Father Mehman Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 So, it's no surprise that someone who has an Unforgiven Successor Chapter would get curious about their parent's roots. I mean, everyone gets older and some of us would like to know our lineage to tell our kids stories at night. That's what I'm asking about in this topic. Here are the questions that have been bugging me sprinkled in with some commentary: -Flock of Seagulls...er, Ravens- We get the story of why the Deathwing are bone coloured in the Codex, I believe, but nothing on the Ravenwing and their providence. Why the raven? Why black (besides the raven being black...)? Why so many feathers all over the place (eg: the Deathwing Terminators in the Dark Vengeance box, Dark Angels Veteran Upgrade box, other stuff aimed at the Unforgiven)? Let me expand upon some things here. I've heard that the Dark Angels were retconned years back and that their original Terran culture (ie: Vikings for the Wolves, Renaissance Italy for the Blood Angels, Russian awesomeness for the Death Guard, etc) was Indian. I don't know if that means Indians from India or Native Americans from the Americas, although the latter makes more sense due to the feathers. I've also heard tale of animal skins used by the Dark Angels pre-retconning. You see, the bird motif is interesting to me because the Dark Angels seem to have more of a "secret society" vibe now. The "secrets within secrets, lies within lies" and "truth hidden in plain sight" mottos are what come to mind, not an animal-fearing Chapter. Yes, I know about the monsters from Caliban all those years ago but... I just don't see it explained anywhere. -My Mouth is Open but I cannot Scream- Those Watchers in the Dark- you know, the little guys running around everywhere. What's their story? I assume they were added in the fluff at some point to make the Dark Angels seem more mysterious or something. Am I wrong? Is it that they convey the image of the all-knowing narrator in the dark poem that is the Dark Angels Chapter? They know the Lion is in the Rock. We know that. It's a hugely tragic plot point that our Primarch sleeps when he could be fulfilling his destiny as a scion of the noble Emperor, all praise his name. For every life the Enemy takes from the Unforgiven adds more tragedy to the story. Anyway, the Watchers in the Dark are the mysterious, all-knowing key to unlocking the cell of El'Johnson. Huh. Also, the stone angels. I absolutely love them and they're one of the reasons I started the Clerics. There has to be a meaning behind them. Maybe? -Sleep on the Edge of the Razor- The meteor shower or planet explosion that hit the Rock and blah, blah, blah we have meteorite swords! Do only the original Successor Chapters have one or can their Successors have one, too? I'm very confuzzled. Any help would be greatly appreciated on these questions ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Bruinen Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Hi Mehman, As far as 'within fluff' explanations go, the ravenwing got it's name from the outriders/scouts of the Order (of which the Lion was head before the emperor showed up) - see the Horus heresy novel Descent of Angels. I'm not too sure where they got their name from though. I'll check the book when I get home. The American Indian theme has indeed died down. I think it largely arose from Two Heads Talking, so the retcon could perhaps be explained away as recruits from that particular world bringing some of their culture with them, but when that planet was lost to the genestealers, the culture was lost with it. That's just me taking some poetic licence though. The watchers are meant to be a big unknown. Again referring to Descent of Angels, they seemed to guard the places on Caliban where chaos was strongest - but they were there to protect humans from going in, rather than protecting chaos! They are indeed very anti-chaos, but are rumoured to be some kind of xenos. Unfortunately that's about all I can add- hope that helps though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Don't think of birds, think of Angel's wings for the feathers. Also the Imperial Eagle is the source for a few. People look at our robes and think monk but Angel robes are another way to look at it. Black armor came from the original legion color. At first both the 1st and 2nd companies were black once the rest of the chapter became green. Its possible that the black armor symbolizes the fact that they have to get down and dirty with the fallen and secrets that the 'pure' green armored DAs are spared from knowing. It help them to know they are forever apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainStabby Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The AmerIndian culture comes specifically from the world that the Terminator squad saved in the Deathwing story for Space Hulk, Dark Angels, fluff wise at that point were said to recruit from multiple sources, but that planet was one of the ones most heavily used. It's not a thing from the Terran Born 1st Legion, or at least it wasn't when that story was put to print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotsmasha Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 So, it's no surprise that someone who has an Unforgiven Successor Chapter would get curious about their parent's roots. I mean, everyone gets older and some of us would like to know our lineage to tell our kids stories at night. That's what I'm asking about in this topic. Here are the questions that have been bugging me sprinkled in with some commentary: -Flock of Seagulls...er, Ravens- We get the story of why the Deathwing are bone coloured in the Codex, I believe, but nothing on the Ravenwing and their providence. Why the raven? Why black (besides the raven being black...)? Why so many feathers all over the place (eg: the Deathwing Terminators in the Dark Vengeance box, Dark Angels Veteran Upgrade box, other stuff aimed at the Unforgiven)? Let me expand upon some things here. I've heard that the Dark Angels were retconned years back and that their original Terran culture (ie: Vikings for the Wolves, Renaissance Italy for the Blood Angels, Russian awesomeness for the Death Guard, etc) was Indian. I don't know if that means Indians from India or Native Americans from the Americas, although the latter makes more sense due to the feathers. I've also heard tale of animal skins used by the Dark Angels pre-retconning. You see, the bird motif is interesting to me because the Dark Angels seem to have more of a "secret society" vibe now. The "secrets within secrets, lies within lies" and "truth hidden in plain sight" mottos are what come to mind, not an animal-fearing Chapter. Yes, I know about the monsters from Caliban all those years ago but... I just don't see it explained anywhere. The Indian stuff comes from the Two-Heads Talking story. The Ravenwing's name at least comes from the outriders, as stated, the Order of the Ravens Wing. -My Mouth is Open but I cannot Scream- Those Watchers in the Dark- you know, the little guys running around everywhere. What's their story? I assume they were added in the fluff at some point to make the Dark Angels seem more mysterious or something. Am I wrong? Is it that they convey the image of the all-knowing narrator in the dark poem that is the Dark Angels Chapter? I strongly suggest Gav Thorpes' 4 40k Dark Angel books, some like them, some dont, but they are enlightening fluff-wise none the less. They know the Lion is in the Rock. We know that. It's a hugely tragic plot point that our Primarch sleeps when he could be fulfilling his destiny as a scion of the noble Emperor, all praise his name. For every life the Enemy takes from the Unforgiven adds more tragedy to the story. Anyway, the Watchers in the Dark are the mysterious, all-knowing key to unlocking the cell of El'Johnson. Huh. Not even Azrael knows The Lion is on the Rock, that is knowledge we, and the Watchers have, none other. Also, the stone angels. I absolutely love them and they're one of the reasons I started the Clerics. There has to be a meaning behind them. Maybe? -Sleep on the Edge of the Razor- The meteor shower or planet explosion that hit the Rock and blah, blah, blah we have meteorite swords! Do only the original Successor Chapters have one or can their Successors have one, too? I'm very confuzzled. Is it 9 Heavenfall Blades? I don't recall. However, in the current fluff they are not all accounted for iirc. Any help would be greatly appreciated on these questions ! Cheers, Jono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The original Deathwing story had a Native American feel to it and it became canon when the Space Hulk supplement Deathwing was released along with the original pewter terminator minis oh so many years ago. This were modelled with feathers to reflect the Native American influence. After the retcon, there has really been no definitive reason for the feathers even though they continue to be modelled on the minis. I guess they are using the "Angel" and "Wings" to explain them in a very roundabout way. As Ravens have a link in Native American lore, the Ravenwing could have originally started from there. There is also some very old artwork of the Dark Angels in black armor but with a very Caucasian complexion. When they decided to reorganize everything for 2nd Edition, the Dark Angels went green but they had some black armored art and so leaving one company to be black could explain it away. Originally, only Azrael had a sword carved from a single block of obsidian that had never lost its edge. This is the beginnings of the Sword of Secrets and the later Heavenfall Blades. The meteorite was added in later and the additional swords. It was said in a later codex that there were enough Heavenfall blades made that they were shared with the Successors. So the Clerics would be in possession of at least one Heavenfall Blade. This was most likely done by GW to promote the use of a DA successor, since up until the 4th or 5th Ed Codex which first revealed the Disciples, Guardians and Consecrators everyone only ever played Dark Angels. Now we have more people playing DA Successors but they still don't get any love in terms of characters. They have to be counts-as. I would still have preferred the title be used in place of a name (Belial and Sammael) and allow a bit more customization to reflect different people in that position. The Watchers have always been an enigma for the longest time. The Dark Angels are supposedly very intolerant of Abhumans and other Xenos and yet they tolerate the Watchers which is a unique Xenos known only to the Unforgiven and perhaps the Emperor. I always found it odd that the Watchers would only revel themselves to the highest ranking officers of the Dark Angels so that the rank and file Dark Angels would never see them and yet there is a model of one that follows Azrael everywhere he went. The Watchers act in many ways to the House Elves of Harry Potter lore. They are everywhere but you would never notice them and their innate power is far above that of any Librarian or psyker and they can go many places with ease. I would not put it past them that they can access the Black Library in the Webway if they should so desire and not even a Harlequin could stop them. (That just gave me an idea for a story about how Ahirman was thwarted because of the Watchers and their ability to call upon the Unforgiven.) The stone angels are a representation of the Angel of Death another name for the Dark Angel so they would have their origins from Terra and would have been apart of the chapter from the beginning. This is also the entrance to the biblical influences we see in the Dark Angels. The Angel of Death that killed the firstborn of Egypt in Exodus. I believe that angel was armed with a sword. Belial and Azrael are names of Fallen Angels (explain that one) and Naaman was a character in the New Testament whose servant was healed remotely. Apologies for being picky, but Naaman was actually an Old Testament captain/officer who was stricken with leprosy, and was healed after following instructions to wash himself in the Jordan River seven times. +1 for the rest of the explanation though. Time for my own sidebar, anyone notice that only the Dark Angels seemed to have had a shuffling of Company Masters/Captains? No other chapter save Tycho of the Blood Angels have ever left their position in the Codicies? Belief used to be Master of the Third and I think Sammael was in charge of the Forth and Gideon was in charge of the Ravenwing. Sheol was in charge of the Fifth but he has since disappeared from the rolls with no explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostrael Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 You may find some information in 'The Unforgiven' book, but you would also find a lot of more questions. Grand Master Nakir of the Consecrators also possesses a Heavenfall blade, called the Sword of Sanctity. Once it was gifted to Grand Master Orias, first lord of the Disciples of Caliban. He fell in battle against the orks of the Quolon Pass and was recovered by Nakir of the Consecrators. It was said they are made of a dark metal that was found only Caliban. I think it's possible that the clerics could have such a relic, if you come up with a good story. As for the Watchers, they watch and guard. They are connected to the fate of Caliban, the evil that lurks in its core. They know the future and the past. They are capable of some mind tricks... Whenever I write something about them I get ignored. Anyway I think you will forget that I have written that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted November 3, 2015 Author Share Posted November 3, 2015 By the Primarch we have an intelligent lot ! Thank you all so much for clearing up those questions and adding in your own ideas, too. I feel much better knowing a bit more about our Primogenitor Chapter. Selfishly, this information will be used in my own Chapter . Heavenfall Blade? Well why not? There will be a story about how that happens. I can hear the hammers pounding out meteorite now... Watchers in the Dark in the Fortress-Monastery of the Clerics? How about another "yes"? As an aside, I like to think of them as squishy little fellows just doing what the Chapter needs to be done. So many new ideas to take to my thread. If I could hug you all I would. Thank you all again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbaeza94 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Watchers are a xenos species associated with he anti chaos cabal (Hh: Fallen Angels) that approached the alpha legion as well. What they are up to is unknown. **SPOILERS FOR HH:LEGION** The original purpose of the cabal during the HH was the impirium and the emperor to lose, so that horus would destroy humanity and as a result, chaos. It was farseen. If horus lost, chaos would thrive and the galaxy would be consumed eventually. This was also farseen. This is why I believe alpha legion is still loyal and why they fought with horus. But that's a theory for another time. **END SPOILERS** They are seen in the Legacy of Caliban trilogy, and again up to some strange things, especially in the Unforgiven. Read this series! I feel there is some Alpha Legion type dual loyalties thing going on with them. Ok OK, I'll stop with he heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 We get the story of why the Deathwing are bone coloured in the Codex, I believe, but nothing on the Ravenwing and their providence. Why the raven? Why black (besides the raven being black...)? Why so many feathers all over the place (eg: the Deathwing Terminators in the Dark Vengeance box, Dark Angels Veteran Upgrade box, other stuff aimed at the Unforgiven)? Why the raven? There's a two part answer to that. The first part is that the Ravenwing - as in, the specialized formation of the Dark Angels Chapter - most likely inherited its name from a division of Calibanite knights who formed a troupe of elite cavalry. The second part is that no real information is given as to why that Calibanite group called themselves the Order of the Ravens Wing. Why black? Because that was the original color of the Dark Angels Legion's panoply. It stands to reason that, while the main force of the (later, uninitiated) Dark Angels switched to forest-green panoply in honor of lost Caliban, the warrior of the First and Second Companies maintained the black as their true purpose was to hunt down the Fallen who betrayed the First Legion. Had the Dark Angels Legion originally worn red armor, the First and Second Companies would have worn red armor; it's that simple. Had there been warriors of the Second Company on the recruiting world from the "Unforgiven" short story, it's likely that the Ravenwing would have switched to bone-white armor as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 On the subject of "Deathwing" with Two-Heads Talking, keep in mind many stories told to the neophytes are apocryphal in nature and the details change as the listener gets closer to the Inner Circle. This story may just be the version told to Scouts and line Battle Brothers to explain the heraldry of the Deathwing. The true story may not have been told to us yet and the genestealers in the story may get replaced with something even more sinister to the Dark Angels. It's the gray areas and uncertainties that drew me to the Dark Angels in the first place. I miss the days when plot holes and contradictions in 40K could be explained away with the fact that over 10,000 years history has been rewritten numerous times and not the same ways across the galaxy. Nowadays everything has to be explained and is set in stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostrael Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Watchers are a xenos species associated with he anti chaos cabal (Hh: Fallen Angels) that approached the alpha legion as well. What they are up to is unknown. **SPOILERS FOR HH:LEGION** The original purpose of the cabal during the HH was the impirium and the emperor to lose, so that horus would destroy humanity and as a result, chaos. It was farseen. If horus lost, chaos would thrive and the galaxy would be consumed eventually. This was also farseen. This is why I believe alpha legion is still loyal and why they fought with horus. But that's a theory for another time. **END SPOILERS** ... the Alpha Legion. It may be that some stayed true to the Emperor. Perhaps those who where closest to their Primarch and know a part of their plans. The rest is just chaos filth and follows other truths. G.Thorpe mentioned in his blog that Alpha Legion and Dark Angels are not closely related http://gavthorpe.co.uk/2015/09/23/more-dark-angels-secrets-revealed/ As for the cabal, I tend to believe the Cabal from Legion and the cabal of the watchers are not the same. There are more players in this game than those that meet the eye. The Watcher are guarding the secret of Tuchulcha, the taint of Caliban, ouroboros, the Plagueheart and other things. So what would happen if the Alpha Legion would know of Tuchulcha. "They thought they could tame the warp, use me to dig their tunnels and secret ways hidden from the eyes of the Powers That Rule."- Tuchulcha As the Dark Angels guard their secrets, they also protect what lies at the heart of the Rock. Some things better stay hidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Well, actual Terran history I think lends the Ravenwing a bit... Look familiar at all?http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/fred40k2002/87342ac3beb7884c09cad329af7aa28d.jpghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars#Armour_and_weaponry Then there is this...http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w20/fred40k2002/166px-Polish_Horsemans_picks_from_XVII_century.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseman%27s_pick : A metal-made horseman's pick called "nadziak" was one of the main weapons of the famous Polish winged hussars. So that explains the feathers even before we get to the Native American theme... Wikipedia is quite useful and you can see some of the parallels in the source material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quixus Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 There is a very similar weapon that is even closer in name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Dark Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Love the polska ref. Really interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted November 3, 2015 Author Share Posted November 3, 2015 I hadn't thought about the relation to the Hussars. That makes sense as to the kits we've seen in the past 10 years. The glorious mechanized calvary rides in to lead the battle against the Enemy ! When I originally heard they had an "Indian" providence, I automatically thought of the Rajputs and their four or five foot long swords. That they are holy men, fighting men made a lot of sense as for the setting. Then the feather bedecking made me think of Native America pre-colonisation and the glories of the Aztec and North American civilizations. To say I feel let down is too strong an emotion but it is somewhere close to the truth. Hussars are very cool in a brutal sort of way, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainStabby Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 GW borrows pretty heavily from historical sources, sometimes for good, sometimes for ill. I always felt like the native americans in space was a neat idea, but handled poorly, and then the lore of the DA shifted to knightly stuff, which to me was weird because I kinda felt like the Templars and to a lesser extent Fists had that covered. I dunno, I guess it makes sense for a chapter that recruits from all over the place to have smatterings of different culture, but the lack of coherency bothers my inner lore-nerd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punk possum Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I might not be able to answer in fluff terms but I do know where the native American influence came from and where it went. Mike Mcvey was very interested and inspired by Native American culture and imagery, He decided that it would be cool to translate that into the Warhammer Fantasy and 40K backgrounds. so he painted up some Space apache/ Sioux Marines and that was that, the next Space hulk expansion was being planned around the Dark Angels the guys in the studio thought that Space native Americans were cool so they became Dark Angels, they then made up a cool story about why they had suddenly changed from black to white drawing from more Native American influences and lo the Deathwing where born. But then a few years down the line some one somewhere decided it wasn't the bestest of ideas to so evidently have ethnic types in space as it could be considered in poor taste so the Native American imagery got quietly dropped but the feathers stayed because they had become kind of synonymous with the Deathwing and anyway they are Angels and angels have wings with feathers and stuff so that will probably be OK. The Raven wing are interesting too they are mentioned in the first Space marine Army list that was published in White Dwarf 90 something but in those days they were exclusively mounted on MK14 "Bullock" jet cycles and would have set you back 1550pts for a Squad of 10! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 I love this forum so much right now . Again, hugs all around. I get the reasons for not wanting the ethnic stereotype. I shudder whenever I see Robin Egg Blue for the Space Wolves because, you know, Viking heritage but I can't speak for my Native friends. As long as it wouldn't become a cartoonish play on... oh yeah, the Orks . Anyway, I'm glad to have the history behind the scenes of what happened. Very grateful for that, mate. So what else could I ask the forum/site? Hmm. I do want to mention that the question of why the Ravenwing was black was my mistake. I had a complete brain shut-down on the colour change so, you know, thanks for not beating me and actually answering me. So. Well. You read any good books lately? I'm all out of questions at the moment so huzzah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainStabby Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I hadn't heard that explanation for the Deathwing stuff Possum, makes sense though. I would love to see a well done Native American themed astartes force, I don't believe I've seen anyone tackle it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 I hadn't heard that explanation for the Deathwing stuff Possum, makes sense though. I would love to see a well done Native American themed astartes force, I don't believe I've seen anyone tackle it before. Oh if I had the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othniel's Blade Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 The stone angels are a representation of the Angel of Death another name for the Dark Angel so they would have their origins from Terra and would have been apart of the chapter from the beginning. This is also the entrance to the biblical influences we see in the Dark Angels. The Angel of Death that killed the firstborn of Egypt in Exodus. I believe that angel was armed with a sword. Belial and Azrael are names of Fallen Angels (explain that one) and Naaman was a character in the New Testament whose servant was healed remotely. Apologies for being picky, but Naaman was actually an Old Testament captain/officer who was stricken with leprosy, and was healed after following instructions to wash himself in the Jordan River seven times. +1 for the rest of the explanation though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punk possum Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 If I remember right Firepower made a good start on a Native American inspired DIY chapter a couple of years ago. They had a north eastern seaboard vibe to them and were very nice from what I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Belial Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I hadn't heard that explanation for the Deathwing stuff Possum, makes sense though. I would love to see a well done Native American themed astartes force, I don't believe I've seen anyone tackle it before. Oh if I had the time... I may have to write up some notes for next years Brotherhood of the Angels Competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I'm quite inspired by that Polish Hussar picture, great timing whilst I paint my RW :tu: Thanks Brother Dean :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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