Father Mehman Posted November 4, 2015 Author Share Posted November 4, 2015 I hadn't heard that explanation for the Deathwing stuff Possum, makes sense though. I would love to see a well done Native American themed astartes force, I don't believe I've seen anyone tackle it before. Oh if I had the time... I may have to write up some notes for next years Brotherhood of the Angels Competition. Not if I get to it first ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzhands Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Now I have some information to drop next time someone mocks my bikers with pick axes! (Though that might be the northeasts mining history coming through ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Honestly, I can only think of two reasons that I didn't like the Native American theme:1. It was so blatantly on the nose. The best efforts in incorporating real world cultural themes in 40k and the Horus Heresy have been the ones that either subtly incorporated and modified certain elements. Close behind were the ones that were more blatant, per se, but were written well and benefited from the fact that the reader was perhaps not as familiar with certain cultures. A good comparison, I think, is that of Bill King's Space Wolves and Chris Wraight's White Scars. Both are rather blatant and liberal with their use of real cultures, but the former relies on broad stereotypes of a well-known culture and - with respect to Bill - sometimes reduces what he's presenting to a caricature. The latter benefited from the fact that most of us probably only have a general idea of what the warriors of the Asian steppes were like, and is rather more solemn in his treatment of their Space Marine evolution. King's Native American Dark Angel theme wasn't disrespectful or caricature-like. The culture he presented was, however, something all-too familiar and almost directly lifted. 2. It goes against another key theme of the Dark Angels. A large part of the reason why the Dark Angels concept (never-ending hunt against the Fallen to erase the secret shame of their betrayal during and following the Horus Heresy) is because the Chapter indoctrinates (psychologically, chemically, hypnotically, etc.) its recruits to lose their connection to their previous lives. It replaces those memories and emotional attachments with the shared culture and values of the Chapter. As one progresses through the ranks and enters the Deathwing and the Inner Circle, that culture and those values increasingly take on the character of the First Legion. This concept rather falls apart if the Chapter's most elite warriors start caring more about the fate of an adopted recruiting world as opposed to the legacy of their Chapter's actual long-lost homeworld, which was destroyed by their immortal renegade cousins. Now, to be fair, Bill King wrote "Deathwing" some six years before Codex: Angels of Death was released. I didn't start getting into the Warhammer 40k universe until 2004 or so, and thus I have very little knowledge as to what the Dark Angels were like before "Deathwing" or between the release of that short story and the Codex in question. Thus, King's approach may very well not have contradicted anything then. I am, however, a big fan of the Hunt for the Fallen and of the depiction of the Dark Angels as something akin to what the Knights Templar were historically accused of being: a sinister knighthood secretly involved in nefarious deeds. And so, while the Native American theme may very well be the earlier one, it is rather hard to reconcile with the current one - even for someone as myself, who is interested in reconciling the various bits of contradictory background. Suffice to say that I subscribe to the idea that the Native American theme and the "Deathwing" short story are allegorical devices presented to neophytes, Scouts and young battle-brothers. The cautionary tale contained within may be a double one: not just a "betrayal in the homeworld" device, but the notion that you can't in turn more or less abandon the Chapter to do your own thing. Again, this is all simply my humble opinion. If King's Native American-style Dark Angels are your cup of tea, I don't begrudge your choice one bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I'm quite inspired by that Polish Hussar picture, great timing whilst I paint my RW Thanks Brother Dean I got curious when I started mine a few years ago at the dawn of 6th.... I've always felt a bit of a vibe from the Kislev lancers more than a native theme and the Corvus hammers sealed the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainStabby Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I think what it comes down to is GW has always played fast and loose with it's fluff. They discard things and rework things that have been in place for years, sometimes decades with little regard for what it does to the heads of those of us that pay attention to that sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Sorry for using this thread ( I didn't want to start a new topic to ask this question). I have a question: Why Black Templars players hate Dark Angels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted December 3, 2015 Author Share Posted December 3, 2015 Everyone should feel free to use this thread ! Anyway, I think it has to do with the Dark Angels leaving the field to chase some Fallen during the Damocles Gulf conflict. I'm probably wrong so I hope someone will come by and tell you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 A Templar ship disappeared after contact with some Dark Angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Guys, are you serious? All of this BT * because of some fluff? *(I won't use word trolling but can't find appropriate substitute) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Mehman Posted December 4, 2015 Author Share Posted December 4, 2015 I have no problem with the Black Templars, especially on the B&C. They do fantastic work and hate xenos scum as much as I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother dean Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Firepower is a good guy... The story is that the Templars and DA dropped on a planet who was in rebellion because of a demigog whipping up the masses. The Templars came up with him captive and were going to hand him over to the =I=. The DA having followed clues and wanted him over our secret... Discussions were had.. Shots were fired. Prisoners were eventually handed over and complaints filed via astropath... Complaints that were never followed up on because said Templar ship disappeared in transit. [Guido]: That is a lovely strike cruiser. It would be a shame if something happened to it... [/Guido] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xNH Lion 12x Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Hi Mehman, As far as 'within fluff' explanations go, the ravenwing got it's name from the outriders/scouts of the Order (of which the Lion was head before the emperor showed up) - see the Horus heresy novel Descent of Angels. I'm not too sure where they got their name from though. I'll check the book when I get home. The American Indian theme has indeed died down. I think it largely arose from Two Heads Talking, so the retcon could perhaps be explained away as recruits from that particular world bringing some of their culture with them, but when that planet was lost to the genestealers, the culture was lost with it. That's just me taking some poetic licence though. The watchers are meant to be a big unknown. Again referring to Descent of Angels, they seemed to guard the places on Caliban where chaos was strongest - but they were there to protect humans from going in, rather than protecting chaos! They are indeed very anti-chaos, but are rumoured to be some kind of xenos. Unfortunately that's about all I can add- hope that helps though I remember reading on Zahariel's Wiki that the Watchers warned him about the Great Beast along his journey before he went to kill it, but I don't recall exactly what the Wiki said. Let me go find it and I'll edit this, I just didn't want to forget what I was going to say. Haha. Here we go, a direct quote from Zahariel's Wiki (and I know he sided with Luther on Caliban, or that is what is accepted, I think): "During his quest to the Northwilds, Zahariel encountered the Watchers in the Dark, a strange race of humanoid creatures of small stature, who warned him of venturing into the forests in the Northwilds, for they were corrupted -- but corrupted by what -- the Watchers would not say. They warned the young Knight of an evil that was the bane of all humanity -- an evil that could not be defeated, but could be held at bay for a time -- but so long as there were humans, it would exist. In hindsight, the Watchers' referral to an ancient evil that was the, "bane of all humanity," was most likely in reference to the inherent evil of the Ruinous Powers. Emboldened by this new knowledge, Zahariel vowed he would do everything in his power to stand against the same evil the Watchers stood against. Sensing the truth in the Knight's words, the Watchers accepted Zahariel's oath. With their warning given, the Watchers made their leave." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 Guys, are you serious? All of this BT * because of some fluff? *(I won't use word trolling but can't find appropriate substitute) And not just some fluff. It's a very ambiguous piece of fluff, DA are just a convenient scapegoat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted December 4, 2015 Share Posted December 4, 2015 They way I heard it was after a joint mission a Dark Angel mentioned that the Black Templar's Navigator was a Psyker..j/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebukkuk Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 My advice is, don't get too hung up on what came from where, and when. 40k is all about >> anachronisms <<. If the models we painted were real people (super humans in this case), they wouldn't give a grox dung about what ancient Terran culture their forefathers emulated. Such things would have been long forgotten anyway. Simply put, feathers on Dark Angels look cool. For all we know, it was fashionable for the knights of Caliban to wear them. +1 for the Hussar links on Wikipedia! Anyway, what bothers me most about the Dark Angels background is an apparent lack of inspiration in the written material. I hated reading Descent of Angels, but I don't put all the blame on the author. Jervis Johnson should have had more of a think on the planet Caliban, beyond ripping off the name from Frank Herbert (Caladan) and calling it a forest planet infested with Chaos creatures. :cuss, we don't even have the slightest indication why the Dark Angels behave and look like monks. Something about monasteries and a religious culture on Caliban would have gone a long way to explain that, but nooooooo.... here's a bunch of knights hunting scary things in the forest, wee. Rant over. Make your own background for the Clerics and Dark Angels if you feel inspired. It will be much better than what we get from the Black Library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Caliban... is not a ripoff of Herbert's work. He is one of the antagonists of The Tempest, by William Shakespeare - the same work that features another character whose name was borrowed by the Warhammer 40k IP: Prospero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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