Legion Troops types Tactica talk

[GreyCrow]

Hello guys !

 

So, I'm getting closer and closer to start an Heresy army... I'm less and less loving 40k's Space Marines and 30k seems to give me the flexibility I need :)

 

Now, we all know that the core of any army is the Troops. Troops (and especially in Heresy games due to the lack of access to gear) seem to be mainly geared for board control (objectives grabbing) and putting bodies on the army. On the other hand, the rest of the FOC choices offer the main source of killing power to help the Troops do their jobs.

 

I'd love to get your opinion on each Troops type (including these units that can be made Troops through Rites of War), weighing their pros and cons in terms of board control first and foremost, then delving deeper into their other abilities. Support Squads can be discussed here.

Thanks for sharing your experience ! And hopefully I'll join your ranks soon enough (finally :) ).

 

Here's what I managed to theorize from the "regular" Troops choices (including POTL lists), I'll be comparing the basic loadouts rather than the upgrades in these points :

 

1) Tactical Squads : They're a very generalistic Troops type, but they are mainly geared for shooting over assault and are probably the one with the most efficient killing power to points ratio due to Fury of the Legion. I really feel that they're meant for a slow tactical advance rather than relying on mobility. Due to them not being supremely good in melee (and thus can't wipe out units), Fury of the Legion is very good to level the playing field.

 

2) Assault Squad : So, losing the good Firepower of the Tactical Squad, they double their base mobility and gain the ability to Deep Strike, along with getting a better melee punch. It seems that while they really lose out on the ability to apply damage (due to such a short range), they really gain in their ability to position accordingly, avoid traps and be more responsive overall.

 

3) Breacher Squads : These guys strike me as wanting to be an "in your face" type of Troops, to secure a position then hold the ground, especially against melee oriented units, due to their boarding shield. They aren't more resilient about shooting however (except against some form of blast and templates that don't ignore their armour), so they really seem to want to push the enemy back, secure a position that doesn't really make them vulnerable to shooting, then weather the return assault.

I do feel they're a bit too specialized to be points effective in standard Heresy Games, and that they're better suited to Zone Mortalis battles, but again I may be wrong.

 

4) Tactical Support Squad : Pretty straightforward, mobile short/medium range special weapons squads that can capture objectives and do some fire support. Pretty solid Troops choice in order to cover the advance of your own Troops.

 

5) Reconnaissance Squads : So, their standard statline and gear aren't really that amazing compared to the other Troops choices to be fair in terms of killing power. They do seem like a good support squad due to Scout (and maybe Infiltrate) that gets the ability to provide some very nice positioning support to the army. Nuncio Vox for keeping Barrage Weapons hidden or ensure a Dropsite seems to me like their key effective upgrade. Very cheap way to have multiple Melta Bombs as well, but their deployment options and other wargear don't really help out with that, due to not being able to charge on the turn they Outflank or Scout/Infiltrate. And being relatively immobile, with a weapon selection that is quite bad, I'm not really sure they're that interesting with Melta Bombs (because they get relatively expensive and with their lack of reach, I'm not sure the Melta Bombs will be that useful).

 

6) Veteran Tactical Squads (POTL) : Pretty much the same gameplay as Tactical Squads, except that they are very flexible to adapt best to the strengths of the Legion, and swap Fury for a set of USR better suited to their gear. Quite an interesting unit !

 

7) Terminator Squads : So, they seem like Heavy Troops that really shine in Assault where they won't eat to much AP2 to the face. Customizable to bring very specialised firepower so they can operate with even less support. An interesting unit overall !

 

___

 

The board is yours :)

[Fangbanger]

I disagree with your comment about tacs. I'll have 20 in a spartan with a hero or character and Chaplin please not to mention the apothecary for fnp 5+.

 

Being a world eater, that's 80 attacks on the charge with re-rolls fearless

 

With so many high strength ap3/2 pie plates about and thud guns, standing out in the open doing fury is not appealing to me

[Gorgoff]

Hello and welcome to the Horus Heresy. I guess there is a thread for every unit you meantioned allready at this board just have a look. There your answeres. :)

[Terminus]

I'm assuming we're speaking generic choices, since Legion choice can really alter the value of the various units. I think it's also important to distinguish whether you are playing Age of Darkness games, or are cross-playing 30K/40K. If you are playing Age of Darkness, all of the troops are more important because they are pretty much the only ones who can score outside of most Legion Terminators and a few special units here and there. In base 7th 40K, the only perk troops get is objective secured, you can just take the two compulsory units and then focus on the killier stuff in the other FOC slots.

 

There is a reason the most popular troop choice is the 10-man tactical squad in a rhino. It has some protection and extra mobility from the transport, scores/secures objectives, and in a pinch can Fury similar mooks, all at about 200 points, give or take. No, they aren't as good as scout squads in land speeder storms when it comes to economic and efficient scoring units, but it is what it is. Hell, the much-maligned 40K tactical squad would probably be the best troop choice in the game in a Heresy setting.

 

To make the large foot-slog blob work, you usually need an apothecary and a line of Sv2+ characters to catch the plethora of AP3 shots that will be coming their way, and even then you probably want a big transport (as in the above Sons of Horus example). Regardless, you'll probably be building your list around only one such unit since you're probably spending close to 500 points after characters and before transport.

 

Assault Squads are criminally costed and are a Rule of Cool unit. You're paying 10 points per jump pack (Codex marines pay 3), and ironically can't take a Vexilla so are more likely to bolt from close combat. Again you're dealing with a bunch of Sv3+ dudes on foot (with the added bonus of taking dangerous terrain tests when leaving/entering terrain), and can't even bring an Apothecary along, so you definitely need those extra bodies and some characters to boot. Again you're taking a ~500-point unit, so again probably not likely to field more than one of these.

 

Breachers are another Rule of Cool unit who are paying a mandatory premium for void hardened armour (instead of it being an option for zone mortalis games). Some people advocate using them as tank hunters out of an assault vehicle. You're looking at a little over 400 points with dreadclaw, 2 meltas, combi-melta, and meltabombs. I can potentially see a use for this in larger games where there will be LoWs or other large, equally-costed targets for them to take out. Meltabombs and boarding shields make them good at dealing with walkers/MCs, but those could very well just run away and there's no catching them with your -1 to run/charge rolls. Regardless, it's a scoring unit in their deployment zone that they have to deal with ASAP.

 

So basically when you're talking compulsory troop choices, the bare-bones tactical squad is probably your best generic choice. You can build big uber units as above, and they will look cool, but probably will not be anywhere near as effective as an equivalent amount of points in elites or heavy support.

 

As far as non-compulsory choices, Caliver Support Squads are brutal at 225 points for 20 S6 deflagrate shots at 30". Smaller plasma/melta squads can work if you can give them drop pods to deliver their payload. Recon squads have no real niche to fill.

 

If we're talking Rites of War, Veterans can outdo the above Breacher unit for 50 points less, and bring Tank Hunter, an extra attack and access to power weapons/serpentas on top. Or you can take them in my personal favorite configuration, 5 guys with a heavy bolter and Sniper tactics. <150 points for a scoring unit that can threaten anything with a toughness value (and we're seeing more monstrous creature "vehicles" than ever).

 

Terminators are just plain awesome in Age of Darkness no matter which slot they fill. They always score, and they are one of the few units in the game that are cheaper than their 40K equivalent, while everything else is typically much more expensive. Add some very flexible weapon options and Cataphractii armour, and this renders them actually balanced and a very solid choice. Some of the special varieties of Terminators are serious power choices.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Going to point out a common misconception. If using the 30k FOC (3 HQ, 4 elites) in a game of 7th/cross over/whatever you want to call it then only the units with implacable advance get objective secured; troops only get the rule in a CAD or Allied detachment. Or of course from some of the newer detachments that slap it onto everything, but my point still stands, the detachment needs to actually give it to you, which the AoD doesn't

[WolfOfHorus]

Veterans with Meltas Bombs in a Dreadclaw are amazing. Gonna keep preaching that until I stop playing.

[GreyCrow]

@Skimask : interesting point ! When playing in pure Legion vs Legion though, if I read correctly, only Troops are scoring, right ?

[Caillum]

Playing "Battles in the Age of Darkness" rules means ignoring the whole "Choosing Your Army" section of the 40k 7th Ed Rulebook.

 

If you're playing vs 30k, you should follow the "Battles in the Age of Darkness" rules. Units that count as scoring are dependent on the mission. The new Mechanicum Red Book and Book V: Tempest cover the 6 missions. Generally, scoring units are:

1 - Troops,

2 - any unit with "Implacable Advance" (in missions where Troops are scoring),

3 - any unit specifically called out as being a scoring unit (ie. Maloghurst when he is the Warlord, in missions where Troops are scoring).

There are exceptions, like Red Butchers in a "Pride of the Legion" list, but these will also be called out specifically.

 

If playing vs 40k, you should follow the "Choosing Your Army" rules from the BRB, using a Battle-forged army. Then all units will be scoring. Units with "Objective Secured" are:

1 - Troops,

2 - units with "Implacable Advance".

Personally, I would also include the 3rd type from 30k, as it makes sense.

[WolfOfHorus]

@Skimask

Laughed hard at that one, now I'm imagining Corax with a Ski Mask like Jason in Friday the 13th.

 

As for the topic, DO NOT take Recon Squads, they are not even worth it for Melta Bombs. Everything about the unit is overpriced.

[SkimaskMohawk]

@caillum no, only units with implacable advance get OS. I literally just explained why 3 posts above you :/

[Caillum]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. When playing Legions in 30k, you follow the rules for 30k "Battles in the Age of Darkness". When playing Legions in 40k, you follow the rules for 40k "Battle-forged armies". The two are mutually exclusive from one another.

 

Page 159 of Book V: Tempest

ARMY SELECTION/FORCE ORGANISATION CHARTS

Battles in the Age of Darkness as shown in our existing Horus Heresy volumes and this book use their own missions and special core Force Organisation charts as well as special optional charts. These replace the standard Battle-forged army system which is presented in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook and are intended to be used in conjunction with the missions and campaign systems found in Forge World's Horus Heresy volumes and the core Battle in the Age of Darkness missions that are provided here. Specific formations, detachments, etc, which are not found in the Horus Heresy volumes should not be used in Battle in the Age of Darkness games.

 

So, in 30k only the 3 unit types I mentioned are scoring. ObSec doesn't exist, not even on Allies, because it's a 40k Battle-forged rule. If you want to play Legions vs 40k armies, then you don't get the bonus HQ and Elite slot from the special Force Org, or access to Onslaught or Castellan - you use a CAD.

 

Edit: We really need this and other things compiled into a "Before you post" sticky in the army list forum.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Right, what I was saying is that if you use the AoD foc vs 40k you don't get OS except on implacable advance, if you use a CAD you do. What you had said originally was a blanket statement of "if you play against 40k you get OS on troops"; the above quote from tempest doesn't force you to use a CAD vs 40k, simply that you can't use 40k stuff in Battles in the Age of Darkness (I can understand if the confusion is stemming from the fact the FOC has a similar name, but a Battle in the Age of Darkness =/= the age of darkness foc)

[Caillum]

Yeah, I get where I may have insinuated that, but it wasn't intentional. Actually, I'm inclined to think that using the AoD foc in 40k isn't allowed - it's almost pointless, it's from a different system and allowing it is purely a house-ruled option anyway.

 

But I understand that many areas haven't got a dedicated 30k scene, so having a way to play vs 40k is absolutely necessary. I'd just run CADs though. It's hard to define the rules when the systems (intentionally) don't mesh together smoothly. :)

 

On point though, I updated the Veterans Tactica thread I started earlier, so would be good to discuss them further!

[SkimaskMohawk]

The argument to be made against the "different system" is that they explicitly stop it from leaking into 30k for battles in the Age of Darkness. There's no restriction on taking detachments in the brb (in fact there's very little restrictions for anything lol) or anything else in the 30k books, so there you go

[helterskelter]

As I don't believe it's been mentioned yet, I'll throw my lot in for Terror Squads, which can be made troops for the Night Lords via the ROW.

Now you've got your guys, very reasonably priced, with BP, ccw, preferred enemy:infantry, precision shot and precision strike,fear and infiltrate as standard. With the ROW if you fancy it you can pop them in a drop pod or a dreadclaw drop pod (can go in a dreadclaw without ROW also), if you didn't want to infiltrate them. So you have a pretty flexible unit in terms of getting where you want how you want.

Headsman has the usual AA upgrade option to help you take some hits, and can take a chainglaive/power weapon/fist, or 1 lightning claw, a nice little combat buff depending on your chosen target. Also if you still have night fight by your second turn and are in charge range, that +1 initiative in combat and +1 to wound if you outnumber your opponent gives you and even deadlier edge.

Further still in addition to your BP and ccw, you could take a volkite charger, bolter, heavy chain blade, or rotor cannon. Personally here, I take volkite due to more shots neat and deflagarate. Heightened chance of pulling of a precision shot and higher chance to wound over bolters as they are str. 5 albeit with shorter range.

A tooled up 10 man squad will set you back between 265 to 275 without transport, and needing 3 as your requirement due to the ROW, with your praetor or delegatus, that's your armies first 1000 points done and dusted.

Not too steep a price to pay for 30 flexible and rather deadly men I feel.

[Tychii]

For me, I feel like terror squads are over coated in that they fulfill a particular role. One of murdering infantry 3+ in save.

The issue I have is that do many of our other optiod do this as well, but can also tackle 2+ and tanks.

The problem I have with them is actually just that you need three of the units of you want them as troops.

 

I myself am putting a list together with them as allies, that way I can get terror assault for them but only require two, which is about the number of them I would want to take.

The unit being 300 points with transport is just too much to have tied up in something that can't deal with armour imo.

[Hesh Kadesh]

It is a 50/50 chance (slightly less tbh) of assaulting 3nr 10 man assault equipped units into an enemy line woth a RoW whose only penalty is that you can't take lots of Heavies. But you don't need to. A full Medusa squadron and a pair of Grav rapier batteries, with the nigh Ubiquitous scouting Breacher squad (attach a Vigilator), you now have 6-10 grav weapons, 3 barrage S10 blasts, and assault infantry who don't care about bubble wrap, and a 3rd HQ taken up by a Damocles, you are lethal, and if points remain, either a Typhon or Curze joined by a Triphys of Judgement JP centurion (only one man, because majority toughness and save) to give you a -4 fear test murder squad (take PFists/Meltabombs for Centurion).

 

Rpund off with a pair of Tactical squads in Drop Pods.

 

If anyone has seen why I rate NL so high, this is why. Terror Assault is incredibke. Like RG, and SoH, they get mass Deep Strikers without forgoing their legion strengths.

[Ishagu]

The best assault troop choice that can be unlocked, aside from Terminators, are the Ultramarines Invictarus Suzerains. 10 of these guys in Landraider will topple anything that isn't super high toughness in cc, and even then they always wound on a 6 regardless. Ap2 at initiative is still a blessed rarity.

[dansupvi]

It is a 50/50 chance (slightly less tbh) of assaulting 3nr 10 man assault equipped units into an enemy line woth a RoW whose only penalty is that you can't take lots of Heavies. But you don't need to. A full Medusa squadron and a pair of Grav rapier batteries, with the nigh Ubiquitous scouting Breacher squad (attach a Vigilator), you now have 6-10 grav weapons, 3 barrage S10 blasts, and assault infantry who don't care about bubble wrap, and a 3rd HQ taken up by a Damocles, you are lethal, and if points remain, either a Typhon or Curze joined by a Triphys of Judgement JP centurion (only one man, because majority toughness and save) to give you a -4 fear test murder squad (take PFists/Meltabombs for Centurion).

 

Rpund off with a pair of Tactical squads in Drop Pods.

 

If anyone has seen why I rate NL so high, this is why. Terror Assault is incredibke. Like RG, and SoH, they get mass Deep Strikers without forgoing their legion strengths.

 

dont mean to sound stupid, but does fear actually stack like that? 

[Caillum]

No, I really don't think it does. But the wording is different between Curze's "Sire of the Night Lords" and "King of Terrors" rules, so there's room for interpretation.

[Terminus]

I don't get the appeal of grav guns for Breachers. Is the idea to camp them in terrain?

[Sheesh Mode]

I don't get the appeal of grav guns for Breachers. Is the idea to camp them in terrain?

The idea is to counter enemy heavy vehicles while the Terror Squads advance. I've mixed feelings about his list. It makes up for its own failings pretty well by supporting anti-infantry with anti-armor firepower. But it has little to no power to stop deepstrike assaults and ravenguard alpha strikes. It's bloody intimidating for most armies, certainly, however there are clear flaws. 

 

Edit: How would the list fare against Mechanicum?

[Theredknight]

For me, I feel like terror squads are over coated in that they fulfill a particular role. One of murdering infantry 3+ in save.

The issue I have is that do many of our other optiod do this as well, but can also tackle 2+ and tanks.

The problem I have with them is actually just that you need three of the units of you want them as troops.

 

I myself am putting a list together with them as allies, that way I can get terror assault for them but only require two, which is about the number of them I would want to take.

The unit being 300 points with transport is just too much to have tied up in something that can't deal with armour imo.

Pahaha for those bonuses? They are under costed. Especially when lined up against other legion specific troops (palatine blades for one) who for a more costlier price get a heck of a lot less. They have to pay for +1 i in the first round (20pts I think) and additional weapon sets. They dont have any of the options nl do regards cover. They can take a spear wow.

300 for a unit and transport? Try 400+. For blades.

 

And their legion soecific rules suck when ranged v nl.

I run mine as pretty much a legion list with eidolon, EC units are to expensive and glass hammer like.

You can't take a nl army, then ally more night lords into it with the chart, if that what you thinking of doing?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Emperor's rule legion tactics "suck"; but that's not really an issue. Palatine Blades are pretty incredible. 

 

Palatine Blades; WS5, 2 Attacks base, WS6 in a challenge, Chosen Warriors, Rending, I5 charge for a minor cost, Crusader, Counter Attack = 235pts

Terror Squads; Preferred Enemy: Infantry (reroll to hit, reroll 1's to wound), Fear (~1/10 chance of getting +1 to hit/-1 to be hit), 2 Attacks base, Precise Shot and Strike, +1 to wound if outnumbering enemy in melee, +1Ld on base troopers = 185pts

 

As you can see, Terror Squads outclass Palatine Blades; even without Fear kicking in, rerolls to hit are mathematically better than +WS, (75% chance, rather than 66%). Rending and Counter Attack slightly picks up some of the slack, but for the additional 50pts (including the +1 Initiative upgrade, it can make all the difference (i.e, the squad picking up a power weapon and some volkite weaponry for the Terror Squad)

 

4 Attack per person charge = (I've included 9 men per squad, because they're both used well as a unit for a Character to join in with and jump out of an assault transport, like a Drop Pod, Dreadclaw or Phobos), 36 Attacks each.

 

Palatines; 24 hits, 12 wounds (of which 2 rend) = 5.333 MEQ dead

Terror Squad;27 hits, 14.625 wounds = 4.875 MEQ dead (assuming outnumbered)/27 hits, 19.5 wounds, 6.5 dead (assuming outnumber)

 

The differences; unless the Night Lords (assuming Terror Assault, because there is no other competitive way to play them) get the assault during Turn 2 (with a 41.6% chance of getting the +1 to Initiative on the assault), then not only are they recieving more attacks back from the enemy due to I4, but aren't killing as many (again, unless outnumbering), so next turn have to face the same number of attacks.

[AlphariusOmegon108]

Only problem in your calculations is that you forget, 99,9% of the palatine blade players upgrade them. power swords and pheonix spears everywhere, the palatine blade unit is rather bad with the normal weapons, they only work with upgrades, so its kinda unfair to have them in their worst version and then see who is better.