Void Knight Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 First time starting a topic, so bare with me if I didn't properly format this theory. The Blood Angels have been wiped out to a very small number throughout their history. In 811.M37 the Blood Angels suffer heavy losses at the hands of Abaddon's 7th Black Crusade, losing both geneseed and precious power armor to the forces of chaos In 996.M40 the Blood Angels are left with only 50 marines after assaulting the genestealer infested space hulk Sin of Damnation (important to note that on the Lexicanum, the next notable campaign the Blood Angels take part in is in 187.M41, meaning they raised at least 1,950 marines over the course of less than 200 years) In the Blood Angels novels, the Blood Angels are severely depleted following the "Arkio Insurrection" and Fabius's invasion of Baal At the end of the Blood Angels novels, Dante asks the successor chapters to donate recruits to help refill the Blood Angels ranks. Considering the fact that a Blood Angels aspirant has to stay within a casket for a full year as their bodies adjust to the injection of Sanguinius's blood, it would be to the benefit of the Blood Angels if they could rebuild with new recruits that have already gone through the process. In addition to the recruits, the Blood Angels would also receive power armor, weapons, and other technology that takes a long time to create from their successor chapters. So I put forward the theory that despite the massive losses that the Blood Angels receive throughout their history (and that's not mentioning those lost to the Black Rage), they are able to quickly rebuild because of the donations of recruits and supplies they can gather from their successor chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I think it's a fair assumption. In Shield of Baal Dante calls to the successors and many answer the call, even the Flesh Tearer. I'm sure many would be honoured to be called up to be a member of thier parent chapter to live on the legacy. High Lords may have something to say about it, but then again it's hardly the legion building Azrael has going on with our greener angelic friends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 In 996.M40 the Blood Angels are left with only 50 marines after assaulting the genestealer infested space hulk Sin of Damnation (important to note that on the Lexicanum, the next notable campaign the Blood Angels take part in is in 187.M41, meaning they raised at least 1,950 marines over the course of less than 200 years) Why do you say over 1,950? Also, they don't have to have a full chapter to do a notable campaign. One to two companies is enough. in the Blood Angels novels, the Blood Angels are severely depleted following the "Arkio Insurrection" and Fabius's invasion of Baal Those books didn't happen. There are so many glaring issues (such as a Master Apothecary despite the fact that those don't exist for Blood Angels). Not only that, but they are never mentioned in the Codex (and something as major as that would be mentioned). It's carp, don't put stake on that. At the end of the Blood Angels novels, Dante asks the successor chapters to donate recruits to help refill the Blood Angels ranks. Considering the fact that a Blood Angels aspirant has to stay within a casket for a full year as their bodies adjust to the injection of Sanguinius's blood, it would be to the benefit of the Blood Angels if they could rebuild with new recruits that have already gone through the process. In addition to the recruits, the Blood Angels would also receive power armor, weapons, and other technology that takes a long time to create from their successor chapters. So I put forward the theory that despite the massive losses that the Blood Angels receive throughout their history (and that's not mentioning those lost to the Black Rage), they are able to quickly rebuild because of the donations of recruits and supplies they can gather from their successor chapters. Nope. Dante never asked that, they never called that meeting (it's not in the codex, and the only meeting they called in the 'dex was "The 'nids are coming. Come to Baal and help us!" Honestly, just forget the Blood Angel novels. Focus on the source material when it comes to Blood Angels. That would be Space Hulk and the Codex (and anything FW puts out). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 We know they did that, it's in Red Fury. And we know they don't make a habit of it because, when they do it in Red Fury, it's considered a shocking and unprecedented request by the other Chapter Masters. Where's the conspiracy theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 We know they did that, it's in Red Fury. And we know they don't make a habit of it because, when they do it in Red Fury, it's considered a shocking and unprecedented request by the other Chapter Masters. Where's the conspiracy theory? Yeah, in the same book where the Blood Angels have apothecaries, where they are so stupid as to allow super mutants strong enough to destroy dreadnoughts into their fortress? Where the "Chief Apothecary" (that wasn't Corbulo) was stupid enough to disregard Dante's order? Didn't happen. Also, even if we did pretend it did happen, even if they took all the recruits they could from the various chapters (recruits are still rare), they would not have enough men within the decade this book takes place and the Shield of Baal. Also, the Sanguinary Priests drink from the Red Grail. If they drink from the Red Grail, wouldn't the blood already be gone by the time Fabius took the "last sample of Sanguinius' Blood in the Galaxy"? Considering the fact that all of the Priests carry their blood in their veins (it's part of the process, after all), that's also bull snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Have you not seen the limited head sculpts for all BA models in the GW range? Apparently the BA's are actually cloning their replacements from scratch...they all look the same... Just joking, sometimes stuff gets too serious. I'm just wondering where in the 40K Universe, Sanguinary Priests get those squirt bottles of red bull and monster...one of course, gives you wings and a red thirst...the other, apparently, is responsible for the black rage and higher initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Antodeniel Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I , Frater Antodeniel, declare that many major gap remains uncleared in the Blood Angels fluff, while not simply misleading. Furthermore, i think that some part of the Blood Angels fluff could be change to explain many things....follow me into my Exsanguinators successor fluff...^^ => How can the Blood Angels and theirs successors be able to recover kickly from great looses ? ===> "Charnel Guard" FW response ===> Part of the chapter "sleep" in sarcophages...so the Blood Angels may be twice their real size in number... => Also, another piece ===> The "war of broken wings" GW response ===> The "Angels Sanguine" Awake THREE HUNDRED death company brothers from their "sleeping"....a century worth of their fallen brothers....how many death company brother a chapter can have after 2-3-4...etc century.....just imagine a thousand death company brothers unleash upon any foes.... Two Official Bones to "mash" about. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Yeah, in the same book where the Blood Angels have apothecaries, where they are so stupid as to allow super mutants strong enough to destroy dreadnoughts into their fortress? Where the "Chief Apothecary" (that wasn't Corbulo) was stupid enough to disregard Dante's order? Mate, if you want to have a tantrum about which books count as canon, can I suggest you do it elsewhere? Maybe you could get a blog or something, because the answer is always going to be "all of them". You don't like them, we get it, you're not really being productive here. The Blood Angels do have Apothecaries. Always have done. Sanguinary Priest is a title, not a different thing, just like calling a Veteran a Sword Brother. Sticking to the codex here, first and latest: http://cdn.lightbringers-space-marines.net/wip/aodapothecary.jpghttp://cdn.lightbringers-space-marines.net/wip/apothecary-corbulo-sanguinary-priest.jpg the Blood Angels Sanguinary Priesthood (the Blood Angels Apothecaries) The term "Chief Apothecary" is never used in Red Fury and Corbulo is explicitly cited as the "highest": The Apothecary’s robes were a splash of stark contrast, the spotless white lined with trim of red. The highest of the Chapter’s sanguinary priests, Corbulo presented a grim and lined aspect beneath a shock of straw-coloured hair. Caecus, and his title of Apothecae Majoris, is just a veteran Apothecary. Not only that, but they are never mentioned in the Codex (and something as major as that would be mentioned). So your contention would be that in 10,000 years, the Blood Angels have only fought approximately a dozen notable campaigns? No. The timelines aren't remotely comprehensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Except it's when it takes place. The timeline gets more clustered the closer it gets to 999. the codex says only two blood Angels have overcome the black rage (the books has more than that), the codex and index astartes says the blood Angels do not have apothecaries, instead they have Sanguinarh Priests. Again, something so major as to them losing so many people that they would need to ask all of their successors to have neophytes transferred to them would be mentioned (like the other disasters) yet has never once been mentioned outside of the book. Something so major as a Sanguinius look alike would have been mentioned. And again, in the small amount of space between the novel and the book would mean that they wouldn't have enough men to fit with what the codex has stated. Also, the book said that the last precious remains of Sanguinius' blood was stolen from the red Grail. However, Sanguinary priests drink from the red Grail, so how would Sanguinius' real blood have been there in the first place? Not to mention that the codex hasn't said that the Red Grail is empty. and if all books are canon, then Belarius was the first chapter master alongside Raldoran. P.s. It's not a tantrum, it's me saying it shouldn't be used as evidence for what Blood Angels do. If it is, then it is evidence that the blood Angels are nothing but weak pansies who can't cope with the losses that chapters like the Flesh Tearers and other Blood Angel successors deal with. That cry to weaker chapters (in terms of manpower) for help, that are so easily gullible that it's a miracle they didnt join chaos in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Knight Posted October 12, 2015 Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 In 996.M40 the Blood Angels are left with only 50 marines after assaulting the genestealer infested space hulk Sin of Damnation (important to note that on the Lexicanum, the next notable campaign the Blood Angels take part in is in 187.M41, meaning they raised at least 1,950 marines over the course of less than 200 years) Why do you say over 1,950? Also, they don't have to have a full chapter to do a notable campaign. One to two companies is enough. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I meant to say 950 marines as that would be Codex defined chapter strength. Those books didn't happen. There are so many glaring issues (such as a Master Apothecary despite the fact that those don't exist for Blood Angels). Not only that, but they are never mentioned in the Codex (and something as major as that would be mentioned). It's carp, don't put stake on that. As for the books, I added them as a potential source to argue my theory. While I agree that the glaring issues you mention are significant enough to discredit them as a source, but due the nature of historical revisionism in the WH40K universe, technically everything and I mean everything can be considered canon. From Ian Watson's Space Marine to C.S. Goto's works can be considered canon despite its flaws or inaccuracies. Just because source isn;t from a codex or rulebook doesn't invalidate it. By taking the Blood Angels series into account, it means that a writer from the Black Library put forth the idea that the Blood Angels can, in times of need, draw recruits from their successor chapters to reinforce their ranks. To me it makes sense since the canon implies that there is a sense of brotherhood and camaraderie between the Blood Angels and their successors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Mike Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I haven't read all the novels you cited in your theory, but while it SEEMS like the Blood Angels have been taken down to less than half chapter strength in their history, but a pattern I've noticed is that the authors oft use words and phrasing that IMPLY great losses were suffered one time or another, but don't cite specific numbers. So while half a company of lost Blood Angels is a grievous loss, it isn't the end of the chapter and those actual numbers are around what actual BA casualties were in the campaigns and battles you mentioned. For instance, a good example of my above observation would be in the novella "Mephiston, Lord of Death". In there, it is hinted that the 4th company suffers great losses to their enemies throughout the whole book (yes, enemies; can't spoil anything now can I :P). But at the end of the book, it is mentioned in concrete numbers that around 50 casualties are reported by Captain Castigon. So if you can go back to your sources and quote lines that include specific numbers, then your theory would have more credibility. But until then, I'm taking it with the idea of authors using grandiose language to exaggerate the loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Well the Blood Angels have been shown to have been down to only 50 men at one point of time. It specifically stated it in the Space Hulk rule booklet that explained the fluff. So at one point of time, thag was confirmed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Mike Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Well the Blood Angels have been shown to have been down to only 50 men at one point of time. It specifically stated it in the Space Hulk rule booklet that explained the fluff. So at one point of time, thag was confirmed. Was that the First Company or the whole chapter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Well the Blood Angels have been shown to have been down to only 50 men at one point of time. It specifically stated it in the Space Hulk rule booklet that explained the fluff. So at one point of time, thag was confirmed. Was that the First Company or the whole chapter? The whole chapter. It was before the Sin of Damnation, and why the Sin was such a big deal to them. It was a chance to do it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Question, how long does it take for a Blood Angel to go from raw recruit to power armored battle brother? The minimum time that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 They spend a year in their sarcophagus, then they do the typical codex scout training. IIRC, they are scouts for almost a decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Nope, it takes 1 year to get the genetic alterations that takes 10years for other chapters... the necessary training can be done in weeks/months by hypnotraining or extensive field training but with the enhancements in place thats doable. So if the genestock is available, and if anyone has sufficient Stocks it would be a first founding chapter, then they could have 1000 new marines in 18 months... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Nope, it takes 1 year to get the genetic alterations that takes 10years for other chapters... the necessary training can be done in weeks/months by hypnotraining or extensive field training but with the enhancements in place thats doable. So if the genestock is available, and if anyone has sufficient Stocks it would be a first founding chapter, then they could have 1000 new marines in 18 months... Ah, good point. I was wrong. However, I think their training process is the same. "Blood Angels Scouts face greater trials than most Chapters' new recruits, for on top of their standard training they must begin the process of mastering the flaw" Also, to the Sanguinary Priest thing with Lucien: When I say that they don't have apothecaries, I mean that they aren't... apothecaries. They are Sanguinary Priests which are not the same. Sanguinary Priests act as Chaplains and Apothecaries They are like the Wolf Priests. Wolf Priests are Space Wolf apothecaries, so if we read a book that said, "The Space Wolf Apothecary did this" would you say it's ok? Or would you say, "They don't have apothecaries." Not to mention that in the Blood Angel Omnibus, Tycho has already died (which means it's after the third war for Armegeddon began). That war began in 998.M41. The Shield of Baal takes place in 998.M41. Dante and Mephiston are in Cryptus, and Baal is fortified like never before. So the events that transpire in the book are impossible to take place during the current timeline of 40k. That means that it happened after M41, which can't be considered cannon because the actual, official timeline had not gotten there yet. So it isn't so much about me not liking what he did as it is that I don't see that we can accept it as cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Yes - the scouts training period is probably usually fairly similar to that of normal marines (though standard training in one chapter is not necessarily standard training in another chapter) with the slight side issue that they already have all the genemodding and bioenhancement sorted out (possibly still some parts catching up/not fully developed to maturity though?) but in a pinch, they 'could' concieveably kick out a heck of a lot of recruits within months, not decades (which was my point). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDice0809 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 First off, Yahtzee I love you videos Second, I agree that anything after 998M41 is really kind of suspect on the whole 'canon' issue. I think the changes made in the 5th edition expansion of fluff (for GK, DE, and others along with BA) means a lot of the former stuff is really suspect now. James Swallows shameless attempt to tie his former series to HH canon via his one short story aside, its hard to view a lot of the older stuff as canon- even the better stuff like that Ultramarine series. They still haven't changed the name of the 3rd Company Captain of theirs right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Perhaps they all have von Carstein rings? Seriously though, I wouldn't look at this into too much detail. To paraphase Gav Thorpe in regards to the Elven race in WFB: "GW has admitted they just write whatever numbers they want and there are as many elves as the plot demands.. This quite likely applies everywhere else too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Yes - the scouts training period is probably usually fairly similar to that of normal marines (though standard training in one chapter is not necessarily standard training in another chapter) with the slight side issue that they already have all the genemodding and bioenhancement sorted out (possibly still some parts catching up/not fully developed to maturity though?) but in a pinch, they 'could' concieveably kick out a heck of a lot of recruits within months, not decades (which was my point). Ah yes, agreed then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I'd be interested to get a bit more clarification on why Sangria opted for an accelerated development vs. the standard creation method. It's entirely possible that the accelerated method was done after he passed but for the most part it certainly seems like its been this way from the beginning. I am guessing that previous chapter annihilation after the heresy is what actually made the chapter turn to this method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 First off, Yahtzee I love you videos I don't think that's actually Yahzee. Yahzee is Australia based, no? Yes. Plot armour. There will always be as many marines as there needs to be. Remember, accounting in M41 is terrible, even before you factor in the warp. These events may occur in a short time period in Absolute Terran Time, however there may be many centuries between them Warp Time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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