Book XXXIII

[b1soul]

Secret mission...maybe another HH novel

[Silent Observant]

Angels of Caliban (Gav Thorpe) - about the lion, Imperium Secundus, And the wider War, we will see where my favorite primarch has been and what he is hiding

[Fire Golem]

 

 

 

If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways?

The way I see it, unless they were already on track to the galaxy anyway, the astronomicon alone wouldn't have gotten their attention. It's documented numerous times that by the eastern fringe the astronomicon is already so dim as to be near invisible. I highly doubt it would be seen by something 10000 years travel away.

 

This way makes sense. It explains why the initial fleet beelines to Ultramar, makes it far enough inward to now sense the astronomicon,and suddenly all further fleets are on a direct route to Terra.

That's why it doesn't make sense, though. Or, rather, why the sense it makes is temporary and weak. Look at the scale between galaxies. The unimaginably vast distances. If the Astronomican isn't even remotely visible or possibly sensed by the Great Devourer over that distance (which isn't true, as we've always known it was visible, in some limited, tiny way at least)... a random artefact is? This artefact is several hundred times brighter and more powerful than the Astronomican? It can reach that much farther? There's just no way that's true, and even less way it makes sense.

 

The Astronomican is one of the pillars of the setting's themes and history, and has always been the reason the Great Devourer is coming into the galaxy. That's always going to be thematic and compelling and appropriate to me than the alternative, especially when the alternative will need to be several bajillion times brighter and more powerful than the ultimate expression of the Emperor's power in order to make sense in your example above.

I've not read the novel yet, so I could be wrong, but I thought it was the destruction of the Pharos that caught the nids eye? I could see it being brighter than the Astronomicon for that instant.

 

Looking back I can't find it, I was sure I read that it was destroyed, but probably just going crazy!

[Sabadin]

Dantioch essentially turns off the safeties and dials it up to 200% to make a black hole to try to defeat the Night Lords. The Pharos then basically goes all Chernobyl on him.

[Retributis]

I think that you can't use the Astronomicon as an extra-galactic lure for the nids and say that it's light wanes at the furthest reaches of our galaxy making the outer reaches a hard-to-get-to-place. One or the other has to be true :P The one time ping of the Sothan device going bang serves as an awakening for the great devouring - A flashing light in a darkened pond - that prompts them to come see what tasty treats this galaxy has for them. Once they get nearer they head for Terra due to the Emperor's Light. It works for me.

 

As for "Pharos" as a whole... I absolutely loved it. Whether it's something to do with my mood at the moment or the time of year or what I don't know, but I think this is absolutely up there in the top 5 HH books, and possibly breaching the top 5 Black Library novels. I've read some complains of Mary Sue-ism but I don't know who that could be referencing, as all the characters feel fully fleshed out, complete with both good and bad traits (and not all of them survive...). I think it's the HH novel I needed after the somehwat iffy Vulkan Lives and then the few seemingly non-HH novels that have been about recently.

 

TL;DR - Loved it. 10/10 would buy again.

[Conn Eremon]

While I'm not invested in the idea that it should have been the Astronomican, I disagree that it can't be both simultaneously. While I won't argue that it could be both, it's just that I think people are drawing parallels where none exist. The Tyranids are not the Navigators. What a Navigator can see will not be what the Tyranids can see. And how far the Astronomican reaches visually (or can be otherwise sensed) is not the same as how far human ships can navigate by it.

 

All that said, the idea that this pale reflection of that light could, briefly, flare with greater intensity is alright with me. I don't think this fact eclipses the Golden Throne. I imagine that its eventual, inevitable end will trigger a far, far greater flare.

[Mantras]

Another interesting spoiler:

 

During Night Haunters "conversation" with Sang, they debate whether it was coincidence or deliberate action that the Primarch's were scattered across the galaxy, and all ended up on worlds that played to their inherent strengths/weaknesses (Russ on Fenris for example).

 

Crurze asserts his belief that this was the Emperors design, and Sang eventually agrees with him, saying he did not believe it was an accident. Then the really interesting part is: Night Haunter tells Sang that he firmly believes the Emperor knew Horus would turn, and it was part of his plan.

 

Anyone else think that's interesting and moves forward the thinking?

[Praetor of Calth]

Another interesting spoiler:

 

During Night Haunters "conversation" with Sang, they debate whether it was coincidence or deliberate action that the Primarch's were scattered across the galaxy, and all ended up on worlds that played to their inherent strengths/weaknesses (Russ on Fenris for example).

 

Crurze asserts his belief that this was the Emperors design, and Sang eventually agrees with him, saying he did not believe it was an accident. Then the really interesting part is: Night Haunter tells Sang that he firmly believes the Emperor knew Horus would turn, and it was part of his plan.

 

Anyone else think that's interesting and moves forward the thinking?

Very interesting, in fact if I was to guess. I'd say that's an idea that will be brought up in MoM.

[Prot]

I am nearing the end of this book and thoroughly enjoying it. Below I may add some spoilers to the conversation so please don't read if you don't want any story leaks.....

 

 

 

 

Another interesting spoiler:

 

During Night Haunters "conversation" with Sang, they debate whether it was coincidence or deliberate action that the Primarch's were scattered across the galaxy, and all ended up on worlds that played to their inherent strengths/weaknesses (Russ on Fenris for example).

 

Crurze asserts his belief that this was the Emperors design, and Sang eventually agrees with him, saying he did not believe it was an accident. Then the really interesting part is: Night Haunter tells Sang that he firmly believes the Emperor knew Horus would turn, and it was part of his plan.

 

Anyone else think that's interesting and moves forward the thinking?

 

- I found this whole conversation VERY interesting. It very much reminds me of a 'tool' ADB uses where we feel like we are getting 'inside' information that actually amounts to -nothing-. lol 

 

What I mean is this is all conjecture. It may come from a unique source but it changes nothing. If we go back to how ADB described the Emperor's Lab we get a very,very similar/special insight, but it is equally flawed because admittedly this is a point of view dictated by a Warp Entity giving a rose tinted look at the scene to Logar (I think it was him- I haven't read First Heretic in ages). 

 

So here we have something to ponder but I also remember reading another tid bit eons ago: The emperor was baking his kids and just before the microwave dinged and dinner was done, Chaos figured out the Emperor was planning to kill anything Warp related using his microwave super babies. Chaos did all it could to simply grab the super babies and disrupt his plans....

 

To me this makes the most logical sense because the Emperor would have nothing to gain by losing control of his super babies and inevitably risking taint out of his control on far off worlds.

 

That's just my conjecture which is probably full of crap as I actually believe the Emperor is a Daemon of 'balance'. I believe he IS the balance to Chaos and neither side can ever truly win or becomes reborn... but I think WE are to chaos what Chaos is to US. We are yin and yang. The Emperor is our Greatest Daemon and his primarch daemon babies are his counter to Greater Daemons. We're just a bunch of 'Furies' that are farts in the wind. (but we are equally necessary to power the Emperor as a lesser daemon is necessary to keep things chaosy in the warp)

 

 

While I'm not invested in the idea that it should have been the Astronomican, I disagree that it can't be both simultaneously. While I won't argue that it could be both, it's just that I think people are drawing parallels where none exist. The Tyranids are not the Navigators. What a Navigator can see will not be what the Tyranids can see. And how far the Astronomican reaches visually (or can be otherwise sensed) is not the same as how far human ships can navigate by it.

All that said, the idea that this pale reflection of that light could, briefly, flare with greater intensity is alright with me. I don't think this fact eclipses the Golden Throne. I imagine that its eventual, inevitable end will trigger a far, far greater flare.

 

I agree. Also I have another theory. The use of the Pharos has a 'signature' about it. That signature reminds the Tyranids (if they can even get a sniff of it is debatable) that conjures up images of Necrons. The Tyranids don't really like metal... to much iron in the diet makes it hard to poo. So when they get a whiff of this thing going off, it just reminds them of bad cramps and indigestion. 

[A D-B]

I think that you can't use the Astronomicon as an extra-galactic lure for the nids and say that it's light wanes at the furthest reaches of our galaxy making the outer reaches a hard-to-get-to-place. One or the other has to be true The one time ping of the Sothan device going bang serves as an awakening for the great devouring - A flashing light in a darkened pond - that prompts them to come see what tasty treats this galaxy has for them. Once they get nearer they head for Terra due to the Emperor's Light. It works for me.

If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways?

The way I see it, unless they were already on track to the galaxy anyway, the astronomicon alone wouldn't have gotten their attention. It's documented numerous times that by the eastern fringe the astronomicon is already so dim as to be near invisible. I highly doubt it would be seen by something 10000 years travel away.

This way makes sense. It explains why the initial fleet beelines to Ultramar, makes it far enough inward to now sense the astronomicon,and suddenly all further fleets are on a direct route to Terra.

That's why it doesn't make sense, though. Or, rather, why the sense it makes is temporary and weak. Look at the scale between galaxies. The unimaginably vast distances. If the Astronomican isn't even remotely visible or possibly sensed by the Great Devourer over that distance (which isn't true, as we've always known it was visible, in some limited, tiny way at least)... a random artefact is? This artefact is several hundred times brighter and more powerful than the Astronomican? It can reach that much farther? There's just no way that's true, and even less way it makes sense.

The Astronomican is one of the pillars of the setting's themes and history, and has always been the reason the Great Devourer is coming into the galaxy. That's always going to be thematic and compelling and appropriate to me than the alternative, especially when the alternative will need to be several bajillion times brighter and more powerful than the ultimate expression of the Emperor's power in order to make sense in your example above.

Why not? We know that it's a) a Necron artifact of some sort (or an Old one, but given the 'greenish light' stuff it's probably Necron imo) and b ) it would make some sense as in the Of Mars trilogy the Old Ones are hinted at being universal rather than galactic. Since we also know that the C'Tan largely influenced most Necrontyr tech, how could the Necrontyr stand up to a universal civilization without having some measure of tech that reaches outside the galactic reaches?

I mean, don't get me wrong, the Big E is the Big Daddy ... in 40k. Whatever powers the Old Ones unleashed in their fight with the C'Tan quite honestly dwarfs anything we've ever seen in 40k, 30k, or DAoT.

Necrons are hax man.

And tbh it doesn't make much sense for the Astronomican, which can't even be seen from the farther fringes of Imperial Space, to be extragalactic - at least, not to the degree that it'd attract all of our favorite om noming space bugs.

But it does make sense. and it has, for years. We don't know how the Great Devourer saw the Astronomican, only that they were drawn to it. Its relative brightness might be meaningless. Either way, the core point here is simple, but twofold:

1. You can't argue the Astronomican isn't "bright" enough when something significantly less powerful would be even less "bright" - the Astronomican barely reaching the edge of the galaxy is one thing, but the scale of distance between galaxies is far, far, far, far, far, far, far in excess of anything that an artefact being on the other side of the galaxy will make any difference to. When someone is saying "The Pharos is bright enough because it's a bit closer to the edge of the galaxy" that's about 0.000000000001% closer to the next galaxy in actual distance and relative terms. It's meaningless. Which then means the Pharos must be an almost infinite amount of times stronger/brighter/more resonant than the Astronomican - which is thematically weak for all the above reasons, as well as:

2. The Emperor and the Astronomican aren't just "big deals... in 40K." The Emperor and the Astronomican are failing in 40K, and the latter is sustained by a decaying process that involves the murder of thousands of psykers a month. In 30K, the Astronomican is far brighter and the Emperor is at the height of his powers.

Here's what this comes down to. It's fair to argue that something's preferable, but... no. It doesn't make more sense, it flies in the face of some great lore, and it's definitely thematically weaker. An artefact no one has heard of before that does nothing before or after this moment is what really draws the tyranids to the galaxy, rather than the fundamental psychic force that makes the Imperium possible. I like that people dig it, and I knew they would, but it's not going to convince me that it's a better idea than what we've had for 20+ years. It certainly doesn't make immediately more sense, beyond "...well, it's 1,000,000 times more powerful than the Astronomican...?" which, well, you'd think would have a significant effect on the actual galaxy it's in, for a start. And why does the Emperor care about the Astronomican when these things are laying around his territory? But the other myriad problems with the idea could take even longer to spill out, so I'll leave that there.

This is the last I'll say on it, as it's a minor point and one that doesn't need to clutter up the thread.

Just because you can change something, doesn't mean you should. It doesn't mean it'll make as much sense, or that it'll be better. I can change almost anything in 40K lore and make it make some kind of sense in another way, to subvert yet another trope. But with great power in the lore comes great responsibility.

[Kelborn]

Are such subjets like the pharos and the nids discussed in a, let's say, "fluff meeting" including GW/ BL and at least some authors? Or has every author the permission to write as he wants to?

 

 

If we have a look on the Star Wars EU for example, we do find many contradictions. And we know how that ended. I would have assumed that there is a council or at least one person in charge of the fluff.

[Felix Antipodes]

It could be argued that it wasn't the light of the Astronomican that attracted the Nids but the psychic energy of its creation and/or maintenance that drew them on. could it be that they produce a psychic null as they approach is because they feed on psychic energy as much as they do on physical matter? The destruction of the Pharos would then just be a coincidence. Unless they capture a talking Nid though we will never know for sure

[Mellow]

The Novel clearly states that it's the Pharos flaring that attracts the Great Devourer. That doesn't mean it's less or more powerful than the Astronomicon. Only that it's different. It clearly is different, it's a method of interstellar teleportation and communication. The Astronomicon is just a fancy lighthouse, we can only presume that The Emperor initially had no knowledge of these devices in the Milky Way, otherwise he may have tried to mimic or backward engineer them.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I think that you can't use the Astronomicon as an extra-galactic lure for the nids and say that it's light wanes at the furthest reaches of our galaxy making the outer reaches a hard-to-get-to-place. One or the other has to be true The one time ping of the Sothan device going bang serves as an awakening for the great devouring - A flashing light in a darkened pond - that prompts them to come see what tasty treats this galaxy has for them. Once they get nearer they head for Terra due to the Emperor's Light. It works for me.

If it was inconsequential then why bother adding that part in about the Great Devourer If they were going to be attracted by the Astronomican anyways?

The way I see it, unless they were already on track to the galaxy anyway, the astronomicon alone wouldn't have gotten their attention. It's documented numerous times that by the eastern fringe the astronomicon is already so dim as to be near invisible. I highly doubt it would be seen by something 10000 years travel away.

This way makes sense. It explains why the initial fleet beelines to Ultramar, makes it far enough inward to now sense the astronomicon,and suddenly all further fleets are on a direct route to Terra.

That's why it doesn't make sense, though. Or, rather, why the sense it makes is temporary and weak. Look at the scale between galaxies. The unimaginably vast distances. If the Astronomican isn't even remotely visible or possibly sensed by the Great Devourer over that distance (which isn't true, as we've always known it was visible, in some limited, tiny way at least)... a random artefact is? This artefact is several hundred times brighter and more powerful than the Astronomican? It can reach that much farther? There's just no way that's true, and even less way it makes sense.

The Astronomican is one of the pillars of the setting's themes and history, and has always been the reason the Great Devourer is coming into the galaxy. That's always going to be thematic and compelling and appropriate to me than the alternative, especially when the alternative will need to be several bajillion times brighter and more powerful than the ultimate expression of the Emperor's power in order to make sense in your example above.

Why not? We know that it's a) a Necron artifact of some sort (or an Old one, but given the 'greenish light' stuff it's probably Necron imo) and b ) it would make some sense as in the Of Mars trilogy the Old Ones are hinted at being universal rather than galactic. Since we also know that the C'Tan largely influenced most Necrontyr tech, how could the Necrontyr stand up to a universal civilization without having some measure of tech that reaches outside the galactic reaches?

I mean, don't get me wrong, the Big E is the Big Daddy ... in 40k. Whatever powers the Old Ones unleashed in their fight with the C'Tan quite honestly dwarfs anything we've ever seen in 40k, 30k, or DAoT.

Necrons are hax man.

And tbh it doesn't make much sense for the Astronomican, which can't even be seen from the farther fringes of Imperial Space, to be extragalactic - at least, not to the degree that it'd attract all of our favorite om noming space bugs.

But it does make sense. and it has, for years. We don't know how the Great Devourer saw the Astronomican, only that they were drawn to it. Its relative brightness might be meaningless. Either way, the core point here is simple, but twofold:

1. You can't argue the Astronomican isn't "bright" enough when something significantly less powerful would be even less "bright" - the Astronomican barely reaching the edge of the galaxy is one thing, but the scale of distance between galaxies is far, far, far, far, far, far, far in excess of anything that an artefact being on the other side of the galaxy will make any difference to. When someone is saying "The Pharos is bright enough because it's a bit closer to the edge of the galaxy" that's about 0.000000000001% closer to the next galaxy in actual distance and relative terms. It's meaningless. Which then means the Pharos must be an almost infinite amount of times stronger/brighter/more resonant than the Astronomican - which is thematically weak for all the above reasons, as well as:

2. The Emperor and the Astronomican aren't just "big deals... in 40K." The Emperor and the Astronomican are failing in 40K, and the latter is sustained by a decaying process that involves the murder of thousands of psykers a month. In 30K, the Astronomican is far brighter and the Emperor is at the height of his powers.

Here's what this comes down to. It's fair to argue that something's preferable, but... no. It doesn't make more sense, it flies in the face of some great lore, and it's definitely thematically weaker. An artefact no one has heard of before that does nothing before or after this moment is what really draws the tyranids to the galaxy, rather than the fundamental psychic force that makes the Imperium possible. I like that people dig it, and I knew they would, but it's not going to convince me that it's a better idea than what we've had for 20+ years. It certainly doesn't make immediately more sense, beyond "...well, it's 1,000,000 times more powerful than the Astronomican...?" which, well, you'd think would have a significant effect on the actual galaxy it's in, for a start. And why does the Emperor care about the Astronomican when these things are laying around his territory? But the other myriad problems with the idea could take even longer to spill out, so I'll leave that there.

This is the last I'll say on it, as it's a minor point and one that doesn't need to clutter up the thread.

Just because you can change something, doesn't mean you should. It doesn't mean it'll make as much sense, or that it'll be better. I can change almost anything in 40K lore and make it make some kind of sense in another way, to subvert yet another trope. But with great power in the lore comes great responsibility.

...I never said anything about the Pharos being at one end of the galaxy or another? My point isn't the distance - that's largely irrelevant. My point revolves around the lore of who it originally belonged to, not how far it is. Given that part of the theme really is that what we have now is the leftovers (to put it mildly) of several once immense civilizations that probably spanned galaxies and not just one, it's like mankind playing with things that were never meant to be played with. Besides - the Pharos beacon wasn't even that bright per se, it was that bright in a single moment of time when it got dialed up to 20 and broke. That's ultimately what it comes down to; we're using things we're not really supposed to, get into sticky situations, and screw ourselves over 10k years in the future. That's pretty grimdark, IMO. To add the Astronomican on top of that to keep the 'Free Food Here' sign up fits perfectly with the fatalistic future of 40k. And it largely addresses the issue of if these things are laying about, why doesn't the Big E use them; same reason why he didn't keep copies of all STCs ever and bring humanity back to DAoT levels within the span of a few years. Because he knows that using these things brings unforeseen and often horrendous consequences. In that sense, the Astronomican is a necessary evil of sorts.

Heck, there's nothing even stopping us from speculating whether the Emperor knew of these beacons beforehand and based the Astronomican on them. After all, he's been chilling since what, M8 BC? Maybe he had some inkling of extra galactic terrors, knew that activating these beacons drew them as they operate more on a physical basis, and decided to make a beacon powered by him that was largely psychic in nature rather than physical, so that these things that are far enough out won't see the Astronomican, despite the prodigious psychic might of the Hive Mind. I don't even necessarily think this is true, I'm just throwing that out there as a possible explanation, of which there are several.

And point two doesn't really refute what I said at all? They're big deals in 40k. That's it. 40k takes place in the same 'galaxy' as our own brittle little reality does, i.e. primarily in the Milky Way, which is the setting for 40k. I mean, let's be real here - the Emperor could finally actually die, the Webway gates under Terra are smashed open by the daemon armies waiting there, and the Imperium falls. Milky Way is screwed 'cause Eye expands, everyone's boned. How does that affect anyone else outside of the 40k setting? Someone chilling in Andromeda or even LMC with their empire(s) doesn't care, because they have their own AndromedaHammer 40,000 or LMCHammer 40,000 going on there. Unless the intent behind the lore of 40k is that Milky Way is the only galaxy of import because everywhere else it's wreckage of stuff and no hope (which would be weird, as one of the Magellanic Clouds was scouted by the Ultramarines and they got rekt in 30k, as per Tempest) it doesn't make much sense that what happens in the Milky Way affects everything everywhere.

Regarding the Astronomican's strength; even in 30k, a large enough warpstorm like the Ruinstorm can blot out the 30k beacon, so the point boils down to whether you thought that the Astronomican flared for a few hundred years at the beginning of M30ish and that's what brought the Tyranids here or whether they were lurking right outside the Milky Way (for some weird reason, even though they're extra galactic they...ate everything and were just chilling outside the milky way waiting for ... the buffet to open?) and are heavily warp attuned (yet don't use Warp travel, for whatever odd reason). Either that or the Astronomican is so strong that it can be seen by a psychic mind (but not one that uses Warp travel - again, weirdness ensues, because AFAIK normal psykers don't really sense the Astronomican, it's useful for Navigators in Warp transit and that's it) from really, really far away. I don't see how any of those makes more sense than what happened with the Pharos beacon.

It's not as simple as 'it was the astronomican' because you have to have a lot of things to right - or wrong - to actually make it feasible. To me, and maybe this was different when the BL authors/loremasters were discussing it, there was a great physical event - the pharos beacon breaking - and that's what piqued their interest. Once the Hive Mind got closer, and was able to discern the existence of this cute little light of some dude in a galactic arm it said 'boy, this looks promising so let's go eat it'. And then for whatever hilarious reason the Nids overshot Terra and instead hit the Eastern Fringe, which ironically is more or less exactly where the Pharos beacon was.

The astronomican can still draw the Nids in a greater sense, but (likewise) you're not going to convince me that something that largely operates through the Warp and not actually via a physical light attracted a giant swarm of planet-eating bugs that don't actually use Warp travel. That's probably the biggest hole in the whole 'astronomican is pulling them' theory/plot line- the astronomican's purpose is to guide ships in warp travel. That's it. Tyranids use narvhals, weird gravity hacks. Granted , they do have some form of interaction with the Warp, via the Shadow, but as their primary means of detection? Don't see it, there's too much non-Warp aspects of their travel to make me believe that.

It's an interesting aside to the story itself, but sure, we can drop it or take it to another area to discuss this further. Again, I'm speaking from the end-customer POV, who enjoyed it greatly, and there's a high likelihood of a lot of things being said in the meetings that decided this that probably fly in the face of what I think.

[Loesh]

I think you're understating the Shadow in the Warp quite a bit, the Tyranids have a massive hive mind that seethes with warp power...I don't think a physical light would attract them nearly as much as the massive mind boiling psychic light of the Astronomican. There's no reason why it wouldn't attract them.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I think you're understating the Shadow in the Warp quite a bit, the Tyranids have a massive hive mind that seethes with warp power...I don't think a physical light would attract them nearly as much as the massive mind boiling psychic light of the Astronomican. There's no reason why it wouldn't attract them.

I already addressed that;

 

 

Regarding the Astronomican's strength; even in 30k, a large enough warpstorm like the Ruinstorm can blot out the 30k beacon, so the point boils down to whether you thought that the Astronomican flared for a few hundred years at the beginning of M30ish and that's what brought the Tyranids here or whether they were lurking right outside the Milky Way (for some weird reason, even though they're extra galactic they...ate everything and were just chilling outside the milky way waiting for ... the buffet to open?) and are heavily warp attuned (yet don't use Warp travel, for whatever odd reason). Either that or the Astronomican is so strong that it can be seen by a psychic mind (but not one that uses Warp travel - again, weirdness ensues, because AFAIK normal psykers don't really sense the Astronomican, it's useful for Navigators in Warp transit and that's it) from really, really far away. I don't see how any of those makes more sense than what happened with the Pharos beacon.

The psychic reach of his might is translated into 50k (or so, that's what the Lex says, but regardless, the reach is around the same as the radius of the Milky Way, which is 50k-60k LY or so). In other words, you cannot see the Astronomican when you are too far away from it, no matter how powerful a psyker/psychic being you might be. So then, the assumption becomes that the 'Nids were alwyas within 60k LY or so of the Milky Way and were just chilling (again, for whatever odd reason) waiting for ... something. Even though a turbulent event like the entire Eldar Race going into full orgy mode and birthing an actual Chaos God from their debauchery didn't do attract the Tyranids at all. I think that's pretty far-fetched.

 

Regardless - the Astronomican is useful in really only one aspect; warp travel. The Hive Mind, if it was indeed 'seething with warp power', wouldn't need to use Narvhals as their only method of FTL travel. It could just teleport them to whatever destination they needed to get to by brute force opening warp rifts. We know that it has an immense psychic presence - this much is true. However, there's no solid evidence pointing to it being anything that much different at all than what the Ork Gestalt is - a psychic imprint of an entire non-blank race. There maybe something behind it, controlling it, but there is zero evidence that it is an actual psyker-like being, because as I said, it'd just be able to teleport its fleets around if it were the case. 

 

In fact, I would say that the fact that the Shadow only becomes evident when a Hive Fleet nears its target system points to the fact that the Shadow is symptomatic; i.e. anything that would control that many organisms would undoubtedly have some measure of imprint in the Warp, on account of having billions and billions of organisms that aren't psychic blanks under its command.

[Loesh]

The Eye of Terror was an explosion, not a consistent light in the warp though. Also it's not after the Astronmicon specifically, it's using the light as an indicator of 'Hey, there's food here.' and that's why it's homing in. Besides, we also know that Zoanthropes exist to harness and hurl psychic energy, and in a much more controlled way then any Weirdboy so I think it's safe to assume it's a psychic being, one that's even capable of devouring souls.

 

Pharos is also just a lantern, where the Astronimcon is a lighthouse, of course the Tyranids would go after that even if it's as comparatively dim as you say. Unless dialing it up somehow made it brighter then the Astronmicon(I highly, HIGHLY doubt it.)

[Apothecary Vaddon]

The Eye of Terror was an explosion, not a consistent light in the warp though. Also it's not after the Astronmicon specifically, it's using the light as an indicator of 'Hey, there's food here.' and that's why it's homing in. Besides, we also know that Zoanthropes exist to harness and hurl psychic energy, and in a much more controlled way then any Weirdboy so I think it's safe to assume it's a psychic being, one that's even capable of devouring souls.

 

Pharos is also just a lantern, where the Astronimcon is a lighthouse, of course the Tyranids would go after that even if it's as comparatively dim as you say. Unless dialing it up somehow made it brighter then the Astronmicon(I highly, HIGHLY doubt it.)

Regardless - the birth of a Chaos god would still be a far, far larger event than the Emperor's psychic will manifested. Whether it was an explosion or a consistent light is largely irrelevant, because it'd still be visible for a length of time that would be very, very enticing - certainly more than something that could or could not indicate life. 

 

The fact that a unit in the Tyranid's arsenal can use psychic powers is not much evidence in and of itself - again, if the Hive Mind was an actually powerful Warp being, and not a being that happens to also have a large psychic imprint, we'd see a lot more Warp-based powers/abilities than just the Shadow and the odd Zoanthrope here and there. There would be no need for Narvhals, just open rifts to system X, toss a hive fleet through, and see what happens.

 

Lastly - my point isn't that the Astronomican is comparatively dim. My point is that in order to require that to be the sole reason for the Nids to arrive, it would have to be extremely bright. This is not corroborated by the fact that the astronimcan itself is not visible within the galaxy it's in. If that's the case, then the Tyranids would have had to be hilariously close to the MW to begin with (again, they'd have to be as far from Sol as the edges of the galaxy are, so something like 1/3rd of the distance between MW and LMC), so much so that it's astounding that out of all the alien/human empires that rose and fell in the MW, none of them found this huge mass of tyranids blocking out light from distant galaxies to be odd at all. 

 

I should also say that I don't believe that the Astronomican has no part in bringing the Nids here; quite the contrary. Once the Hive Mind was sufficiently close enough to the MW it latched on to the Astronomican and that is the reason why the Tyranids keep coming here. But why did they choose our galaxy to begin with? Because of the Pharos beacon.

[helterskelter]

I'm not sure I understand the argument. One woke them up and gave them something to point at, the other made sure they kept going in the right direction. Even the when did the astronomicon kick off? All of a few years later?

Real world analogy, do you wake up as soon as it's light in the morning or do you wake up when something makes noise loudly and flashes at you? (Need to pee non withstanding)

[Prot]

I think it's an apples and Oranges argument. Two totally different mechanisms used for similar goals. But to be honest I really think we are doing the novel a disservice by just discussing this minor element of the storyline

 

With that being said SPOILERS AHEAD

 

I loved the book but really didn't care for Guilliman's portrayal in it. He comes off as contrived, lacking in self confidence and apparently gets very little respect for his accomplishments from his brothers.

 

The author apparently loved Curze. He did a great job portraying the tortured soul you wanted to feel sorry for but he stunk too much to make you really care.

 

I truly don't understand why (with his alleged precognitive ability) Sanguinius did not kill the wretch.

 

I felt good about the Dark Angels role however I do think the Lion is coming off Asa a colossal jerk face in every step of this arch from not telling anyone about Curze to getting Guilliman to understaff the one guiding light in the Imperium. Who's side is this guy on?

 

The Nightlords are such a strange animal to me. Even the primarch treats them like armpits. It's amazing how incredibly self destructive they are even at this point in the story.

 

The real stars to me are the Warsmith and the Imperial Fist. I thought it lacked a real characterful Ultramarine but I might be spoiled by Abnett. Even Guilliman seemed to be a bit goofy either exhibiting temper tantrums or giving out medals. The scouts were probably the Ultra highlight.

 

I really couldn't put the book down though and recommended it to a few friends that jumped ship after the Vulkan stuff. (Also highly recommended The Purge as well). I hope they give it a shot.

 

I was all over the book until the end. It just seemed a touch of a let down and could have had the same conclusion if they would have just bombed the mountain in the opening attacks.

[caladancid]

Just wanted to add a couple things that I said a little in the other thread (in the HH forums).

 

I really liked the Pharos having some connection to the Tyranids. In this thread, as in the other, tons of people seem to be up in arms about it. The change doesn't seem huge to me, especially as the Pharos being involved doesn't mean that the Astronomicon wasn't. It emphasized the hugeness of the universe to me (and the crazy amount of time involved, i.e. it takes the Tyranids longer to get here than the time span of the entire Age of Strife).

 

BUT, my favorite part by far, is the internal monologue that Mericus has regarding the Astartes and their inherent inhumanity. "Of course they can be brutal, they conquered everything in 200 years." Loved it.

[HeritorA]

Mericus, Kellendvar, Skraivok and Sanguinius totally dominate this novel . 9 of 10 - great novel, long missed the novel of this quality in the HH series

[Mantras]

Anyone figure out why the book is called 34 on the BL website yet there is no 33?

[MasterofMankind]

I expect 33 will hit the shelves before Pharos is released on either paperback or hardcover.

[veterannoob]

Anyone figure out why the book is called 34 on the BL website yet there is no 33?

BL has been great about Facebook communication. They said yesterday 33 will come soon but (34) Pharos was ready by December so they put it up sooner. Hey, cool. Even updated the HH reading order with 3 latest releases.