfare,’ he had ordained. ‘There will come a time when war is over, and fighting done, and my warriors should prepare themselves for a life of peace. They must know of other things besides martial matters, or else find themselves obsolete.”

Excerpt From: Dan Abnett. “Horus Rising.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/trmZy.l

I didn't bat an eye when this idea was pitched as the musings of the Primarch of the Ultramarines - a legion whose relationship with the worlds they ruled was a hallmark of their culture and mindset. The notion amused me, however, when applied to the XVI Legion.

 

When you look beyond Horus Lupercal, you have a brotherhood of Space Marines whose origin story is that of murderous ganger clans hailing from a dying husk of an industrial world. Astartes indoctrination surely raises them to another plane of thought, but the likes of Ezekyle Abaddon, Kalus Ekaddon, Falkus Kibre, and Luc Sedirae, make me wonder if at the core of most of them isn't a brutal killer. Do their ethos amount to much more than "might makes right"?

 

And so I wonder what the Luna Wolves - later, Sons of Horus - thought of this initiative of Lupercal's. Especially those warlords named above. I doubt most of them would have the stones to tell their Primarch what they really thought, but I can only imagine what they were like during seminars with the likes of Kyril Sindermann. Loken is the Straight Arrow Garro type: the nice guy, the Space Marine who kills as needed to but finds it in him to question whether it was necessary (if only after the fact). He's not going to rock the boat. He's going to open up and take Sindermann seriously. I want to see what Luc Sedirae, the handsome rogue who always looks as if he's about to bite something, would be like during hour-long discourses on ethical studies. More importantly, I'd like to see what someone with an unabashedly, unashamedly warrior mentality would have to say about serving the Imperium in a non-martial capacity.

 

Could Remus Ventanus have become something other than a warrior? Yes, he could have. Guilliman benefited in this regard by inheriting an ordered, civilized world populated by human beings who felt responsibility toward one another and their society as a whole. The apex that he could aspire to within his Legion - that is, the rank of a Tetrarch of Ultramar - was one that involved governorship every bit as much as military command.

 

Sedirae, though? Survival and nihilism informed the Cthonians, not any sort of vision for the society they belonged to.  Actually, forget Ventanus, Sedirae probably couldn't even summon the twisted sense of justice the likes of Zso Sahaal could. Even the idea of enforcing a brutal vigilante brand of justice would probably be beyond him. The notion of protecting weak people from strong people? Laughable. Had there never been a Horus Heresy, I imagine the likes of Sedirae would have eventually started revolts of their own. Bereft of a war to wage, they would have turned on those they served, inventing reasons to fight.

[Dantay VI]

I actually quite like this idea for the armoured rack:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjaYW5Cnr5k

[b1soul]

My 2 cents...

 

Absolutely disagree with Kol's claim that Loken is a butter bar captain

 

Loken's performance has been superlative throughout his career. The novel almost directly states this.

 

He's not your average captain. His exemplary record is a major reason behind his selection to join the mournival.

 

Loken...however...has a HUMBLE, likeable personality...so if you don't read carefully, it's east to think that he's just some average captain with a great honor thrust upon him suddenly.

 

Oh yeah, another point...Loken commands his company but he has his personal squad. Not sure why the fact that he has his own personal squad is a sign of being a "butter bar". I guess you could categorise Loken as a line captain before his elevation, but he'd be an exemplary line captain

[HeritorA]

b1soul - awesome conclusions

[Vorenus]

Phoebus:  I've been thinking of starting the whole series over soon, too, so I'm enjoying this thread.  I am currently almost finished reading book 28, and I already own books 29 and 30 and will get to them in the next month or so (I'm reading  a lot of other stuff too, I don't usually read books from the same series back to back, I like to space them out more with other stuff).  However, if/when I do re-read the series, I intend to skip the books that I did not enjoy as much.  I will probably skip books 6, 8, 11, 13, 18, 21, and 26.  (The titles for those books are, in order, DESCENT OF ANGELS, BATTLE FOR THE ABYSS, FALLEN ANGELS, NEMESIS, DELIVERANCE LOST, FEAR TO TREAD, and VULKAN LIVES.)  Some of these books are pretty much rubbish, others are not so bad but are kind of boring.  So I was wondering if you intend to skip any of the books?  If so, which ones?

[b1soul]

I gave up on some books the first time...tried to re-read but to no avail

 

This thread has inspired me to attempt a selective re-reading

 

There is no point to attempting to slog through books like Fear to Tread again

[HeritorA]

Vorenus - never, even under the threat of death try to read 'Deathfire'

[Phoebus]

Vorenus,

 

Nope, no skipping!  I did, at one point, want to do a chronological reading, but I was too tempted to read Horus Rising again.

[Phoebus]

I got through the Mournival induction scene last night. I keep forgetting just how good that was.

 

Anyways, I was going to type up thoughts on that particular scene this morning, but something else occurred to me when I tried to put thoughts to keyboard. This may have been cosmically obvious to other reasons, but, as this setting is explored and developed more over time, I feel that certain plot lines, characters, and scenes from past works gain more impact and resonance.

 

I think it's fair to say that, prior to Talon of Horus, the prevailing "mainstream perception" of Abaddon the Despoiler was that of a megalomaniacal brute. What few appearances of him we got over the years granted the Warmaster of Chaos little personality or character. He was, in my humble opinion, little more than "The Threat". Thus, when Talon of Horus was released, I was delighted by the portrayal of a more thoughtful, nuanced Ezekyle Abaddon... but I'll admit to feeling like he was a little out of place. I liked the fact that Aaron Dembski-Bowden sought to "rehabilitate" the character, but it almost seemed like the efforts were made out of whole cloth.

 

Fast forward to the Mournival induction scene.

 

I confess to forgetting Abaddon's part in this scene, and re-reading it was kind of a revelation. Pre-Heresy Ezekyle Abaddon is almost certainly brutal in his execution of war; he may very well be about as blunt as we assume when he is dealing with whom he  disagrees. What we got in this scene, however, was a fair and thoughtful individual who celebrates in the brotherhood he shares with his fellow warriors. My (obviously limited) memory of the series tells me that Abaddon is gradually returned to the pre-existing stereotype (bellicose, aloof, almost contrary - perhaps for the sake of being so) over subsequent titles, but I found it interesting that this was how the future Warmaster was first shown. Maybe I'm reaching here, but I wonder how much - if at all - this scene influenced Dembski-Bowden in his own portrayal of Abaddon.