The Frag Cannon, Blood Angels dedicated weapon ?

[Frater Antodeniel]

Hello, brothers of the blood,

 

It isn't the first time i took on the road to preach about both our present and future. And this topic will be dedicated to a unique weapon in the Spaces Marines armoury, only found, to this day, in the Blood Angels Armoury, the Frag-Cannon.

 

Since we got a special tactical squad (A good looking one for my own appreciation), something have shock me, why didn't we got a portable Frag-Cannon instead of the Heavy Flammer ?

 

A Heavy Flammers still make sense since it is an assault (heavy) weapon, but wouldn't it be more accurate to have this for Salamanders ?

 

When compared, "assault 1 F5/PA4" and "assault 2 F6/PA- Rending" things are quite equitable, so why ? GW lacks of vision on the Blood Angels range ? Maybe....(Saddest is the fact that the Grey Knight have a Psy-Cannon whose looking could have been the basis of our Frag-Cannon...)

 

So, in the end of this presentation, Here is the Bone to work on :

 

What's your judgement on the Frag-Cannon ? (Would you exchange the Heavy Flammer for the Frag-Cannon ?....etc)

 

(Edit : We could imagine that for game balance, a portable Frag-Cannon, could become assault 1...etc.)

[Brother_Mike]

Well sure, I think all of us would exchange a man portable heavy flamer for a man portable frag cannon. The thing about it, is as it's currently represented on the Furioso (or Fragioso in this case) is pretty big with a sizable ammunition belt on the side.

 

So while I can't see anyone in power armor carrying it around, I think you could make a pretty good case for a Blood Angel in TDA carrying around, much like the heavy flamer and assault cannon.

[Charlo]

I agree with TDA for sure.

[Omega-soul]

Even more -i think BA shouldhave all  the range -

frag-pistol s3 ap- rending

frag-gun s5 ap-rending

 

And this particular weapon could resolve devastator problem for BA.

Assault heavy weapon that could be used with drop-pods.

 

Grey knight already have their purgation squad with four s6ap4 icinerators for unit  - i think it's a  good pattern to follow

[Spagunk]

Frag cannons sound like perfect Assault Centurian weapons.

[appiah4]

How about a Frag Cannon variant on the Baal Predator?

[Spagunk]

How about a Frag Cannon variant on the Baal Predator?

Well we already have a flamestorm cannon on a baal but side sponson frag cannons in lieu of heavy flamers would be interesting.

[appiah4]

 

How about a Frag Cannon variant on the Baal Predator?

Well we already have a flamestorm cannon on a baal but side sponson frag cannons in lieu of heavy flamers would be interesting.

 

 

Yeah but a Frag Cannon on a Baal is actually a more interesting loadout than a Flamestorm Cannon Baal..

[Charlo]

Frag cannons sound like perfect Assault Centurian weapons.

Oh now that is beautiful.

[CaptainHelion]

A man-portable Frag Cannon would make a pretty awesome Heavy Flamer counts-as, actually.

[Spagunk]

 

 

How about a Frag Cannon variant on the Baal Predator?

Well we already have a flamestorm cannon on a baal but side sponson frag cannons in lieu of heavy flamers would be interesting.

 

 

Yeah but a Frag Cannon on a Baal is actually a more interesting loadout than a Flamestorm Cannon Baal..

 

 I'd prefer the AP3 to the AP- of the frag cannon truthfully.

[RedemptionNL]

The Frag Cannon is better against any target except those with a 3+ save though (and just plain better than a Heavy Flamer).

 

But alas, with the BA Tactical Squad and Baal Predator being fairly recent kits, I wouldn't count om them getting a frag cannon anytime soon.

[LutherMax]

Possibly something we'll see when the next Codex comes around...

[Xenith]

 

 

How about a Frag Cannon variant on the Baal Predator?

Well we already have a flamestorm cannon on a baal but side sponson frag cannons in lieu of heavy flamers would be interesting.

 

 

Yeah but a Frag Cannon on a Baal is actually a more interesting loadout than a Flamestorm Cannon Baal..

 

 

I dont see it. The flamestorm is superior to the frag in every way.

 

Vs hordes: Heavy flamer > frag cannon due to denying saves

vs MEQ: Flamestorm > frag cannon due to denying saves

 

I'll admit that vs + saves and vehicles, the frag is better.

 

The frag cannon is good on the dread as it cannot take a flamestorm.

 

[Spagunk]

The Frag Cannon is better against any target except those with a 3+ save though (and just plain better than a Heavy Flamer).

 

 

Yeah, my current meta is MEQ heavy so it's a bias I have to endure.

[RedemptionNL]

I think you forget a frag cannon has two shots.

 

Average amount of unsaved wounds of Flamestorm vs Frag Cannon vs Heavy Flamer per hit:

 

T4 2+ - 0.14 vs 0.56 vs 0.11

T4 3+ - 0.83 vs 0.78 vs 0.22

T4 4+ - 0.83 vs 1.00 vs 0.67

T4 5+ - 0.83 vs 1.22 vs 0.67

T4 6+ - 0.83 vs 1.44 vs 0.67

T4 -- - 0.83 vs 1.67 vs 0.67

 

So the frag cannon is statistically better against everything except a flamestorm against something with a 3+ save, where it's only marginally worse.

[Spagunk]

No, I did not forget the two shots.

 

My meta is MEQ heavy so my opinion is that I prefer the flamestorm to the frag cannon.

[RedemptionNL]

Ah, that was meant for Xenith, I forgot to quote.

[Xenith]

I think you forget a frag cannon has two shots.

 

Average amount of unsaved wounds of Flamestorm vs Frag Cannon vs Heavy Flamer per hit:

 

T4 2+ - 0.14 vs 0.56 vs 0.11

T4 3+ - 0.83 vs 0.78 vs 0.22

T4 4+ - 0.83 vs 1.00 vs 0.67

T4 5+ - 0.83 vs 1.22 vs 0.67

T4 6+ - 0.83 vs 1.44 vs 0.67

T4 -- - 0.83 vs 1.67 vs 0.67

 

So the frag cannon is statistically better against everything except a flamestorm against something with a 3+ save, where it's only marginally worse.

 

Your math is wrong, unfortunately - you can't get a probability above one in this example.

 

According to your numbers, every T4 4+ save model beneath a frag cannon template dies. This is simply not true

 

1/6 (2/12) is a failed wound, 4/6 x 1/2 (4/12) is a wound and passed armour save (= 6/12 are failures)

 

You do not then simply add this to another for the second shot.

 

A 50 % chance to kill a model does not turn into a 100 % chance with two shots. It's more like 75 %.

 

Which is, admittedly, still better than the heavy flamer, but not by the massive margin you are suggesting.

 

 

 

Also, this is only for T4 models.

 

Change that to T3, 4+ save, and the flamer outperforms the frag.

 

Heavy flamer:

5/6 chance to wound and kill (120/144)

 

Frag Cannon

108/144

 

based on 4/6 to wound 1/2 to save (=4/12) + 1/6 to rend = chance for first shot to kill = 6/12 = 72/144

 

chance survives first shot, then killed by the second = 6/12 * 6/12 = 36/144

 

So, the chance that the model is killed by either the first shot, or survives only to be killed by the second is 72/144 + 36/144 = 108/144

[RedemptionNL]

 

Your math is wrong, unfortunately - you can't get a probability above one in this example.

 

 

According to your numbers, every T4 4+ save model beneath a frag cannon template dies. This is simply not true

 

1/6 (2/12) is a failed wound, 4/6 x 1/2 (4/12) is a wound and passed armour save (= 6/12 are failures)

 

You do not then simply add this to another for the second shot.

 

A 50 % chance to kill a model does not turn into a 100 % chance with two shots. It's more like 75 %.

 

Which is, admittedly, still better than the heavy flamer, but not by the massive margin you are suggesting.

You're confusing probability and averages. 1 unsaved wound on average is indeed not the same as a 100% kill rate, of course, but that is no flaw in my math.

 

If you want to split it out into probability instead of averages, for each hit against a T4 4+ target, it has a 25% chance to do no unsaved wound, 50% chance to do 1 unsaved wound and a 25% chance to do 2 unsaved wounds.

 

That neatly averages to 1 unsaved wound per hit. So yeah, while that does mean you have a 75% to kill something, you have a 25% chance to kill two models. Which of course, also has a chance to do overkill wounds which go to waste.

 

Also, this is only for T4 models.

 

Change that to T3, 4+ save, and the flamer outperforms the frag.

 

Heavy flamer:

5/6 chance to wound and kill (120/144)

 

Frag Cannon

108/144

 

based on 4/6 to wound 1/2 to save (=4/12) + 1/6 to rend = chance for first shot to kill = 6/12 = 72/144

 

chance survives first shot, then killed by the second = 6/12 * 6/12 = 36/144

 

So, the chance that the model is killed by either the first shot, or survives only to be killed by the second is 72/144 + 36/144 = 108/144

Yes, but again, the frag cannon has a chance to do a second wound for each hit. So the average number of unsaved wounds against a T3 4+ target for a frag cannon is still 1 unsaved wound, while the average for the heavy flamer rises to 0.83 unsaved wounds. The frag cannon is still better.

[Xenith]

What unit is T3, 4+, multi wound?

 

I havent come across it yet and need to prepare.

 

I mainly use mine for killing pathfinders.

[RedemptionNL]

It doesn't need to multiwound - it just has the possibility to kill 2 models for each hit.

 

Say you can put your template over 5 models from a 10 model squad of T3 W1 4+ models, the frag cannon will on average kill 5 models, while the heavy flamer will kill 4.16 models. Hence the frag cannon is better.

[Frater Antodeniel]

Remember, to compare Heavy Flammers with a possible portable Frag-Cannon, we should better use the same number of shoot attack, so 1.

 

Furthermore, i better imagine a Heavy Frag-Cannon on Furioso Dreadnought (2 attacks ) and a Lighter Portable Frag-Cannon on Tactical/(assault)/(Devastator) Squad (1 attack).

 

To add, from my point of view, the Frag-Cannon is more akin to a 40k Heavy ShotGun (Angel with a shotgun.... =) ).

 

And finally, Frag-Weapons are more Blood Angels than Flammers, since Frag....make our ennemis Bleed =).

 

Frager F4/PA5 (Assault1) = Flammer F4/P5 (A1)

Heavy Frager F5/PA6 Rending (A1) = Heavy Flammer F5/PA4 (A1)

Frag-Cannon F6/PA- Rending (A2) = Flammestorm Cannon F6/PA3 (A1)

 

The Frag-idea devlopment concept in three line.

 

And, Remember that one day, maybe, we could have our Devastator Squad or an Extended Blood Angels upgrade, so the door for Frag-Weapons could still be opened.

[Quixus]

 

Frag cannons sound like perfect Assault Centurian weapons.

Oh now that is beautiful hideous but effective.

 

FTFY, SCNR ;)

 

A man-portable Frag Cannon would make a pretty awesome Heavy Flamer counts-as, actually.

Yup. I never understood why Devastators (BA or otherwise) don't get heavy Flamers. Burnaboyz get do do that as well.

[evildrcheese]

Re: Flamestoem Baal, torrent on the FS and HF would solve some of it's problems.

 

Re: Frag devs. That'd be super cool.

 

Re: Heavy Flamer Devs, battle sisters have the equivalent, they're awesome in a taxi drop pod.

 

D