Black Book - Insurrection (PUBLISHED)

[MikhalLeNoir]

Makes sense in a way but I have another Idea. What if Koschei suffers from his pariahness and the lonliness which comes with it ( yeah I still like to have him pariah in this version cuz 4 pariahs is more in balanve than 3....I like balance^^.

 

Okay on to my idea. Koschei suffers from the lonelyness which a pariah is confronted with. ( every pariah handles it differently: kawils jates most others, jade is not affected by human emotion and is fascinated of his aura on others, gwal can make bonds but always needs his masks in order to surpress his powers and koschei could fill the plot of the one wjo wants to get rid of his powers. I know that this means a bit of remaster his story) and seeks a cure for his "defect" maybe and the jade general provides a genetic therapy. Koschei willingly tests it and dies. He is brought back to life. Thx to the jade, kozja or a dark miracle, we never know ( nit until we publish a full fledged novel on the topic. THAT opens the gates for nurgle. Only after that incedent the voices begins. He is afraid to turn insane. At first he pushes the whisper back but after a time he talks to the voice.He wants to be free and ultimately enslaves himself. The therapy is used on his legion ( some won't so we have later in all the zombiness still an elite cadre who won't "fall". Would add another layer to the figure. [And to be honest it works imho better as a coincedence that there is a tribe of warp supressants on earth and oh my god the primarch of the legion they become is a warp supressant too with exactly these thraits.] forget that last part.

 

I know it thraits in gw original stuff is delivered by genetics and not by education and the culture the primarch is coming from. But that always nags on me. Same thing would be a legion recruits mainly from antartica and surprsie surprise their primarch landed on an ice world....

 

Sorry if i sound harsh. It is not. I honestly offer my concerns.and my nit flawless english stands in the way.

[simison]

The idea that Jade, genius scientist he is, is able to 'cure' a Pariah rubs me the wrong way.

 

Jade isn't able to create artificial Pariah marines, let alone cure them. Although it is his goal, I'm not sure he'll ever achieve it.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Is he able to cure it? I had in mind that Koschei dies. And who is god if life and dead? A green ugly guy who is in love with an eldar goddess (yuk!!! Xenos lover) so would a dead body be still able to be a pariah? So if the dead body is reanimated by nurgle could the pariah gene be d deactivated in the death status by nurgle? And would that work on koscheis marines too?

 

Jade as the brilliant scientist thought he is able to cure it (hybris) but he actually opened the gates for nurgle.

 

Just an idea to show that we can make something plausiblel and build a great scheme around it.

[bluntblade]

Jade wouldn't want to cure a pariah either, if I remember his fluff correctly you.

[MikhalLeNoir]

Jade wants to create pariah, yes. But he is a scientists and the challenge to cure one could be enough. Just imagine if he thinks he was sucessful and injects some of Koschei s blood/ or the soncalled remedy into a pariah xenos lifeforms as some type of medicin and nothing happens^^ or the testobjects degenerates and rots away.

 

 

But it was just an idea to keep the old plan and balance. By the way it could also be kozja wo tries to help his brother koschei.

[Doctor Perils]

Plus, if research into a sickness can bring answers for a remedy, research into a remedy can also bring answers for the "sickness" itself.

 

I like this idea, it's a good explanation for Nurgle being able to touch Koschei, in a character-driven way.

[MikhalLeNoir]

At least my idea was not totally nuts^^

[simison]

Even with those explanations, it feels like it's just jumping through too many hoops to maintain the 'balance'. There are, at least, two other problems with this scenario. One, I don't see anyone persuading the Jade General to take a step into undoing his work for a potential breakthrough. Two, the sheer amount of warp energy to be directed at a Pariah to reverse their nature isn't available because if Koschei dies, how can Nurgle work his magic when the corpse is surrounded by an army of Pariahs, plus Jade. Even if Nurgle could overwhelm the Pariah barrier, how can he invest so much power without revealing himself to the Imperium?  

[MikhalLeNoir]

Well the hoops can be worked around or it is simply a matter oft the right perspective.

 

For Jades Motivation: it is not an undoing oft bis work but using bis knowledge to usw in a different Problem oft the same nature. Just how you work in a scientific context.

 

Why would there be a lot oft warp emergy needed to reverse the nature oft a pariah? The pariah gene don't need warp energy to Funktion. It is a gene. So althering the genetic code of a beeing to remder it useless shouldn't be that of a Problem if a god is involved. In reality a bit of sunlight is enough to let a cell mutate and render it useless vor other radiation.

 

For the army of pariahs: first question I want to ask a sidenote: how Were the Chaos gods able to capture the pariahs gestation pods?

 

Then: AS a scientist who wants to research the creation oft a pariah; Jade has to keep sure; that the research environment are not tainted by nything or influenced by elements which can alter thge research data. So it you are playing around with the idea to create vor cure pariahs you shouldn't have Strom pariahs sitting nearby who influence the whole process.

 

And we still habe the Wildcard oft kozja who is no pariah and tryiing to cure bis brother could also be a step forward to create human 9.0 and could be a joint venture oft both and may take place on kozjas domain which totally worlks around the whole pariah army blocking everything thing. What is mneeded is just a spark in a dead body.

 

Let there be light. I like such discussions. Makes me creative^^. But all those talks is nuts it I don't grt Mr. Squig in my side^^

[simison]

I have enough time to address two points before my shift starts.

 

One, Chaos, while not able to see the Pariahmarchs in their pods, can still see the pods. As infants, the Pariah aura is weak and small. So, Chaos, although unable to affect the child directly, can still grab the area around the pod. So, instead of just a pod, the Pariah pods will also have the ceiling and the floor the pods were attached to. That's how they can have the Pariahmarchs taken through the Warp without breaking the Pariah rule.

 

Two, as Hesh's piece pointed out, there really isn't a Pariah gene, which is why Jade will never be able to create Pariah marines if he comes from a purely scientific perspective. Like psykers, the Pariah nature is connected to an individual's ethereal nature, not his biological one. The Emperor is able to create Pariahs because he is able to use his vast power to manipulate an individual's 'ethereal' rating (with Pariah representing the negative on a scale, a normal human is a 0, and a psyker is any individual who is 1+ on the scale).

 

So, using this 'ethereal' scale (which needs a better name), Jade would count as a -4 on the scale, while Redd would be a 0 (since he has no Warp ability) and the Emperor would be a 5, roughly.

 

Back to my point, there's no Pariah gene, as I assume there's no psyker gene. (*wary of incoming midichlorian evidence*) 

[MikhalLeNoir]

But hesh piece is just the individual view of one scientist.

 

In the whoke creation of the wardens i used the pariah gene ( active and inactive) the whole plot wouldn't work anymore. And the pariah gene is a part of the 40k lore. (okay xenos shenanigan but it is in an official codex)

 

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Pariah_Gene

 

 

I understood hesh attempt as a description of how the pariah powers work. It was not a piece of their creation process. If u look on the creation process of the primarchs, it was genetics the whole way with support of the warppowers. The human genom was altered and infused with the warp( heresy!!!). But the whole primarch and marine process was based on genetic alteration. And if there was a pariah gene in 40k lore there might be a mutation of the gene materiala which allows individuals to be more adept in the usage of warp powers. (fun fact: the mutated gene of psykers is also mentioned in the text above)

 

So if alpha lv psyker is a 4+ thx to his mutation the active gene grants a pariah prime a 4-.

 

 

This is a very interesting and disturbing passage:

 

"Spear", the Black Pariah - Within Imperial history, there has only been one known so-called "Black Pariah" to have ever existed. He was a former Imperial Assassin by the code-name of "Spear," who lived during the time of the Horus Heresy. Born as a human Untouchable, he was captured by the Silent Sisterhood and brought to Terra, where Clade Culexus experimented upon and augmented him in an attempt to create a more powerful and deadly form of Culexus Assassin. It is not known whether these augmentations or his unnatural abilities made him a Black Pariah. Spear was eventually deemed too unstable and dangerous by his clade's masters to be left alive. He was placed in the care of the Sisters of Silence and was sent aboard one of their lone vessels, bound for the heart of a nearby sun. Unfortunately, this vessel was intercepted by a Renegade vessel carrying the Dark Apostle Erebus of the traitorous Word Bearers Legion. Boarding the Sisters' vessel, the Word Bearers killed all aboard, with the exception of Spear. Sensing the usefulness of such a unique specimen, Erebus found a new purpose for his captive. He forced Spear to undergo a painful and vile Chaotic ritual, in which a minor daemon from the Immaterium was bonded with the former assassin. This bonding created a highly dangerous apex predator -- a "counter-psyker" -- capable of redirecting a psyker's attack directly back upon them. In order to utilise this ability, the Black Pariah first had to obtain a sample of his target's blood. This was a necessary component that helped him synchronise with his target's psionic abilities in order to reflect their attacks. Two standard years later, following the events of the Drop Site Massacre on Istvaan V, Erebus tasked his deadly minion to assassinate the Emperor. Spear spent an inordinate amount of time in order to painstakingly reach his ultimate goal -- a document that possessed a minute drop of the Emperor of Mankind's precious blood. Spear obtained the document on the world of Dagonet, bringing him into direct conflict with an Imperial Execution Force composed of Imperial Assassins from every clade, who were attempting to assassinate the Traitor Primarch Horus. Though the mission was ultimately deemed a failure, resulting in the death of all its members, this confrontation resulted in the Black Pariah's destruction. Horus later chastised Erebus for his audacious plan to assassinate the Emperor, declaring that when the opportune moment finally dawned, it would be him -- and him alone -- who killed the Master of Mankind.

 

Binding a daemon to a pariah?

[Doctor Perils]

Two, as Hesh's piece pointed out, there really isn't a Pariah gene, which is why Jade will never be able to create Pariah marines if he comes from a purely scientific perspective. Like psykers, the Pariah nature is connected to an individual's ethereal nature, not his biological one. The Emperor is able to create Pariahs because he is able to use his vast power to manipulate an individual's 'ethereal' rating (with Pariah representing the negative on a scale, a normal human is a 0, and a psyker is any individual who is 1+ on the scale).

 

So, using this 'ethereal' scale (which needs a better name), Jade would count as a -4 on the scale, while Redd would be a 0 (since he has no Warp ability) and the Emperor would be a 5, roughly.

 

Back to my point, there's no Pariah gene, as I assume there's no psyker gene. (*wary of incoming midichlorian evidence*) 

 

As Mikhal says, there definitely is a Pariah Gene. It just hasn't been properly isolated by humans yet, which is the answer Jade is looking for, surely.

[simison]

Very well, I retract the gene argument.

 

I am not retracting the nearby Pariah argument. As a scientist, Jade would be monitoring, if not personally performing the operation. If Koschei were to die under his care, Jade would be attempting medical procedures to revive him. At no point would Nurgle have an opportunity to avoid Jade's Pariah aura to reach Koschei's corpse. 

[MikhalLeNoir]

I don't think the experiment is an operation. No butchering. Some kind of serum combined with radiation. Even today a scientist views from afar. Or did the people at the manhattenproject were at the detonationpoint if the nuke to monitor the exact strains on the human body?

 

Uhm...as it states in the article: you can even attach a daemon to a living pariah (okay i think that is nonsense but it is canon). But you your standpoint is, that it is jade doing all of this. I already adressed the issue in my thinking with kozja as wild card. Attempting such a great problem, it could be very likely that both primarchs try the feat. So if jades aura could pollute the experiment and he will know it from past experiments that his aura has a effect than he would be far away to ensure thst his aura doesn't habe any effect on the experiment. For the scientist jade is described. Who tests his brothers against more and more dangerous enemies just to have data, it seems unlikely that he is suddenly caring in such a nig way for his brothers that he risks to endanger such an important experiment. The way you described Jade beforehand shows to me a scientist for the hunt of knowledge. You can say even some kind of faustian charscter who made a pact with the devil( icarion).

 

So even if he dashes out and wants to help his dead brother there is a short moment were koscheis warp supressant is deactivated and jade is out of reach. Just a moment but for a god who can reach down enough time. We are talking about a god of the warp. In the warp time is not the same. It could be that he had there 1000000 of years to set a spark into koscheis soul. Wait did I say soul? Aren't pariahs soulless? Not quite as stated in the reference article."These mutants have little to no psychic existence in the Warp, thus lacking what others would consider a soul. "[...] so it might be, that koschei wasn't entirly invisible in the warp but was protected by his warp supressant ability. In the short time frame of his "death", he was vulnerable and for a god it should be enough time to do his deeds. It is not known how many warp energy is needed to revive a person, so that is pnly speculation. But I think that the god of life and death could do the trick.

 

And this is just an idea which could add new layers to characters and create new narratives. ( how did jade/kozja get the knowledge to meddle in gene affairs?) did they send thieves into the imperial palace to steal data from the primarch project etc?

[bluntblade]

It still just doesn't seem right to me, somehow. And I prefer the image of Koschei dragged down by what's left of his own people.

[MikhalLeNoir]

It still just doesn't seem right to me, somehow. And I prefer the image of Koschei dragged down by what's left of his own people.

 

Nooooooo!! You misunderstood me here. Koschei starts to hear whispers ( which is nurgle) I made up a reason for the starting point. The stine which creates more and more waves and ending in a tsunami ( when his own people drags him down)

 

All this to retain his nature in the pariahfamily. As stated at the beginning: it is possible to keep him there without making up some counter psykers.

 

All plays out the exact way it was planned. Only their was an additional layer and story arc. Which could play out. And if all have problems with jade ( he was the foremost choice cuz he wants to create pariahs and therefore has the biggest expertise and he is ruthless enough to test something on his brother ( and don't tell me jade feels suddenly remorse) we can still use kozja who would help a brother in despair. Or even travier ( only here I think it could be to obvious that he tries to "infect" koschei -> i like the hybris thing more)

[Kelborn]

Question is

 

When Jade is working on Koschei and deactivates his pariah gene, would he even sense or detect a possible influence of Nurgle? Or would he need to leave Koschei behind for a couple of moments so that Nurgle can work on him?

 

Would it be possible that when Koshei died, blood of someone else got into his wounds? From there on, Nurgle can lurk in this drips of blood or whatever, waiting for the right moment. When the pariah genes are deactivated, he could spread into Koscheis body, changing just a tiny spot where he can nest, planting the seed for Koscheis future.

 

Keep in mind that we are talking about Nurgle, one of the four greatest demons ever with godlike abilities. If there is a possibility to corrupt someone, he can do it. Although I can imagine him being the most patient of the four. He trapped Mortarion and his Legion inside a warpstorm, infested their ships and waited for so long until they finally gave in. The only other god who would do that is Tzeentch.

[Doctor Perils]

Of course, all this doesn't need to be stated clearly! In canonverse, there are lots of things that aren't stated clearly, or where they discuss multiple possible theories: in particular, for the Alpha Legion. Even today we don't know for certain if there are one, two, or according to some, three Primarchs for the Alpha Legion! This is one of the things that gives canonverse depth I think, as it gives readers the possibility of debating for hours over the question.

If that is the case, why should we force upon the readers, and upon ourselves, one unique answer to all of the questions ? Koschei's fall could be just one of these questions :)

[Skalpynock]

I would have written a long post where I would have attempted to conciliate both explanations of Koschei's fall in one unified theory, but Thorn's post just saved me one hour of writing.

[MikhalLeNoir]

I would have loved to read it though ;)

[Doctor Perils]

I would to, your explanation could be part of the theories

 

PS: I like your new sig

[bluntblade]

I think Thorn's right on this issue. Adds to the horror when Koschei returns, too

[Skalpynock]

Alright. Remember that story I wrote not long ago, about Koschei and Kozja conceptualizing the Reformist faction? When I wrote it initially, I figured it would be the last time the two meet pre-corruption. What if it was not? What if Koschei voiced more grief to his brothers, told them of the nightmares and presences he felt, and of his desire to get rid of them – even at the cost of his life, to balance Daer'dd's death. Here, it is Kozja who presses the need for a great act of psycho-surgery, scared of having to lose yet another brother by his own inaction (he still blames himself for the demise of the Thousand Sons), while the General just sees, at last, the opportunity to operate one of his own. The bizarre nature of Koschei – neither a real pariah, nor a psychic being – is supposed to be the source of his ill. Much to the Jade General's disgust, the two flesh-crafters attempt to restore the innate psyker abilities in Koschei. They somewhat succeed, although the backfire is a sudden storm of feelings in the VIII^th primarch. What's more, word reaches them that Zbruch has come under attack by an unknown forces, to which the Godslayer orders a complete retreat of his legion to save their homeworld. During five months, there is no contact with them, and the Reformists decide to make haste and break away from the Nova Imperium, hoping for the 8^th to join them once they return, clashing with the Grave Stalkers and murdering K'awil in the process. When the Godslayers return however, it is in a new form, as much corrupted as the sons of Travier and Raktra were. Kozja sheds a single tear for what could have been, had they truly succeeded. The General's conviction that the Warp is anathema to mankind is reinforced to the point of complete obsession.

 

 

PS: I like your new sig

Only lacking a Vitruvian symbol for the Suzies!

[MikhalLeNoir]

Only what I meant was that the initial whispers begin with the psycho surgery. Before that nurgle had no place their ( although it is a nice point if the reader can argue if nurgle was there from the beginning. Sitting in a pariah or if kozja was it who opened koschei for nurgles unfluence. Ornif koschei was beginning to get insane and heard whispers of his own and after kozja "healed" him of his pariahness, nurgle used that and the insanity was replaced by nurgle who took the form which koshcei saw. A lot of mystery whcih I like.

[simison]

Mikhal, you misunderstood the Jade's reaction. It's not one of brotherly love, but of fear. Imagine telling the Emperor that you just killed one of his best generals in a science experiment gone awry. Not only is your professional reputation ruined, but there will be punishments coming directly from the Emperor himself. 

 

And, quite frankly, your nuclear bomb analogy doesn't work. 

 

Now, I'm not denying that a Pariah can have a daemon attached to him. What I'm denying that it can be done without intense ritual and work. What you've been proposing is that Nurgle resurrects a Primarch without the necessary ritual to make it possible and for no one to be aware of the Warp energy used in such an operation. I find this so unrealistic that it's not viable. I don't like doing this, but as project leader, I am shooting this version of the idea down. Especially when the primary motivation is to simply maintain a 'balance' that isn't necessary.

 

Now, I find Skal's version workable, no death and magical resurrections but a simple tweaking of genes which renders Koschei much more open to influence and gives some pretty good character opportunities for the Reformists and Koschei. That's good and fine, and I'll leave it to Squig to make the final approval.

 

Thorn, while I agree that murky history has its place, what we're working out here is a major character point for one of the Primarchs. I'm okay with the final version of the story being more vague to leave the readers debating what happened, but for us, the actual writers, we should know what's going on to prevent canon conflicts down the road.