HH Betrayal at Calth Alternate Units / Forces

[paulJam]

Anyone started thinking about this yet? Come up with any ideas?

 

played a couple of games last night just using my  40k vanilla marines   vs   40k vanilla chaos marines (couldn't be bothered painting anything just yet)... and treating loyalist as UM and chaos as WB.

 

enjoyed the simplicity of the system (quick game is a good game) and can see myself trying out some sm vs everyone else scenarios (probably sans-missions). I can see GW focusing units/cards just on the SM forces which is fair enough (a topic of another thread i saw re kits/official units etc) but i like the idea of throwing some filthy xenos into the mix (so heading more toward homebrew).

 

given there's are fewer parameters do you think it might work lumping  ig guardsman eq  in with   nid termagants eq   in with  ork boyz eq ?

(where perhaps - guard armour is 1 armor insteal of 2, auto-gun shoots 1 instead of 2 etc. perhaps nids get an extra action point for being faster etc).

 

anyway just throwing the idea out there for discussion and/or brainstorming.

[SlickSamos]

Some nice ideas there.  I'd also like to see this new game format expanded first to other chapters, then daemons and xenos as it seems a really solid tactical yet quick to pick up game.  

 

I'd thought similarly to you with 'loyalists' using the Ultramarine deck and 'traitors' using the Word Bearers and with Guard being 1 Armour Dice roll and 1 Hit Point and Lasgun/Auto-gun also being 1 dice.

 

Your thoughts on Nids is really good with three Actions.

 

Mayhaps as a starting point (using Armour = AS   Hit Points = HP   Close Combat = CC   Shooting = Gun):

 

Ork Shoota Boy

AS 0  HP 2  CC 1  Gun 2

Ork Choppa Boy

AS 0  HP 2  CC 2  Gun 1

Ork w/ Big Shoota

AS 0  HP 2  CC 1  Gun 4

Ork Nob w/ Choppa

AS 0  HP 4  CC 4  Gun 1

Ork Nob w/ Shoota

AS 0  HP 4  CC 3  Gun 2

 

Guard Infantry

AS 1  HP 1  CC 1  Gun 2

etc...

[paulJam]

Your thoughts on Nids is really good with three Actions.

 

Mayhaps as a starting point (using Armour = AS Hit Points = HP Close Combat = CC Shooting = Gun):

 

Ork Shoota Boy...

 

 

Guard Infantry

AS 1 HP 1 CC 1 Gun 2

etc...

good start slicksamos and exactly what i was thinking of... quick copy/paste as i can foresee someone saying no-xenos sooner rather than later.

 

i guess the next step and this is one that invariably bogs down the process is some kind of points equivalency. as in how many filthyXenos do you get per marine. delightfully simple using the BaC missions cos it tells you, one squad of X vs one squad of Y (with no real restrictions on special weapons choice, which is interesting).

so; AP, AS, HP, CC, Gun...

actually this could be really ugly if you include 'reroll' abilities, bonuses rolls for sgt with 2 weapons... details... details...

 

 

it probably wouldn't be too difficult to come up with some army flavored command cards either, such as if nids have a 'sgt' eq (warrior) in their group they don't fall back (as per synapse rule)

 

 

ok, a start (starting with the known tactical/terminator values) ...

Units

Unit	Armour/AS	Stamina/HP	Assault/CC	Bulk	Models
SM Tactical	2	2	2	1	10:9sm+sgt
SM Terminator	5	3	3	2	4smT+sgt
SM Centurion	5	2	2	2	3
SM Vanguard	2	2	3	1	10:9sm+sgt
SM Scout	1	2	1	1	10:9sc+sgt
IG Guardsman	1	1	1	1	15:14ig+sgt
O'k Boy	1	2	2	1	15:14boy+nob
O'k Nob	1	2	3	1	-
N'd Term	1	1	2	1	20
N'd Horm	1	1	4	1	20
N'd Warrior	5	3	4	2	3
CSM Tactical	2	2	2	1	10:9sm+sgt
CSM Terminator	5	3	3	2	4smT+sgt
CSM Oblitorator	5	2	3	2	3
CSM Mutilator	5	2	3	2	3
Cultist	1	1	1	1	15:14+champ
Bloodletter	1	1	3	1	8:7+bloodreaper
Bloodreaper	1	1	4	1	-

 

 

Weapons

Weapon	Shots	Range	Other	Critical Effect
Sniper Rifle	1	9	-	shooter selects target model, target model -1 AS die
Bolter	2	6	-	book
Bolt Pistol	2	3	Pistol	book
Plasma	3	6	-	book
Heavy Bolter	6	9	-	book
Missile Launcher	5	9	-	book
Fleshborer	1	5	-	parasites: reroll blanks
Deathspitter	3	6	-	parasites: reroll blanks
Slugga	2	3	Pistol	-
Shoota	2	5	-	-
Big Shoota	4	6	-	-
Choppa	CC	-	-	counts as: chainsword
PowerKlaw	CC	-	-	counts as: powerfist
Hellblade	CC	-	-	counts as: powersword
Autogun	2	6	-	-
Lasrifle	2	6	-	-
LasCannon	8	12	reroll misses on first roll	first target AS=0
Plasma Cannon	7	9	reroll misses on first roll	as plasma
Hurricane Bolter	6	9	reroll misses on first roll	as heavy bolter
Grav Cannon	5	9	-	target ArmorSave - Bulk

 

ModelEffects

Faction	Model	Notes
ok	O'k Boy	may take shoota or slugga/choppa
ok	O'k Nob	may take shoota or slugga/choppa or big shoota and powerklaw
tr	N'd Termi	Burst: In one activate per turn may perform two distinct actions.
tr	N'd Horma	Burst: In one activate per turn may perform two distinct actions.
tr	N'd Warrior	while a warrior remains on the board term/horm do not retreat from CC
cd	Bloodreaper	Counts as SM Vexilla (reroll melee attack and desperate last stands)
sm	Apothecary	all Models in Unit roll an additional defence die
sm	Sternguard	Special Ammunition means that ranged weapons have +1 to their shoot value
sm	Breacher	boarding shields increases their Armour value by 1
sm	Assault	jump pack doubles movement range for advance and run
sm	Storm Shield	reroll up to 2 missed armor saves
sm	Combat Shield	reroll 1 missed armor save
csm	Obliterator	may not run. can move and shoot. ignores bolter crit. choose from (per turn, not activation): assault cannon, heavy flamer, lascannon, multimelta, plasma cannon
csm	Mutilator	may not run. ignores bolter crit. choose from (per turn, not activation): powerfist x2, chainfist x2, lightning claw x2, powersword x2
sm	Centurion	may not run. can move and shoot. ignores bolter crit. may take hurrican bolter, grav cannon or missile launcher

 

suggestions/comments and ideas welcome.

 

the above is still more or less up to date but i'm creating a more comprehensive set of tables as a document (easier to format) as per post 23

[Allart01]

@Paul: Nice job.

But why are SM scouts so strong?

[paulJam]

@Paul: Nice job.

But why are SM scouts so strong?

Suggestions more than welcome. Was just putting down a list of some of the basic troops.

 

Edit: plus i copied it from termis and didn't fix it...

Fixed now. Thanks for the eyes.

[RandomMarine]

Breacher +1 defense dice

Assault marine +1 assault dice

Apocathery automatic -1 wound to all models on hex

Sternguard may shoot twice in a single activation if they don't move

Vanguard may double move if they don't shoot

[paulJam]

nice!!

 

Breacher +1 defense dice
Assault marine +1 assault dice
Apocathery automatic -1 wound to all models on hex
Sternguard may shoot twice in a single activation if they don't move
Vanguard may double move if they don't shoot

 

apothocary: ok do you mean for every model on the hex subtract that many wounds (so 3 max) from the hits rolled by the attacker, before picking the first target?

or an automatic save roll on any model nominated as target, and then add to whatever save rolls they then make?

 

sternguard and vanguard: perhaps i'm misunderstanding the rules but don't you move as an action or shoot as an action. then it's the other sides turn?

i didn't think you could move and then shoot.

 

[edit: ok, interpretation added to chart. alternate wording etc welcome]

[re: 2 moves... wouldn't that make them faster than speedy units like nids?]

[RandomMarine]

Apoc would be the first wound per model automatically negated

 

Not sure about stern/van myself but basically the idea was 2 shoot or 2 moves per activation respectivly.

Hopefully FW do downloadable cards for their units

[SlickSamos]

With respect to:

Apothecary - reword the special rule to 'all Models in Unit roll an additional defence die'.

Sternguard - Special Ammunition means that Bolters now have +1 to their shoot value.

Vanguard - increases their Attack value by 1 

Jump Packs - increase their Advance move to 2, Run move to 4, and may move up to 1 hex as part of their Assault action.

Boarding Shield - increases their Armour value by 1

 

Note that Assault Marines gain bonus attacks from their weapon load out so don't need to have their base Assault value increased so their statistics should be the same as a Tactical Marine's.  Likewise Breacher Marines would get their bonus defence dice from their wargear (see above).  

[Venerable Jazzman]

If this is meant to be in the confined tunnels etc under Calth, are jump-packs really feasible?

 

Have Marines with 2 ccw, but I just can't see them with jump-packs.

[SlickSamos]

Very good point...  Perhaps if it expanded to overground?

[Venerable Jazzman]

I would just stick to ground infantry only.

Keeps it simple, and stops the inevitable flyer creep that will end up with Storm Ravens vs Hellchickens. Or Monoliths :D

[paulJam]

ok i think that's updated now.

 

don't mind the idea of jump packs, left it in for now. if for example small fast nids get three AP to denote speed they could be running up to 6 hexes. so the jump pack pushing 4 (double run) per ap doesn't sound too unreasonable (on a tiny/standard board it's a bit godlike but on a bigger board it's just hopping around a battlfield...)

 

i definitely plan on playing it as overground scenario. As Brother Jazzman suggests we stick with... well infantry for a start.... but food for thought, wouldn't an (e.g.) landspeeder be similar to a dread but faster and less armour? base fits in a hex.

 

couple of basic test games with the F.X. wasn't overly one sided either way but the shooty vs stabby was quite noticable.

 

 

 

[ed: now with add-on board... and demonstrating why i'm not a carpenter.]

 

[ed: added ranged parameter for weapons, on the small boards you don't need it but on the bigger boards it seems incongruous that a pistol is limited to 3 but a bolter and missile launcher both have equal unlimited range. willing to remove it if everyone hates it. been playing test games.]

[Xenith]

If this is meant to be in the confined tunnels etc under Calth, are jump-packs really feasible?

 

 

 

The tunnels arent confined, theres space for tanks and fortresses inside them!

 

cf: Garro Oath of Moment, Mark of Calth, etc.

[Doghouse]

Looks good mate. 

 

I actually have a spare set of the floor plans so am cutting those out at the moment so I can make my own layouts, I will be getting another set but am sure you could get some more tiles on ebay.

[paulJam]

thanks doghouse.

so you're chopping the big board bits up into smaller segments? down to individual hexes?

 

the cheapest i saw on ebay was about $40aud, that was everything but the models.... spare set of dice might be nice for larger games. have started printing hexes for a DIY board.

 

have play tested vs orks a few times now and it seems ok with basic units. onto basic nids next.

[paulJam]

basic nids vs sm with stats based on current version of table above.

 

 

nothing fancy, no command cards etc just basically zerg rushed the nids into CC range asap.

 

for the extra action point i played it that the activated unit could use two AP in one activation at player's choice.

so in turn 1 nid squad 1 runs, then runs again. they then have 1 ap left.

alternately they could run then CC or shoot in the same activation (for 2 ap, leaving 1 ap).

anything to avoid a three sided AP marker for now.

could have played only 1ap only per activation but the nids would have been playing out extra ap after the sm were done anyway.

 

the extra ap really made the smaller nids zippy, and the warriors with the higher ArmorSave were a bit tougher too. a noticable contrast.

[AJB2K3]

As to chopping up the boards.
You do know that there is an online hex template generator that produces the templates as pdf?
You put in the page size and hex size and the site creates the template files for you!

http://incompetech.com/graphpaper/hexagonal/

[Excessus]

This is a really nice idea!

[paulJam]

so i was thinking with for csm oblits and mutilators and other 'slow but purposeful' units that they don't get to run as an action option but should probably get some alternate buff intead. ideas?

 

also considering sm centurion options. probably similar but with different weapon options.

 

i was thinking for buff perhaps ignores 'bolter critical effect' so doesn't lose their action if crit'd by bolter type weapons.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

so i was thinking with for csm oblits and mutilators and other 'slow but purposeful' units that they don't get to run as an action option but should probably get some alternate buff intead. ideas?

 

also considering sm centurion options. probably similar but with different weapon options.

 

i was thinking for buff perhaps ignores 'bolter critical effect' so doesn't lose their action if crit'd by bolter type weapons.

 

Cool idea. An alternate buff might be to allow them to perform an advance and shoot action for only 1 action point...?

[paulJam]

Cool idea. An alternate buff might be to allow them to perform an advance and shoot action for only 1 action point...?

sold.

the mutilator already has the move/cc i.e.charge, so not as big a buff as oblit perhaps.

[paulJam]

Formatted list i've been making in case anyone wants a copy. Mainly units i have/use for obvious reasons.

 

latest version...

1.05

2016-02-03

Alternate BaC Game Parameters (pdf file)

 

work in progress so additions/errors/suggestions/comments, please feel free to let me know.

[Space Truckin]

Looks good - debating on picking up BaC.  Got so much stuff to paint and very little free time I've been holding off on buying it.

Hopefully they will keep this game in print for a while.

[paulJam]

Thanks Truckin. The product is ok (excluding models) but could easily be played with proxies, plus rule book (most of which was on the rumours thread anyway).

I noticed on your recent 'new achievements for aef' thread there was a dark eldar mini game that wasnt worlds apart from BaC. Do you recall seeing many/any others like that before?