Book XXXIII

[Kriegsmacht]

 

 

not everything needs to be explained in the Heresy.

 

One could say that for a lot of the Heresy so far.

[A D-B]

 

not everything needs to be explained in the Heresy.

 

One could say that for a lot of the Heresy so far.

 

 

One could! And, at many meetings, I have. I don't like subverting everything; I've loved this lore for over 20 years, and some of its roots works better (for me) in mystery or without being subverted as a surprise twist. It's come up at signings and panels a lot.

 

There's no wrong or right, though. I don't think I'm right just because I'm conservative about this stuff, just as I don't think anyone else is wrong for their preference on twists and shining lights.

[KJB]

Is there a short story set before this novel that I'm missing? Specifically concerning the Lion, that Scout and what happened in the depths of the Pharos?

Oh come on, help a brother out - it's Christmas!!

[Kriegsmacht]

I could be wrong but I think I read on here that there is an upcoming anthology book that takes place during Imperium Secundus(?).

 

Edit: Ah ok it was actually in this thread. It was mentioned that the anthology is going to be released at w40k open day.

[Taliesin]

 

Is there a short story set before this novel that I'm missing? Specifically concerning the Lion, that Scout and what happened in the depths of the Pharos?

Oh come on, help a brother out - it's Christmas!!

 

 

I believe it is this one.

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24513508-a-safe-and-shadowed-place

 

It's in the Death and Defiance collection if I recall correctly.

[Marshal Loss]

At the end, the Great Devourer turns its gaze upon the galaxy...

A nice link to 40k!

At one of the last meetings I was at, I pleaded with them not to do that, as part of the "Let's not subvert absolutely every fact in 40K" pitch. I knew they'd do it anyway (conservatism has no place at those meetings), but I wanted to register at least some opposition with the idea that not everything needs to be explained in the Heresy. Not everything in the setting needs to be attributed to something that happened 10,000 years before. There's continuity, and then there's "Actually, Darth Vader was the one to build C3-P0! And he was besties with R2-D2, too! And Yoda knew Chewbacca! And that cool bounty hunter Boba Fett is actually the template for all the Stormtroopers! And--" etc.

I think

the Great Devourer being drawn by the light of the Astronomican is a far, far darker, stronger, more thematic and appropriate idea - the vital salvation of Mankind is also its undoing; it's the Emperor's own beacon that's drawing darkness from another galaxy - than the Tyranids showing up in the galaxy just because a previously unknown artefact that has next to nothing to do with anything else in the galaxy once hiccuped during the Horus Heresy.

But on the flip side, I dig that people love it. If you're going to lose a fight, there's no better result than that.

For whatever reason I'd assumed it was Pharos since the lighthouse was introduced to 30k (and know a lot of others who held this view too, I suppose it being in Ultramar was a bit of a giveaway) so it felt like a confirmation rather than a usurping of a parallel theory to me; BL always have written/edited from a 40k perspective, rightly or wrongly, even after the heresy train began gaining momentum. In general I agree, more ambiguity would be nice. I'm a classicist/ancient history postgrad though so the accumulation and confirmation of facts is a personal hobby of mine.

It is interesting - but not surprising - to hear that you're overruled on things like this poorly phrased, but that there are few (if any?) others who also share your view, assuming 'them' includes other authors as well. Appreciate the insight!

[Prot]

Good catch. I missed this one. Also loving the first few chapters.

 

 

 

 

 

Is there a short story set before this novel that I'm missing? Specifically concerning the Lion, that Scout and what happened in the depths of the Pharos?

 

Oh come on, help a brother out - it's Christmas!!

 

I believe it is this one.

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24513508-a-safe-and-shadowed-place

 

It's in the Death and Defiance collection if I recall correctly.

[Felix Antipodes]

 

 

 

 

At the end, the Great Devourer turns its gaze upon the galaxy...

 

 

 

A nice link to 40k!

 

 

At one of the last meetings I was at, I pleaded with them not to do that, as part of the "Let's not subvert absolutely every fact in 40K" pitch. I knew they'd do it anyway (conservatism has no place at those meetings), but I wanted to register at least some opposition with the idea that not everything needs to be explained in the Heresy. Not everything in the setting needs to be attributed to something that happened 10,000 years before. There's continuity, and then there's "Actually, Darth Vader was the one to build C3-P0! And he was besties with R2-D2, too! And Yoda knew Chewbacca! And that cool bounty hunter Boba Fett is actually the template for all the Stormtroopers! And--" etc.

 

I think

the Great Devourer being drawn by the light of the Astronomican is a far, far darker, stronger, more thematic and appropriate idea - the vital salvation of Mankind is also its undoing; it's the Emperor's own beacon that's drawing darkness from another galaxy - than the Tyranids showing up in the galaxy just because a previously unknown artefact that has next to nothing to do with anything else in the galaxy once hiccuped during the Horus Heresy.

 

 

But on the flip side, I dig that people love it. If you're going to lose a fight, there's no better result than that.

 

 

For whatever reason I'd assumed it was Pharos since the lighthouse was introduced to 30k (and know a lot of others who held this view too, I suppose it being in Ultramar was a bit of a giveaway) so it felt like a confirmation rather than a usurping of a parallel theory to me; BL always have written/edited from a 40k perspective, rightly or wrongly, even after the heresy train began gaining momentum. In general I agree, more ambiguity would be nice. I'm a classicist/ancient history postgrad though so the accumulation and confirmation of facts is a personal hobby of mine. ;)

 

It is interesting - but not surprising - to hear that you're overruled on things like this.  Appreciate the insight!

This could be read as a win for both sides - Pharos got their attention but they use the latter as the actual beacon (being vague to avoid spoilers but I'm sure my meaning is clear).

[Fire Golem]

That's what I was thinking, that the Pharos was the initial 'ooh, look...' But the Astronomicon is what's kept them coming.

[A D-B]

That's what I was thinking, that the Pharos was the initial 'ooh, look...' But the Astronomicon is what's kept them coming.

 

That's pretty much what I argued against. The initial "Oh, look..." should probably be because of the loudest, brightest light in the galaxy, no? Something that would attract the Great Devourer's attention? Maybe something like the manifest psychic energy of hundreds of dying psykers every day channelled through the will of a living god acting as the salvation of Mankind and the reason Warp travel is possible. The Emperor's psychic might, reaching across fifty thousand light years of the galaxy, illuminating the darkness of the Warp. It's even called "the Ray of Hope", and it's heralding the galaxy's death from beyond the galactic rim. That's thematically beautiful. That's pure 40K. 

 

Rather than, say, an infinitely lesser artefact getting switched on and off.

 

I mean, I get it. It's a hook and it makes yet another 40K trope have "more important" roots in the Heresy, and is yet another example of 40K ignorance, and the whole point of 40K is ignorance. But it's not particularly thematically strong, the same way Darth Vader building C3-P0 certainly helped continuity but didn't actually add anything. Sometimes the old lore we've loved for 25+ years is good enough not to change. The Tyranids coming to the galaxy, drawn by the Emperor's light, is awesome and a major factor in their lore since they started getting lore. 

 

Though, again, I feel comfortable enough revealing all this because eight squilllion of these conversations happen all the time (this one happened long before Guy even joined the team, for example) and winning or losing them runs about equal. Then there are the ones you win which you regret winning, and the ones you lose which you decide you prefer after all. It's a bizarre amount of fun.

[Kriegsmacht]

Now you have me curious ADB did you win anything that you regretted?

[Fire Golem]

Yeah, good point. I don't overly mind it, but like you say it doesn't really add anything - I'd feel exactly the same if it wasn't in the book. It wasn't really necessary.

 

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the black library meetings...

[Marshal Rohr]

With all these references to the prequels someone needs to write a 'what if 30/40k were good' series.

[b1soul]

Hmm...isn't the Pharos rather inconsequential? Yeah...it attracted the Great Devourer pre-Astronomican, but had the Pharos never been activates, the Astronomican would have attracted the Great Devourer's initial attention. Either way, the Nids were going to spot the 40K galaxy around the time of the Heresy

[Kriegsmacht]

I guess that would be the point. If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways? Thinking it over it does make it seem like fan service and nothing else.

[Sabadin]

If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways?

The way I see it, unless they were already on track to the galaxy anyway, the astronomicon alone wouldn't have gotten their attention. It's documented numerous times that by the eastern fringe the astronomicon is already so dim as to be near invisible. I highly doubt it would be seen by something 10000 years travel away.

 

This way makes sense. It explains why the initial fleet beelines to Ultramar, makes it far enough inward to now sense the astronomicon,and suddenly all further fleets are on a direct route to Terra.

[Prot]

Sometimes when I read this stuff I strongly start to feel something could change in the future history of 40k. There are story hooks that provide that mechanism and I think this novel provides one.

 

I am only halfway through but I am finding this to be a refreshing change from some of the recent stuff that has had friends of mine tell me they're officially done with the series. (I am trying to convince them to come back for this one and MoM)

 

Man are the Night Lords messed up. I LOVE the contrast in reading the combat differences in the Ultramarines and Night Lords. it's an interesting balancing game Guy is playing thus far and thankfully for the time being Ultramarines aren't coming off as the kid about to lose his lunch money on the way to school.

[A D-B]

 

If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways?

The way I see it, unless they were already on track to the galaxy anyway, the astronomicon alone wouldn't have gotten their attention. It's documented numerous times that by the eastern fringe the astronomicon is already so dim as to be near invisible. I highly doubt it would be seen by something 10000 years travel away.

 

This way makes sense. It explains why the initial fleet beelines to Ultramar, makes it far enough inward to now sense the astronomicon,and suddenly all further fleets are on a direct route to Terra.

 

 

That's why it doesn't make sense, though. Or, rather, why the sense it makes is temporary and weak. Look at the scale between galaxies. The unimaginably vast distances. If the Astronomican isn't even remotely visible or possibly sensed by the Great Devourer over that distance (which isn't true, as we've always known it was visible, in some limited, tiny way at least)... a random artefact is? This artefact is several hundred times brighter and more powerful than the Astronomican? It can reach that much farther? There's just no way that's true, and even less way it makes sense. 

 

The Astronomican is one of the pillars of the setting's themes and history, and has always been the reason the Great Devourer is coming into the galaxy. That's always going to be thematic and compelling and appropriate to me than the alternative, especially when the alternative will need to be several bajillion times brighter and more powerful than the ultimate expression of the Emperor's power in order to make sense in your example above.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

 

If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways?

The way I see it, unless they were already on track to the galaxy anyway, the astronomicon alone wouldn't have gotten their attention. It's documented numerous times that by the eastern fringe the astronomicon is already so dim as to be near invisible. I highly doubt it would be seen by something 10000 years travel away.

 

This way makes sense. It explains why the initial fleet beelines to Ultramar, makes it far enough inward to now sense the astronomicon,and suddenly all further fleets are on a direct route to Terra.

 

 

That's why it doesn't make sense, though. Or, rather, why the sense it makes is temporary and weak. Look at the scale between galaxies. The unimaginably vast distances. If the Astronomican isn't even remotely visible or possibly sensed by the Great Devourer over that distance (which isn't true, as we've always known it was visible, in some limited, tiny way at least)... a random artefact is? This artefact is several hundred times brighter and more powerful than the Astronomican? It can reach that much farther? There's just no way that's true, and even less way it makes sense. 

 

The Astronomican is one of the pillars of the setting's themes and history, and has always been the reason the Great Devourer is coming into the galaxy. That's always going to be thematic and compelling and appropriate to me than the alternative, especially when the alternative will need to be several bajillion times brighter and more powerful than the ultimate expression of the Emperor's power in order to make sense in your example above.

 

Why not? We know that it's a) a Necron artifact of some sort (or an Old one, but given the 'greenish light' stuff it's probably Necron imo) and b ) it would make some sense as in the Of Mars trilogy the Old Ones are hinted at being universal rather than galactic. Since we also know that the C'Tan largely influenced most Necrontyr tech, how could the Necrontyr stand up to a universal civilization without having some measure of tech that reaches outside the galactic reaches? 

I mean, don't get me wrong, the Big E is the Big Daddy ... in 40k. Whatever powers the Old Ones unleashed in their fight with the C'Tan quite honestly dwarfs anything we've ever seen in 40k, 30k, or DAoT. 

Necrons are hax man.

And tbh it doesn't make much sense for the Astronomican, which can't even be seen from the farther fringes of Imperial Space, to be extragalactic - at least, not to the degree that it'd attract all of our favorite om noming space bugs.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways?

The way I see it, unless they were already on track to the galaxy anyway, the astronomicon alone wouldn't have gotten their attention. It's documented numerous times that by the eastern fringe the astronomicon is already so dim as to be near invisible. I highly doubt it would be seen by something 10000 years travel away.

 

This way makes sense. It explains why the initial fleet beelines to Ultramar, makes it far enough inward to now sense the astronomicon,and suddenly all further fleets are on a direct route to Terra.

That's why it doesn't make sense, though. Or, rather, why the sense it makes is temporary and weak. Look at the scale between galaxies. The unimaginably vast distances. If the Astronomican isn't even remotely visible or possibly sensed by the Great Devourer over that distance (which isn't true, as we've always known it was visible, in some limited, tiny way at least)... a random artefact is? This artefact is several hundred times brighter and more powerful than the Astronomican? It can reach that much farther? There's just no way that's true, and even less way it makes sense.

 

The Astronomican is one of the pillars of the setting's themes and history, and has always been the reason the Great Devourer is coming into the galaxy. That's always going to be thematic and compelling and appropriate to me than the alternative, especially when the alternative will need to be several bajillion times brighter and more powerful than the ultimate expression of the Emperor's power in order to make sense in your example above.

Why not? We know that it's a) a Necron artifact of some sort (or an Old one, but given the 'greenish light' stuff it's probably Necron imo) and b ) it would make some sense as in the Of Mars trilogy the Old Ones are hinted at being universal rather than galactic. Since we also know that the C'Tan largely influenced most Necrontyr tech, how could the Necrontyr stand up to a universal civilization without having some measure of tech that reaches outside the galactic reaches?

I mean, don't get me wrong, the Big E is the Big Daddy ... in 40k. Whatever powers the Old Ones unleashed in their fight with the C'Tan quite honestly dwarfs anything we've ever seen in 40k, 30k, or DAoT.

Necrons are hax man.

And tbh it doesn't make much sense for the Astronomican, which can't even be seen from the farther fringes of Imperial Space, to be extragalactic - at least, not to the degree that it'd attract all of our favorite om noming space bugs.

You're missing the larger point. So far we've had the Necrons shoehorned in twice with the Pharos AND the thing on Mars being the only reason humans can invent stuff. Now they've shoehorned in the Tyranids. It'll only take a passing reference to primitive Tau and everybody will have made an appearance in 30K

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

 

 

 

If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways?

The way I see it, unless they were already on track to the galaxy anyway, the astronomicon alone wouldn't have gotten their attention. It's documented numerous times that by the eastern fringe the astronomicon is already so dim as to be near invisible. I highly doubt it would be seen by something 10000 years travel away.

 

This way makes sense. It explains why the initial fleet beelines to Ultramar, makes it far enough inward to now sense the astronomicon,and suddenly all further fleets are on a direct route to Terra.

That's why it doesn't make sense, though. Or, rather, why the sense it makes is temporary and weak. Look at the scale between galaxies. The unimaginably vast distances. If the Astronomican isn't even remotely visible or possibly sensed by the Great Devourer over that distance (which isn't true, as we've always known it was visible, in some limited, tiny way at least)... a random artefact is? This artefact is several hundred times brighter and more powerful than the Astronomican? It can reach that much farther? There's just no way that's true, and even less way it makes sense.

 

The Astronomican is one of the pillars of the setting's themes and history, and has always been the reason the Great Devourer is coming into the galaxy. That's always going to be thematic and compelling and appropriate to me than the alternative, especially when the alternative will need to be several bajillion times brighter and more powerful than the ultimate expression of the Emperor's power in order to make sense in your example above.

Why not? We know that it's a) a Necron artifact of some sort (or an Old one, but given the 'greenish light' stuff it's probably Necron imo) and b ) it would make some sense as in the Of Mars trilogy the Old Ones are hinted at being universal rather than galactic. Since we also know that the C'Tan largely influenced most Necrontyr tech, how could the Necrontyr stand up to a universal civilization without having some measure of tech that reaches outside the galactic reaches?

I mean, don't get me wrong, the Big E is the Big Daddy ... in 40k. Whatever powers the Old Ones unleashed in their fight with the C'Tan quite honestly dwarfs anything we've ever seen in 40k, 30k, or DAoT.

Necrons are hax man.

And tbh it doesn't make much sense for the Astronomican, which can't even be seen from the farther fringes of Imperial Space, to be extragalactic - at least, not to the degree that it'd attract all of our favorite om noming space bugs.

You're missing the larger point. So far we've had the Necrons shoehorned in twice with the Pharos AND the thing on Mars being the only reason humans can invent stuff. Now they've shoehorned in the Tyranids. It'll only take a passing reference to primitive Tau and everybody will have made an appearance in 30K

 

That's a valid point, but the lore aspect of it and how it makes or doesn't make sense is something that can be discussed without discussing what one thinks about the 'it's a small world' trope.

[Prot]

 

 

If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways?

 

The way I see it, unless they were already on track to the galaxy anyway, the astronomicon alone wouldn't have gotten their attention. It's documented numerous times that by the eastern fringe the astronomicon is already so dim as to be near invisible. I highly doubt it would be seen by something 10000 years travel away.

This way makes sense. It explains why the initial fleet beelines to Ultramar, makes it far enough inward to now sense the astronomicon,and suddenly all further fleets are on a direct route to Terra.

 

That's why it doesn't make sense, though. Or, rather, why the sense it makes is temporary and weak. Look at the scale between galaxies. The unimaginably vast distances. If the Astronomican isn't even remotely visible or possibly sensed by the Great Devourer over that distance (which isn't true, as we've always known it was visible, in some limited, tiny way at least)... a random artefact is? This artefact is several hundred times brighter and more powerful than the Astronomican? It can reach that much farther? There's just no way that's true, and even less way it makes sense. 

 

The Astronomican is one of the pillars of the setting's themes and history, and has always been the reason the Great Devourer is coming into the galaxy. That's always going to be thematic and compelling and appropriate to me than the alternative, especially when the alternative will need to be several bajillion times brighter and more powerful than the ultimate expression of the Emperor's power in order to make sense in your example above.

 

 

Maybe it's the way you are viewing the method employed to create the signal.

 

Perhaps the artefact is using an extremely different mechanism of accomplishing the same effect as the Astronomicon?

 

Maybe it is equivalent to cooking popcorn in a hot air popper versus a microwave? Perhaps even the emperor is still relying on Jiffy pop to enjoy the same savoury treat you and I can enjoy in under 2 minutes in our microwaves? :D

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

 

 

 

If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways?

The way I see it, unless they were already on track to the galaxy anyway, the astronomicon alone wouldn't have gotten their attention. It's documented numerous times that by the eastern fringe the astronomicon is already so dim as to be near invisible. I highly doubt it would be seen by something 10000 years travel away.

 

This way makes sense. It explains why the initial fleet beelines to Ultramar, makes it far enough inward to now sense the astronomicon,and suddenly all further fleets are on a direct route to Terra.

That's why it doesn't make sense, though. Or, rather, why the sense it makes is temporary and weak. Look at the scale between galaxies. The unimaginably vast distances. If the Astronomican isn't even remotely visible or possibly sensed by the Great Devourer over that distance (which isn't true, as we've always known it was visible, in some limited, tiny way at least)... a random artefact is? This artefact is several hundred times brighter and more powerful than the Astronomican? It can reach that much farther? There's just no way that's true, and even less way it makes sense.

 

The Astronomican is one of the pillars of the setting's themes and history, and has always been the reason the Great Devourer is coming into the galaxy. That's always going to be thematic and compelling and appropriate to me than the alternative, especially when the alternative will need to be several bajillion times brighter and more powerful than the ultimate expression of the Emperor's power in order to make sense in your example above.

Why not? We know that it's a) a Necron artifact of some sort (or an Old one, but given the 'greenish light' stuff it's probably Necron imo) and b ) it would make some sense as in the Of Mars trilogy the Old Ones are hinted at being universal rather than galactic. Since we also know that the C'Tan largely influenced most Necrontyr tech, how could the Necrontyr stand up to a universal civilization without having some measure of tech that reaches outside the galactic reaches?

I mean, don't get me wrong, the Big E is the Big Daddy ... in 40k. Whatever powers the Old Ones unleashed in their fight with the C'Tan quite honestly dwarfs anything we've ever seen in 40k, 30k, or DAoT.

Necrons are hax man.

And tbh it doesn't make much sense for the Astronomican, which can't even be seen from the farther fringes of Imperial Space, to be extragalactic - at least, not to the degree that it'd attract all of our favorite om noming space bugs.

You're missing the larger point. So far we've had the Necrons shoehorned in twice with the Pharos AND the thing on Mars being the only reason humans can invent stuff. Now they've shoehorned in the Tyranids. It'll only take a passing reference to primitive Tau and everybody will have made an appearance in 30K

That's a valid point, but the lore aspect of it and how it makes or doesn't make sense is something that can be discussed without discussing what one thinks about the 'it's a small world' trope.

True, though I think ADB is probably being reserved in his criticism of the Pharos and approaching it from a lore standpoint instead of criticizing the 'it's a small world trope'.

[b1soul]

I think ADB is criticizing both the "small world" trope and the thematic weakness (which would still be an out-of-universe criticism).

[ZebraM]

So wait, where did the Lion go?