Petitioner's City Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 One of the blurbs for future books mentions survivors ... Reveal hidden contents A shame about Daylight, Zarathustra, etc! But I guess Slaughter survives, since he only had 6 Urak Hai to kill? As for the length of the book, it's ok, and doesn't feel too light, more tight. As for the innovations with the Fists - why do people complain about changes to something which is 1500 years after one setting we know, and 8000 or thereabouts before the more common setting of 40K. That's the difference of pre-Islamic Middle East to the present Middle East or late Roman Ravenna to modern day Ravenna for the former - there is continuity, in architecture, ideas, etc, but also near-total difference in how people live and act and think and speak. Macrosystmes such as religion continue, but in totally different ways. The difference between M32 and M40 is even more dramatic - 7000-8000 years there is so little that is familiar from then to today! Really stop worrying about supposedly disruptive new ideas - even in this Gormenghast-esque world of decaying continuous heritage - and instead accept that in 9-10000 years of course things would change and evolve. 10000 years ago was the end of the Upper Paleolithic period! There is nothing wrong with new ideas, changes, micro-continuities, and difference - history is complex, varied and multicultural. It's more fallacious to suggest that from M31 there would be so little change, especially across a society which is thousands of times more complex than the real world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4240229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 On 12/1/2015 at 11:44 AM, Petitioner's City said: As for the innovations with the Fists - why do people complain about changes to something which is 1500 years after one setting we know, and 8000 or thereabouts before the more common setting of 40K. That's the difference of pre-Islamic Middle East to the present Middle East or late Roman Ravenna to modern day Ravenna for the former - there is continuity, in architecture, ideas, etc, but also near-total difference in how people live and act and think and speak. Macrosystmes such as religion continue, but in totally different ways. The difference between M32 and M40 is even more dramatic - 7000-8000 years there is so little that is familiar from then to today! Really stop worrying about supposedly disruptive new ideas - even in this Gormenghast-esque world of decaying continuous heritage - and instead accept that in 9-10000 years of course things would change and evolve. 10000 years ago was the end of the Upper Paleolithic period! There is nothing wrong with new ideas, changes, micro-continuities, and difference - history is complex, varied and multicultural. It's more fallacious to suggest that from M31 there would be so little change, especially across a society which is thousands of times more complex than the real world. Not sure I've seen anyone here complain about these but really, what are the changes from what we've seen? - The body of the Fists (possibly the battle companies?) are called the shield-corps - The individual companies have honourific names connected to walls; e.g. Daylight Wall is 2nd company - The marines themselves have personal names and names used by their brothers; e.g. Slaughter, Killshot - They have a particular veteran cadre/honour guard who are forbidden to leave Terra (until now) - They still have Stormbirds, breacher-type troops and/or sometimes fight with sword and combat shield They are not major differences but I agree, they are well within the bounds of changes and micro-continuities. The wall-references for both companies and brothers really speaks to a force that has mostly been guarding Terra for two thousand years rather than out crusading. Not surprising that it's a feature that appeared post-heresy but hasn't lasted until the 41st millennium. Would love to see more of that type of thing, it's exactly the sort of complexity you mention that is so interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4240244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I don't take umbrage when space marines use more than their codex entry weapons. A modern rifle squads has plenty of variation so there no reason to think that space marines would be supplied with a uniform set of weapons for every squad. Just because it doesn't say something in a codex entry, and it doesnt have rules on the table top doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The skitarii in Cybernetica carried plasma fusils, the Justaerin in Vengeful Spirit carried boarding shields, and the captain from Space Marine had a grenade launcher (something I might one day attempt to add to a tactical squad with my planned bolster SAW variant). However, it wasn't really clear if the Fists followed the Codex at all. That would be a full 180 degree turn from 'being second to the Ultramarines in Codex adherence'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4240270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Antipodes Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Far from complaining about the greater characterisation given to the Fists of M32 I applaud it and will be sorry when it is lost in the post Beast rebuild of the Chapter (however they go about it). IMHO it is the first real attempt to give them an internal culture that was more than yellow painted UM. Slaughter for new Chapter Master? Wouldn't surprise me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4240398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandlemad Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 On 12/1/2015 at 12:51 PM, Marshal Rohr said: However, it wasn't really clear if the Fists followed the Codex at all. That would be a full 180 degree turn from 'being second to the Ultramarines in Codex adherence'. There was a reference to the chapter being a thousand strong (I think when the second wave was arriving from Terra?) but yeah, most of the other aspects of following the codex seem to have gone unmentioned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4240516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Imperial Fists naming themselves "Slaughter" and "Killshot"? Oy vey. There are actual Chaos Marines pointing at them and laughing for having silly, trying to hard names, and that's the faction where "Hatelord Soulstabber Snarlyface" is a perfectly acceptable thing to call yourself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4240544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 On 12/1/2015 at 5:17 PM, Wade Garrett said: Imperial Fists naming themselves "Slaughter" and "Killshot"? Oy vey. There are actual Chaos Marines pointing at them and laughing for having silly, trying to hard names, and that's the faction where "Hatelord Soulstabber Snarlyface" is a perfectly acceptable thing to call yourself. This. I like the idea of those Fists guarding the Palace giving up their names and taken the moniker of their duty posts in the palace. But as I said elsewhere, while I quite like the book so far, these other monikers make me feel I am reading the server chat on Call of Duty M32: Dorn of War... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4240751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
augustmanifesto Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 Welp. Dan Abnett really must it in for Imperial Fists. First, he kills 5th Company in Space Marine, and now this. Guy must be an Iron Warriors player or something, idk.But... Reveal hidden contents Regarding the reconstitution of the Imperial Fists, four hypotheses come to mind - some already discussed -- and attendant reasoning surrounding the plausibility of each:1. Enough astartes survived to constitute a combat-effective force of some kind, and rebuild from there. This would take some fancy footwork by future authors. The reader is led to believe all Imperial Fists are killed on the planet and that the Imperial fleet above is entirely destroyed and unable to reach warp translation even if some astartes somehow were rescued. How could a significant number survive? This would really strain suspension of disbelief, as far as science fiction in the 32nd millennium featuring super humans, psychic power, and daemons go, which, you know...2. The Chapter is reconstituted from scratch (or almost scratch). It's mentioned elsewhere the Imperial Fists have a unique ability to reconstitute themselves and have done so multiple times in the past when having been all but decimated. I believe the phrase was something like 'as long as a sole battle brother survives aboard the Phalanx, the Chapter can survive' -- although our characters in I Am Slaughter were genuinely concerned about the extinction of the Chapter, so perhaps they didn't get the memo here or this rapid reconstitution capability did not yet exist.Here, it's tempting to think somehow Slaughter survives. That would make some narrative sense given he was passed the teleport beacon by his dying battle-brother. Additionally, the Inquisition seemed to be aware that the threat was more than what it seemed, so perhaps they had a role in rescuing a handful of survivors? If not the Inquisition, it would be consistent with the shadowy political theme that some agency within the Imperium was clandestinely monitoring events and decided to intervene.3. Successor Chapter impersonates the Imperial Fists. It is stated that he High Lords intend to cover up the apparent extinction of the Imperial Fists. The most convincing way to do that would be make the supposed Imperial Fists survivors appear more or less immediately, or else people in the Imperial bureaucracy would start to ask rather obvious questions more or less immediately. This could be done with a single Chapter (the Black Templar are purported to have many thousand warriors, for example) or with contributions from multiple successor Chapters). The Imperial Fists will be expected to participate in the defense of the Terran Core, after all.According to Lexicanum, the Imperial Fists storm the Assassinorum Temple to kill Draken along with the Halo Brethren and Sable Swords -- the founding chapter of the latter two isn't given. Perhaps they are Imperial Fists successors and in on reconstitution the Chapter along the lines of hypothesis 3? Who knows! Another factor that could support hypothesis three is if the Imperial Fists scouts were also destroyed, without which 1-2 would seem to militate against any recovery at all, much less one rapid enough for the timeline of the story in which we know the Imperial Fists will again play a role (see below).This possibility would have the biggest "wow" factor, and perhaps be in line with the theme of secrets-inside-secrets that the novel is developing to introduce the Imperium of M39 we have known for years.4. The Imperial Fists Scouts are alive and trained by another Chapter. If the Imperial Fists scouts survive, then related to hypotheses three could be they are hurried through final training, augmentation, etc., and trained or assisted by another Chapter to quickly achieve operational capability.----Regardless, any of the above (or some combination) would seem to be consistent with: (a) the apparent cultural changes in the Imperial Fists between M32 and M42 that have already been noted; and ( b )that according to cannon that the Imperial Fists are involved in the execution of Drakan Vangorich during the period covered by the novel series, i.e., that under current fluff the Imperial Fists have a combat-capable force by the conclusion of the events covered in the novel series. Other run that, it was a good read. The political angle was cool. But Abnett has a habit of being heavy handed with thematic appeals to space marine chapter/legion character (remember that Wolfy wolf wolf wolf-tastic trope in the wolf book?) The wall-references were a bit much, though the wall-names is less lame if the given names are taken to be low gothic and one imagines there are high gothic equivalents. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4240859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Antipodes Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Although it might seem like a hard sell Option 1 would not be that hard to do i reckon. At the end we only really saw a small section of the blisternest, where Slaughter and his group were holed up. When it was first attacked it was on all fronts and on several levels. Who is to say that there are not many other small to medium sized groups of IF survivors in other sections? Having said that, my money is on Slaughter surviving those six Orks and being the one to rebuild the Chapter, either with some scouts left lying about somewhere or volunteers from other sons of Dorn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4241262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 On 12/1/2015 at 10:50 PM, augustmanifesto said: Other run that, it was a good read. The political angle was cool. But Abnett has a habit of being heavy handed with thematic appeals to space marine chapter/legion character (remember that Wolfy wolf wolf wolf-tastic trope in the wolf book?) The wall-references were a bit much, though the wall-names is less lame if the given names are taken to be low gothic and one imagines there are high gothic equivalents. Yah! 'Slaughter' in Latin could be Caedes, Occionis, Internicio, Cruor and several other fancy words, in Old English Fiell, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4241267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petitioner's City Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Also I loved how the Officio Assassinorum was about more than just the Temples! That it has seemingly 'normal', non-Temple associated members. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4241272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
augustmanifesto Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 On 12/2/2015 at 11:45 AM, Brother Antipodes said: Although it might seem like a hard sell Option 1 would not be that hard to do i reckon. At the end we only really saw a small section of the blisternest, where Slaughter and his group were holed up. When it was first attacked it was on all fronts and on several levels. Who is to say that there are not many other small to medium sized groups of IF survivors in other sections? Having said that, my money is on Slaughter surviving those six Orks and being the one to rebuild the Chapter, either with some scouts left lying about somewhere or volunteers from other sons of Dorn. Yeah. Would be very loken-esque. And if slaughter were the imperial fist who killed draken, well, then, that would just make sense :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4241286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost_angel Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Augustmanifesto - not started my copy yet buuuut there do seem to be some tantalizing hints in the blurbs for the forthcoming books in the series over on BLs page. Something about 'the last survivors of ardamantua make their plans for the future' and 'the sons of Dorn assemble to fulfil their legacy' or somesuch so make of that what you will. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4241755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
augustmanifesto Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 On 12/2/2015 at 9:50 PM, lost_angel said: Augustmanifesto - not started my copy yet buuuut there do seem to be some tantalizing hints in the blurbs for the forthcoming books in the series over on BLs page. Something about 'the last survivors of ardamantua make their plans for the future' and 'the sons of Dorn assemble to fulfil their legacy' or somesuch so make of that what you will. excellent call. I missed that. One makes reference to the Phall System. interesting! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4241776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I'd imagine it'd be something similar to what happened to the BA, except on a larger scale. Tithes from successors, maintain the Chapter's name, etc etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4241884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 The new IF will be ultramarines. That would explain their strict codex adherence. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4242046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 On 12/1/2015 at 5:17 PM, Wade Garrett said: Imperial Fists naming themselves "Slaughter" and "Killshot"? Oy vey. Somehow I have difficulty taking them serious... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4242168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
augustmanifesto Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 On 12/3/2015 at 7:14 AM, Sete said: The new IF will be ultramarines. That would explain their strict codex adherence. FWIW strict adherence to the Codex was affected by Rogal Dorn under current cannon. Not sure if we're looking at the process of that being retconned, which could be, given that Slaughter's rank was second-captain, which I don't think was a Codex-sanctioned position. But I could get down with the retcon that codex-adherence came out of this rebuilding (so long as no Ultramarines are not involved...) as part of developing the character of the entire Chapter. Similarly, I wonder if Abnett is foreshadowing the Imperial Fists geneseed decay in the discussion in the text about how Space Marines would eventually die off (as in all them) as the integrity of their genesedes degrades and if we might witness that in this series (i.e., the Betcher's Gland and/or the Sus-an Membrane functions going away, as is the case with M42 Imperial Fists). Anywho, enough idle speculation by me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4242340 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yeah, maybe, but it's clear that something significant happened by way of keeping the geneseed and implants relatively intact, as it's stated that the SM will probably be unfeasible to create in like 500 more years after the novel ends. Obviously there are more SM being created, and hell there are even full foundings after M32 so it'll be interesting to dive into how that occurs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4242536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 There is a veritable explosion of Foundings in the M34/35 region, both millennia holding more Foundings than the other 8 thousand years together. Perhaps the reason why is that whatever issue is being hinted at was overcome and the Adeptus Astartes was in dire need of new Chapters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4242540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 On 11/28/2015 at 11:51 PM, TDF said: Reveal hidden contents People with strong feelings about the VI Legion executioner thing are going to be very pleased/displeased with one of the lines in the novel, although it could just be passed off as popular myth 1500 years after the fact. I did a double-take when Lord Guilliman showed up. OK, these 2 points really need extrapolation. If you're going to spoil, fully spoil dammit! None of this cryptic stuff . As to the story in general. Can't say anything I've read here has made me more enthused towards this event. It just feels like the same old steps, but with a different coating. 'Bad thing happens to the Imperium, Massive Imperial Casualties, Pyrrhic Victory at best for the humans'. Sorry to say, but I'm just sick of it. Codex fluff, IA books, the mess that was Warzone: Damocles, HH series and now this. I'm fed up with the faction I prefer never seeming to get a break. I honestly wonder how the Imperium's meant to have endured for 10,000 years while seeming to never conclusively win a war (unless it's a civil war). I miss the days where was still some hope mixed in with the Grimdark, rather than 'all Grimdark, all the time', which just leaves me increasingly apathetic. Edit: That went a lot more tangential than I planned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4242658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 What TDF is referring to is Reveal hidden contents The Emperor had understood this, which was why He had instigated the office and allowed it to function during His lifetime. He had understood the necessity for ultimate sanction. He had, after all, permitted the VI Legion of the Adeptus Astartes to exist simply to function in that role as it applied to primarchs and other Legions. which is something that we've already known to be true to a degree, as Malcador had sent VI legion Marines to various primarchs/legions. Other than that it's just looking back on some of their actions with some embellishment. And the whole Lord Guilliman thing shouldn't be a spoiler per se; by now Guilliman is dead but the office of the Lord Commander of the Imperium is referred to as 'Lord Guilliman' at this time in history. It's really more of an interesting honorific than any important plot detail at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4242699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamsterExAstris Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 On 12/3/2015 at 8:51 PM, Leif Bearclaw said: As to the story in general. Can't say anything I've read here has made me more enthused towards this event. It just feels like the same old steps, but with a different coating. 'Bad thing happens to the Imperium, Massive Imperial Casualties, Pyrrhic Victory at best for the humans'. This was book 1 of 12. They have a long way to go before I think we can write it off as "a Pyrrhic victory at best". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4242870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDF Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 On 12/3/2015 at 9:41 PM, Apothecary Vaddon said: What TDF is referring to is Reveal hidden contents The Emperor had understood this, which was why He had instigated the office and allowed it to function during His lifetime. He had understood the necessity for ultimate sanction. He had, after all, permitted the VI Legion of the Adeptus Astartes to exist simply to function in that role as it applied to primarchs and other Legions. which is something that we've already known to be true to a degree, as Malcador had sent VI legion Marines to various primarchs/legions. Other than that it's just looking back on some of their actions with some embellishment. And the whole Lord Guilliman thing shouldn't be a spoiler per se; by now Guilliman is dead but the office of the Lord Commander of the Imperium is referred to as 'Lord Guilliman' at this time in history. It's really more of an interesting honorific than any important plot detail at all. I spoilered Lord Guilliman because I didn't want to ruin the shock of reading that name in the narrative and thinking there was a retcon for ten seconds before you read the next paragraph. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4243744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 yeah fair enough, hell for a second I was like WUUUUUUUUUUUUT and then the next sentence came and I was like even more WUUUUUUUUT then I reread the whole thing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314634-the-beast-arises/page/5/#findComment-4243819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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