Legion Troops types Tactica talk

[Sanct]

Palatines

24 hits, 12 wounds (of which 4 rend) = 6.67 MEQ dead

 

Terror Squad

Assuming a failed fear test; 27 hits, 15.75 wounds = 5.25 MEQ dead (assuming outnumbered) OR 27 hits, 19.5 wounds, 6.5 MEQ dead (assuming outnumber)

Assuming a passed fear test; 21 hits, 12.25 wounds = 4.083 MEQ dead (assuming outnumbered)OR  21 hits,  15.75 wounds = 5.25 MEQ dead (assuming outnumber)

 

The chance to fail pass a fear test of a regular MEQ squad with ld9 is about 83.33% so some bad weighting of the damage you say the damage range would be 4.28-5.46 MEQ dead.  Say the overall damage is about 4.87 MEQ

 

You're paying 26% more points for the 9 palatines with screamers than the 9 terrors and the palatines are getting 37% more damage against the terror squads prime target.  Take it to non-infantry and the terrors would not perform as well

It is comparing lemons and limes since the terror squads main area lies as a early game dice thrower who can become a troop option.  Infiltrate with volkite chargers and PE is very nice.

The Palatines are going to be assaulting priority targets with a character as a specialised unit with a mix of power weapons/spears.

[Caillum]

Sanct, I assume you mean PASS Fear tests 83.33% of the time? :)

 

Both units probably have pretty different in playstyle, but I don't think we should discount either.

 

Phoenix power spears are the only way to go for Palatines, which bumps their cost up. But they'll be hitting the TEQs and other hard units. Sonic Shriekers sees them going first so they don't lose too many models, and therefore win combat. Jump Packs, while pricey, give them mobility, Hammer of Wrath and charge security. Otherwise they'll need an Assault Transport to get them into combat.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Volkite chargers are the most cost effective way to equip Terror Squads. A 10-man squad will kill 5 MEQs with them, followed up by another 6 from chainsword & bolt pistol attacks in Assault (you will now outnumber them). This increases with a failed Fear check, which you can boost to a -1 with Curze's passive ability, "Sire of the Night Lords" (you should always try to take him in Terror Assault). They're usually going to be Troops, with Drop Pods as a DT option, so they're pretty good at Assaulting what they want to. Infiltrate & Outflank is a free bonus for them too.

 

Different playstyles, but both very effective against their preferred targets.

[Ishagu]

I'm actually a big fan of the Terror squads in terms of rules... I see a lot of varied play with them, and good ways to position for early damage.

Night Lords don't have the most striking Legion rules but their units and Primarch are really great.

Just stick Curze in a big Night Raptor squad to create a Jump unit with Stealth, Shrouded and impressive cc on the charge.

[Terminus]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Volkite chargers are the most cost effective way to equip Terror Squads. A 10-man squad will kill 5 MEQs with them, followed up by another 6 from chainsword & bolt pistol attacks in Assault (you will now outnumber them). This increases with a failed Fear check, which you can boost to a -1 with Curze's passive ability, "Sire of the Night Lords" (you should always try to take him in Terror Assault). They're usually going to be Troops, with Drop Pods as a DT option, so they're pretty good at Assaulting what they want to. Infiltrate & Outflank is a free bonus for them too.

Those 5 guys that died were probably the ones in charge range.

[norngahl]

Yeah, but look at the price dimensions in terms of points.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I feel like we're going in circles.

 

One is a light infantry shredder, the other an elite killer with access to Rending weapons and Initiative 5. (Btw, Sanct, how do you get 4 Rends out of 12 wounds? 2d6 is oversimplified to 2 nr 6's. They don't rend on a 5+ unless I'm missing something?) Rending Weapons, and access to (cheap) Power Weapons.

 

They're cheap power weapons, but you've already stumped up half the cost, but the point remains; you get access to WS5/6 I5 Power Weapons and spears. Put them in a Pod of some sort, and have them Deep Strike out of Line of Sight of Interceptors. (no Flat Out sadly). What Terror Squads brings you are a squad of cheap light infantry shredder.

 

Terror Squads are GOOD. That's what we're saying. But at the same time, that the Palatines are good too.  Just a shame they can't get an Initiative 5 Counter Attack.

[Sanct]

Btw, Sanct, how do you get 4 Rends out of 12 wounds? 2d6 is oversimplified to 2 nr 6's. They don't rend on a 5+ unless I'm missing something?

24 hits. With rending, a 4-5 on the to wound roll will cause a regular to-be-saved wound and the rolls to wound of a 6 will automatically successfully to-be-saved-at-ap2 wound. 24/6 = 4. Bosh.

But at the same time, that the Palatines are good too. Just a shame they can't get an Initiative 5 Counter Attack.

Don't they have access to screamers?

Sanct, I assume you mean PASS Fear tests 83.33% of the time?

Eek! Cheers dude.

Yeah, but look at the price dimensions in terms of points.

But then only the terror squad can be a troops option a which they are so very nice.

Has anyone come up against a PoTL Red Butchers list? It has been spoken of here but I have never come up against one (or a phoenix list but then grumble grumble gripe)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Blegh, was sleepy. Worked out my Rends from numbers of wounds, rather than from number of hits. 

 

Forge Lord, Artificer Armour, Rad Nades = 95pts

Librarian, ML2, Telekinesis, Void Shield Harness = 135pts

Librarian, ML2, Telekinesis = 95pts

 

3x Graviton Cannon Rapiers = 225

 

9 Red Butchers, Twin Axes, 2 Powerfists+Chainfists, Devoured with Chainfist and Thunder Hammer = 505

9 Red Butchers, Twin Axes, 2 Powerfists+Chainfists, Devoured with Chainfist and Thunder Hammer = 505

9 Furious Charge Veterans, Heavy Flamer, Combi-flamer = 210

 

Dreadclaw Drop Pod = 100

 

Kharybdis = 260pts

Kharybdis = 260pts

Deredeo Dreadnought, Anvilus Pattern Autocannons, Twin-linked Heavy Flamer, Aiolos Missile Launcher = 210pts

 

Angron = 400pts

 

3000, on the nose. 2 Kharybdis come down with Drop Pod assault, each carrying a Red Butcher squad, one with Angron, the other with a Librarian and the Forge Lord; the Dreadclaw carrying the Veterans the following turn, with the Void Shield Librarian, which I can pop at any time after. These guys need to stay alive, so if possible stay around out of Line of Sight before hopping scoring late game. As to why veterans, because if I didn't take them, then free VP for the enemy because Red Butchers are not "Terminator Squads", and FW have yet to see fit to rectify that.

 

Telekinesis gives me the strike down power, which on a wounds (passes or save) forces difficult terrain, which is lovely for battlefield control, as do the Graviton Guns, which go for the painful threats like plasma/melta preds or Vindicators. As difficult terrain is forced on a full squad even if only one is affected, this is very good for slowing things down for a Cataphractii heavy list. 

 

It doesn't care about Spartans, because Angron and Red Butchers would probably do better toe to toe with any all comers list running Spartans and what's kept within. Telekinesis also gives me a chance of Levitate, Telekine Dome (because giving 5+ Invulnerables to Flyers like a Kharybdis, and Grav Cannons isn't pretty darn rough), while Psychic Maelstrom gives you Large S10 AP1 Blast, because who doesn't like them? Shockwaves pinning is actually quite useful too, while yet another chance of a haywire hit can help finish off annoying Iron Hand vehicles.

[Fangbanger]

Did you mean to post that there mate!?

 

Either way, you cannot add ic to your kharybdis as he has a capacity of 20, termiantors fill that by being bulky

[Sheesh Mode]

Yeah, but look at the price dimensions in terms of points.

Points are an inefficient measurement if the game's tactical nuance is ignored. 

[Caillum]

Those 5 guys that died were probably the ones in charge range.

Yeah, that's a possibility. If the charge distance is iffy, shoot with their bolt pistols, thereby causing a few less wounds. If the charge distance is low, play the odds and choom!

[Hesh Kadesh]

Did you mean to post that there mate!?

 

Either way, you cannot add ic to your kharybdis as he has a capacity of 20, termiantors fill that by being bulky

9 Terms + Angron = 20

9 Terms + 2nr Power Armour =20

[Fangbanger]

It read as 9 butchers, a devoured and Angron. My bad

 

Brutal list but one that will struggle with only 1 scoring unit at 3000 points.

[Marshal Loss]

EDIT: Wrong!

[Ishagu]

Red Butchers can't be scoring, can they?

[Caillum]

Isahgu's nailed it. Brilliant unit, but you only get half of the benefit from Pride of the Legion and all of the drawbacks. Think that's why there's a lot of Berserker Assault with Despoiler Tacticals.

 

5 man squad with power axes, thunder hammer & chainfist in a Dreadclaw is a great choice. Only uses a single Elite slot too. :)

[Marshal Loss]

Hmm, my bad. World Eater players in my area have been using them as scoring. Serves me right for not reading the rules more thoroughly on them

[Hesh Kadesh]

You deny 2 with the Red Butchers and claim the third with thee Vets with the Void Shield and Dreadclaw. But yeah, it is pretty rough going.

[WolfOfHorus]

Why are we talking about Elites?

 

I get that some Legion Specific units can be made troops. But other topics have covered that extensively.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Troop type tactica. Red Butchers are troops with Pride of the Legion.

 

What is the problem?

[GreyCrow]

Troop type tactica. Red Butchers are troops with Pride of the Legion.

 

What is the problem?

 

Interesting point ! I must've read the POTL too quickly and missed Legion specific Terminator Elite could be made as Troops :) Not scoring is indeed a big blow, but I guess if you want to bring a ton of them it might really be fun if you're playing for the kill :p

[Caillum]

Yeah, this is good discussing the units when they're available as Troops, rather than how they perform in the usual slots. Legion Tactica may cover this sometimes, but usually in a vacuum of their own legion.

 

Units that haven't got Implacable Advance gain the most out of becoming Troops:

- Phalanx Warders from "The Stone Gauntlet" (non-compulsory) or Rogal Dorn

- Templar Brethren from Sigismund

- Reavers from "The Black Reaving" or Maloghurst

- Pyroclasts from "The Covenant of Fire" (non-compulsory)

- Terror Squads from "Terror Assault"

- Ashen Circle from Zardu Layak's Warlord Trait

- Siege Tyrants from "Pride of the Legion"

- Heavy Support Squads from "The Reaping" (non-compulsory)

 

None of these were scoring initially, so they gain twice the benefit that Veterans, Legion Terminators or other Legion-specific units gain. It's rare to see an army with many Troop choices, unless they are one of the above choices.

[WolfOfHorus]

Palatine Blades are not a troop choice, and Butchers have been covered extensively in the other thread. I personally was wondering how people use the troop choices other than "2 tac squads in rhinos annd done".

[norngahl]

I guess if fury wouldn't require standing still, we might see a few more tacticals on the board rather than rhino grabbers.

 

When breachers could reroll their amorsave, they'd be a more interesting choice as well.

 

And if assault marines were deopped to 15 points a piece, you could consinder taking them as well.

 

Recon squads.. what for? Don't get it. Especially cause they are a support choice.

 

Either go Rhino grabbers or go veterans (and equivalents) and tool them for CC in a dreadclaw.

[Terminus]

Re-rolling all saves instead of just template/blast would be a nice boost. Instead, the reinforced armour is more of a drawback than a benefit since it slows you down so much. We can pretty much disregard this piece of equipment entirely unless we're talking Zone Mortalis where the void sealed actually does something.

 

As it is breachers aren't terrible, they are just very expensive. I think if they got melta-bombs as part of their standard kit, or at least at a discounted unit rate of 25 like many other units, they would be more appropriately priced. A squad with meltas and melta-bombs in a dreadclaw is 50 points more than a similarly equipped veteran squad. Veterans get 3 base attacks and tank hunter, Breachers score and have boarding shields. If they cost the same, it would be a fair choice between the two. At least in larger games the 50 points is not the end of the world, and there are more likely to be more big walkers/monsters where those bombs and shields can come into play.