Leonaides Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Spagunk- there was no 'standard' creation method when the ba were formed... other chapters have followed (or not) the suggestions in the codex astartes as appropriate for their geneline allowing for missing/faulty genetic adaptations but the ba's still use the same process as they did before the heresy. Hothousing the biological changes has had problems for other chapters but apparently not the ba's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Knight Posted October 13, 2015 Author Share Posted October 13, 2015 First off, Yahtzee I love you videos I don't think that's actually Yahzee. Yahzee is Australia based, no? Yes. Plot armour. There will always be as many marines as there needs to be. Remember, accounting in M41 is terrible, even before you factor in the warp. These events may occur in a short time period in Absolute Terran Time, however there may be many centuries between them Warp Time. Yeah I'm not Yahtzee, just a fan of his. The whole Yahtzee thing is that as a bit of a joke. By M41, the worship of Yahtzee around late M3 led to the creation of a daemon of snarky. cynical cynicism which is Yahtzee. The "Croshaw in the Morning" bit is me think that Yahtzee hosts a weekly radio program with a bunch of noise marines discussing various topics going on throughout the galaxy. It's all supposed to be something humorous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadDice0809 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Thats just what the REAL Yahtzee would say- just with less snark and profanity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 In 996.M40 the Blood Angels are left with only 50 marines after assaulting the genestealer infested space hulk Sin of Damnation (important to note that on the Lexicanum, the next notable campaign the Blood Angels take part in is in 187.M41, meaning they raised at least 1,950 marines over the course of less than 200 years) Why do you say over 1,950? Also, they don't have to have a full chapter to do a notable campaign. One to two companies is enough. in the Blood Angels novels, the Blood Angels are severely depleted following the "Arkio Insurrection" and Fabius's invasion of Baal Those books didn't happen. There are so many glaring issues (such as a Master Apothecary despite the fact that those don't exist for Blood Angels). Not only that, but they are never mentioned in the Codex (and something as major as that would be mentioned). It's carp, don't put stake on that. At the end of the Blood Angels novels, Dante asks the successor chapters to donate recruits to help refill the Blood Angels ranks. Considering the fact that a Blood Angels aspirant has to stay within a casket for a full year as their bodies adjust to the injection of Sanguinius's blood, it would be to the benefit of the Blood Angels if they could rebuild with new recruits that have already gone through the process. In addition to the recruits, the Blood Angels would also receive power armor, weapons, and other technology that takes a long time to create from their successor chapters. So I put forward the theory that despite the massive losses that the Blood Angels receive throughout their history (and that's not mentioning those lost to the Black Rage), they are able to quickly rebuild because of the donations of recruits and supplies they can gather from their successor chapters. Nope. Dante never asked that, they never called that meeting (it's not in the codex, and the only meeting they called in the 'dex was "The 'nids are coming. Come to Baal and help us!" Honestly, just forget the Blood Angel novels. Focus on the source material when it comes to Blood Angels. That would be Space Hulk and the Codex (and anything FW puts out). Excellent reply however you forgot one other piece of solid background for the Blood Angels, Fear to Tread. Which ironically was also penned by James Swallow, but much better than his Blood Angel omnibuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helias_Tancred Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Not to mention that in the Blood Angel Omnibus, Tycho has already died (which means it's after the third war for Armegeddon began). That war began in 998.M41. The Shield of Baal takes place in 998.M41. Dante and Mephiston are in Cryptus, and Baal is fortified like never before. So the events that transpire in the book are impossible to take place during the current timeline of 40k. In the first Blood Angel omnibus Captain Tycho is still alive, James Swallows has him in command of one of the vessels. (IIRC?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Not to mention that in the Blood Angel Omnibus, Tycho has already died (which means it's after the third war for Armegeddon began). That war began in 998.M41. The Shield of Baal takes place in 998.M41. Dante and Mephiston are in Cryptus, and Baal is fortified like never before. So the events that transpire in the book are impossible to take place during the current timeline of 40k. In the first Blood Angel omnibus Captain Tycho is still alive, James Swallows has him in command of one of the vessels. (IIRC?) No, one of the main points for turning against Dante was that they felt they hadn't done enough to avenge Tycho. He did have a short story with him, though. I believe that short story was in the omnibus. (Could be wrong, but that's how I remember it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Knight Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 Thats just what the REAL Yahtzee would say- just with less snark and profanity! No seriously, I am not Ben Yahtzee Croshaw. He's been on record as not being a fan of Warhammer. I don't want this to bite me butt later if people actually confuse me with the real Yahtzee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Spagunk- there was no 'standard' creation method when the ba were formed... other chapters have followed (or not) the suggestions in the codex astartes as appropriate for their geneline allowing for missing/faulty genetic adaptations but the ba's still use the same process as they did before the heresy. Hothousing the biological changes has had problems for other chapters but apparently not the ba's. Except there wasn't a codex prior to the Heresy, just the emperor's methods. There is still a possibility that something changed during the course of BA history that may have made the curse occur more frequently over time. As it was, injecting an aspirant with sanguinious' blood was not sustainable so they moved to injecting the living blood into the priests to preserve some of the power. So to say that it was the same pre-heresy to post-heresy isn't accurate. I mean we've always been at war with Eurasia, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Spagunk- there was no 'standard' creation method when the ba were formed... other chapters have followed (or not) the suggestions in the codex astartes as appropriate for their geneline allowing for missing/faulty genetic adaptations but the ba's still use the same process as they did before the heresy. Hothousing the biological changes has had problems for other chapters but apparently not the ba's. Except there wasn't a codex prior to the Heresy, just the emperor's methods. There is still a possibility that something changed during the course of BA history that may have made the curse occur more frequently over time. As it was, injecting an aspirant with sanguinious' blood was not sustainable so they moved to injecting the living blood into the priests to preserve some of the power. So to say that it was the same pre-heresy to post-heresy isn't accurate. I mean we've always been at war with Eurasia, right? The method and ritual is the same, the blood is just no longer pure. They have used the same ritual since the day sanguinius was found. After he died they just had diluted blood. The codex that you mention does not go into how Blood Angels activate their geneseed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 And the method used pre-heresy is written in which book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 And the method used pre-heresy is written in which book?The Blood Angel Codex. It's in the section explaining how they are made. When I get home I can give you the exact quote. -found it from a previous post of mine- "Indeed, at the time when the Space Marine Legions were created, the process was still highly experimental and many different ways of controlling and managing the transformation were tried. This led to the Space Wolves using the ritual known as Blooding, the Imperial Fists using the process known as the Hand of Faith, the White Scars conducting the Rites of the Risen Moon, and the Blood Angels using Insanguination... Insanguination was originally triggered by injecting the aspirants with tiny samples of their Primarch's own blood. This practice, of course, ended with the tragic death of Sanguinius...some of his blood was kept and preserved within the Red Grail..." Codex: Blood Angels, 7th Ed. Page 19 (also in other editions). So they use the same method, but the practice of using Sanguinius himself ended, considering he died. They still inject them with what is left of his blood, but it is diluted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 And the method used pre-heresy is written in which book?The Blood Angel Codex. It's in the section explaining how they are made. When I get home I can give you the exact quote. -found it from a previ That's what it is CURRENTLY is my point. So the HH novels established that part of curse was present already in the troops during years leading up to the heresy. After the heresy it is established that the curse got worse. What if the reason for the escalated rate that the curse appears is due to the need to recover from catastrophic chapter losses quickly? And what if this knowledge was intentionally lost or misinterpreted to mean that it was ALWAYS this way when in fact it wasn't? I feel you are trying to argue with me that there is no possibility that anything could have changed and I merely surmised that perhaps the truth was lost in the 10k years time between the HH and modern 40k. Pure speculation really. P.S. I have the book right here in my hands so i know what the BA book says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I added the actual quote in. But that makes it pretty clear that the ritual was the same. The codex doesn't give false information. It may give "unsure information" but when it states something without saying "could be rumors" it is generally correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Void Knight Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 Do the Blood Angels count those in Death Company as casualties or do they still consider them a part of chapter strength? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I added the actual quote in. But that makes it pretty clear that the ritual was the same. The codex doesn't give false information. It may give "unsure information" but when it states something without saying "could be rumors" it is generally correct. It also doesn't cover the 1 year gestation time it takes for a human to become a BA so my speculation stands. Why does it take us 1 year while other chapters take longer? I get that the sarcophagus thing is just to keep the blood pure but what if it was the method to accelerate the creation process unnecessarily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Spagunk - during the HH, other chapters used a shorter 'gestation' time too. One of the changes RG brought in with the Codex WAS a longer period of adaptation to reduce the possibility that the short period of genehancement may have had some effect on marines turning traitor. I have no idea what evidence (if any) this speculation may have been based on - as far as I know it was never specified. So, from that perspective - its not that the BA's have a shorter gestation period, but that some/most other chapters have a longer period. I know there was no codex prior to the heresy, but as has already been pointed out - other chapters used a variety of methods then, and now seem to have generally moved slightly towards the recommendations as set out in the Codex (although as a lot of the initial and indeed current methods have not been specified that is not certain). After the heresy - the curse got worse. yes, it did. There may also be another reason that you have forgotten - the Blood Angels (and decendants) alone out of all other Space Marines have their geneseed cultured from the body of a deceased primarch. Their legion genebanks/stores were destroyed during the battle of Terra and new geneseed had to be sourced from Sanguinius' body after it was retrieved. While this makes no sense (surely they would have had some stocks on their homeworld of Baal instead of having to ship it out from Terra for each batch of recruits), that is what has been stated in any background material touching on that subject and not retconned at this time. Edit - not sure what the curse has to do with the OP anyway...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Leonaides, I don't think they ship it from Terra. The blood of Sanguinius is basically "replicated" on Baal. all they do with the blood is use it to activate the geneseed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I thought the codex says that the Sanguinary priests now supply the blood, as they themselves, replicate it in their bodies, being the vessel into which the remnant blood of Sanguinius was emplaced as Sanguinary priests? The only thing of the ritual being the chalice into which the blood is distributed having been sanctified by Sanguinius. (as an aside, this mechanic is essentially analogous to "Apostolic Succession" that the Anglican and Catholic Churches use in sanctifying a new Bishop, and therefore their own Priests. It is the laying on of hands of at least three Brethren who can trace their own sanctification back to at least three attendees of the last supper). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Shipping from terra was in relation to hh period, not now and also me pointing out the major plot problem for the ba's entire genestock being destroyed during the siege of terra, even though it made no sense for their entire stock to be there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Commander Scrymgeour Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Er..... I think in 40k the answer is basically whatever you want it to be. There's so much contradiction and gaps in the information, and we are essentially talking about 1000 legendary angels. Also remember that most of the 40k artwork depicts last stands, noble deaths, desperate charges etc. so it makes sense that the most tragic chapter has incidents of almost comlete destruction. That being said, I love the idea of thousands of lost brothers waiting in sarcophogi for the final battle, or that the sarcophogi contain brothers who aren't "officially" on the chapter rosters, or perhaps that's the real reason that they wear masks, change names upon promotion etc. Is Dante really a gestalt of heroes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 . There may also be another reason that you have forgotten - the Blood Angels (and decendants) alone out of all other Space Marines have their geneseed cultured from the body of a deceased primarch. T No, I have not forgotten this. Been trying to read all the BA fluff since 1999 so I am pretty aware of this fact. The fact that the primarch is deceased is what prompted his left over blood to be transferred to Sanguinary priests in the first place. I am just speculating that the rapid gestation of new marines for BA may be a possible cause for accelerated instances of black rage/red thirst over time. The current fluff only indicates what the process is now and writes as if this was always the case. It is possible that in the pre-heresy days a rapid growth wasn't necessary so they took longer. Then, after the heresy, the chapter had a few notable instances of annihilation events which may have prompted the Apothecaries to use the sarcophagus' to speed the process up and thus recoup losses. Then, over time, it just became normal and now it's just done this way. Just speculating. Anything is possible since the fluff is pretty fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Shipping from terra was in relation to hh period, not now and also me pointing out the major plot problem for the ba's entire genestock being destroyed during the siege of terra, even though it made no sense for their entire stock to be there...I think that's why they had that little short story Lost Sons about Malcador the Sigillite using the BA's disappearance at Signus to try and liquidate their resources at Baal. To explain how it all wound up at Terra. As I recall, the story was rather open ended about what actually happened to it all, just that it didn't leave the IX Legion's ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Must have missed that story - will have to track it down. Spagunk - the current fluff for the Codex Astartes inlcudes how it introduced/standardised a slower creation period for marines, as a fast rate was thought to have possibly been at least partially responsible for marines going traitor (as an aside the evidence for such an opinion is never stated - this may be related to the Raven Guard geneseed being corrupted (and the resultant weregild or whatever they were called), or other legions issues with short gestation periods), along with making sure that each chapter only received its own geneseed from then onwards (a little snippet that suggests that the HH legions might not have been quite so genetically pure during the HH, given that afterrwards one of the specified recruitment changes was to ensure such geneseed supply purity - could it be that the traitor legion loyalists who didn't turn didn't actually share geneseed with the traitors, could the loyalist legion traitors have been the flip side?). The BA's are specified to still use the exact machines used during the great crusade to create their marines, and there are a couple of short stories that mention/support this and the current fluff does indicate that this is still in the same process that it used to be, barring the fact that the blood supplied is the combined blood of the Sanguinary priesthood (who are all carriers of the blood of Sanguinius) rather than from Sang himself. And I think in focussing on the diluted blood of the primarch being used you are overlooking the fact that the very organs used are from a dead body, not a live one like every other marine lineage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spagunk Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 Every chapter uses "dead" organs. It's why apothecaries all have reductors. Used to be a wargear item in 2nd/3rd edition but no longer. The reductor harvests the progenoid glands from deceased marines to be used in creating new glands/marines. You don't harvest tissue from Primarchs, no one does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted October 15, 2015 Share Posted October 15, 2015 But the organs aren't from a dead body, just the blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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