Prot Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 Like many of you I've read most of the HH Series, but I keep waiting for something to happen.... When does the Imperium commit to a serious counter blow? I realize the story is somewhat static, and unchangeable in outcome but this is very strange to me right now. I've read book after book of sabatoge, subterfuge, and all out wars against the Imperium at every turn. I understand the Imperium is on the defensive, but aside from sitting on terra 'building walls', it appears to be just... waiting - waiting for the inevitable attack on Terra. I really don't understand why there isn't a cool story arch right now with an awesome counter punch being thrown into the Heresy actions. As mentioned I know it can't be a killing blow, we know what happens next... it can't stop the actions of the Heresy. The only sort of action I can see of this nature unfolding started in Vengeful Spirit where we have a high end specialist space marine team preparing for Leman Russ' assault on Horus. To me this seems like a missed opportunity. For all intents and purposes the series is being milked hard, and we could probably trim some novels/novellas right out of the mix and not suffer much for lack of understanding the storyline. I think there is room for a hard counter punch now that a lot of the lines have been drawn in the sand, and not just Astartes, but factions of Mechanicum, and once loyal planets/systems have joined the Heresy. There are now significant resources lost from the Imperium that are very targetable. This could be portrayed in so many ways I honestly think it could be a VERY cool story to tell: - It could be a suicide mission of a medium sized strike force to devastate a Heretic Legion whose actions are well known. - A lead up to the above plot could be a short novel/ebook/whatever involving a better Assassinorum novel. (Joe Parinno could would work for me here!) - A massive force, guided by whatever means necessary (Malcador could be powerful enough?) completely obliterates a huge Forgeworld planet that was once Loyal. Would it not be great to see what happens to a society that has perhaps turned its back on the Imperium for the first time in this series? How has this not happened yet? - I understand Chaos 'owns' the Warp... or so we are being told, but wouldn't it be cool to read about a completely unforeseen counter attack committed by the Imperium through the warp, circumventing the giant Warp Storm that has lulled the Heresy forces into a false sense of security? I could go on with my own dribble, but there has to be 10 or more solid ideas out there that could have the Emperor's forces counter punching. But so far nearly nothing of value has happened here. We've gone through several phases and I think this is something that's really missing, and as a result the Black Library is missing an opportunity here to create new heroes, new villains and add a twist to the story. What do you guys think? Am I missing something? Did I miss a story arch in the books where this happened already? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half Goat Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I think the point is that the Imperium is so fragmented, not to mention wrapped up in chasing shadows and trying to gather information, that it doesn't know where to strike. That's the cornerstone of Horus' campaign.However, I'd love to see Dorn re-take Mars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4192811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 The traitors have the initiative. The loyalists can't do anything but strike at targets of opportunity. Its not an unfair situation, its just the nature of the game. Edit: Also, the next FW book is called Retaliation, so if I were a betting man, we are about to see some loyalist counter punches. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4192856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 I'd like to see something more like that too, though I can also see why it hasn't happened as yet. Isstvan V was -supposed- to be their big strike back, and it hurt the loyalists badly. The Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Salamanders aren't really in any shape to mount a serious counter-offensive, while the Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Space Wolves have all been separated and hurt in their own conflicts (Signus, Calth/Shadow Crusade, Thramas Crusade and Prospero/Alaxxes, respectively). The Fists are stuck defending Terra (having also lost a significant portion of their strength at Phall), and the Scars were out of it at first on Chondax. There is some potential now though, and I hope they move on it. As mentioned, the Fists making a concerted effort to re-take Mars could be good, and hopefully Scars 2 will see the White Scars getting up to something before they head for Terra. There's the plot thread of Russ making a strike for Horus, which I would love to see especially with the Dark Angels force he discovered in Wolf King , and presumably at some point the Blood Angels will need to leave Imperium Secundus. Essentially, the Imperium suffered a whole series of major blows and ambush strikes, and it's understandably taking a while to recover from that (if at all). But they do still have some significant forces, who I feel are now ripe to making some kind of counter-attack. So let's see it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4192966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 plain and simple...if the Imperial war machine was able to launch a unified counter blow at the Traitors then Horus would have never reached Terra. SO instead we have the idiocy of the Loyalists and the cunning betrayals from the Traitors. I want the Scouring. When the Imperium gets its act together and opens the freighter worth of Whoop-Ass on the traitors. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4192970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 9, 2015 Share Posted October 9, 2015 WLK is spot on. The Traitors dominate during the Age of Darkness and the loyalist strike back during the Scouring. We will see the loyalists winning battle (a la Conquest), but it won't be a huge counter-thrust. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 What is Retaliation about? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 IIRC the shattered legions come after the Iron Warriors garrisons the war master has set up to deny the loyalists routes into territories conquered by the Dark Compliance. The inclusion of the WS, DA, and BA makes me think we will see references to those legion forces that had not joined their Primarchs at Thramas, Signus, and Chondax. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 plain and simple...if the Imperial war machine was able to launch a unified counter blow at the Traitors then Horus would have never reached Terra. SO instead we have the idiocy of the Loyalists and the cunning betrayals from the Traitors. I want the Scouring. When the Imperium gets its act together and opens the freighter worth of Whoop-Ass on the traitors. WLK I want to see the Scouring....for the opposite reason. :p That being, to see the duel between Roboute and Fulgrim, and why it even happened to begin with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 plain and simple...if the Imperial war machine was able to launch a unified counter blow at the Traitors then Horus would have never reached Terra. SO instead we have the idiocy of the Loyalists and the cunning betrayals from the Traitors. I want the Scouring. When the Imperium gets its act together and opens the freighter worth of Whoop-Ass on the traitors. WLK I want to see the Scouring....for the opposite reason. That being, to see the duel between Roboute and Fulgrim, and why it even happened to begin with. The opposite reason? WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 The opposite reason? WLK I want to see the traitors fighting retreat from Terra in essence, not just Fulgrim though i'm looking forward to that the most. I want to see the trail of depopulated worlds and devastation on the way to the Eye of Terror. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 The "counter punch" was Isstvan V. And now, there's nothing the Imperium could do on a significant scale until the Warmaster overcommits at Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 10, 2015 Share Posted October 10, 2015 The "counter punch" was Isstvan V. And now, there's nothing the Imperium could do on a significant scale until the Warmaster overcommits at Terra. Significant scale means strategically on a galaxy wide basis. There are still going to be battles of massive scope. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabadin Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 Basically at this point,without any retcons, the next big Imperial counter we can expect is the big E boarding the Vengeful Spirit. And at this rate, that's going to be a while. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 I remember in 2013 I couldn't wait for the next Hh release for bl. Now....i honestly could care less, as much as it pains me to say it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 I remember in 2013 I couldn't wait for the next Hh release for bl. Now....i honestly could care less, as much as it pains me to say it Agreed.I'd drive 45 minutes to the nearest bookstore on release days to get them faster. I would even bribe my brother or a friend to drive so I could begin reading on the drive home. now I just order them off of Amazon and put them in my pile to read. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 From the novellas and short stories in seems like the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders are doing nothing BUT make massive counter strikes that obliterate hundreds if not thousands of Traitors in every action. The Ultras, Wolves, and both kinds of Angels just need to step up their game to match the Shattered Supreme Legions and the Heresy could end in a solid an Imperial victory in two more books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4193987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 The problem is that the original Heresy was very simple. Horus proclaims his rebellion by destroying Istvaan III. After months of hesitating, the Emperor sends seven Legions against Horus. Four of those turn against their allies on Istvaan V. Now controlling a total of nine Legions, Horus immediately moves against Terra. Horus is defeated, but the Emperor is grievously wounded as well. For seven more years the traitors and the loyalists duke it out all across the Imperium, until eventually order is restored. The initial actions, what is now called the "Horus Heresy", took place over a relatively condensed period. Horus Rebells. Sevel Legions are sent against him. Four turn, three are destroyed. Now Horus moves against Terra. Other sources pointed out that some other Legions like the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels were currently active elsewhere, and immediately rushed to defend Terra once they had learned about the events. But this has all been changed in the "Horus Heresy" novel series. The initial rebellion has been stretched over a longer period. An entirely new narrative has been invented. Original events are changed and tried to fit into this new narrative. The Ultramarines are now being attacked at the outset of a seveal year long campaign, not when Terra is being besieged. So now they are supposedly doing nothing/something for the remainder of the campaign. The Dark Angels get an entirely new campaign of their own, instead of immediately racing to Terra besides the Space Wolves. Not everyting allways checks out in this new narrative. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4194020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 IIRC the shattered legions come after the Iron Warriors garrisons the war master has set up to deny the loyalists routes into territories conquered by the Dark Compliance. The inclusion of the WS, DA, and BA makes me think we will see references to those legion forces that had not joined their Primarchs at Thramas, Signus, and Chondax. Cool...it seems that at least some pro-Horus WS have been sent to reinforce the Shattered Legions. Those with Henricos and those at Imperium Secundus for example. Hopefully, some DA and BA have joined the party as well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4194041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I concur with Legatus. Even with the old narrative there was plenty of stories to tell. I always thought that when Horus made the pact with Chaos he owned the warp and it was he who held back the help from the scattered Legions. With the Galaxy the size it is I always imagined him going on a mad dash towards Terra. But alas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4194608 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 The problem is that the original Heresy was very simple. Horus proclaims his rebellion by destroying Istvaan III. After months of hesitating, the Emperor sends seven Legions against Horus. Four of those turn against their allies on Istvaan V. Now controlling a total of nine Legions, Horus immediately moves against Terra. Horus is defeated, but the Emperor is grievously wounded as well. For seven more years the traitors and the loyalists duke it out all across the Imperium, until eventually order is restored. The initial actions, what is now called the "Horus Heresy", took place over a relatively condensed period. Horus Rebells. Sevel Legions are sent against him. Four turn, three are destroyed. Now Horus moves against Terra. Other sources pointed out that some other Legions like the Ultramarines and the Dark Angels were currently active elsewhere, and immediately rushed to defend Terra once they had learned about the events. But this has all been changed in the "Horus Heresy" novel series. The initial rebellion has been stretched over a longer period. An entirely new narrative has been invented. Original events are changed and tried to fit into this new narrative. The Ultramarines are now being attacked at the outset of a seveal year long campaign, not when Terra is being besieged. So now they are supposedly doing nothing/something for the remainder of the campaign. The Dark Angels get an entirely new campaign of their own, instead of immediately racing to Terra besides the Space Wolves. Not everyting allways checks out in this new narrative. The Dark Angels and the Thramas Campaign is over 10 years old by this point, and notthing to do with the novel series creating it. That's not to say I agree or disagree with your general point, which is succinct and well-made, but that example isn't quite accurate. Some of my interest has waned with the way the war is developing, but I can't expect to love everything 100% of the time, so I tend not to worry overmuch or focus on those parts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4194659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 'I remember in 2013 I couldn't wait for the next Hh release for bl.' - same here brother, same here. And tis such a shame. Only A D-B on forums always helps us out not to forget it, lol Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4194733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Was Thramas mentioned in the Collected Visions book? Though in that book Horus sets course for terra immediately after Istvaan V. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4194741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 'I remember in 2013 I couldn't wait for the next Hh release for bl.' - same here brother, same here. And tis such a shame. Only A D-B on forums always helps us out not to forget it, lol :D adb and abnett are the only heresy authors that are an automatic buy for me Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4194900 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I'm waiting for the breaking of the Death Guard, I hope it gets handled well. Other than that, anything by AD-B. I have this sinking feeling that the siege of Terra (or at least its key point, if it gets split into several books), will be written by a certain influential writer I don't care for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/314697-a-part-of-the-hh-series-i-keep-waiting-for/#findComment-4195001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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