ruststalker help

[Hewkers]

so im looking at the rust stalkers to add to my army.

has anyone used them?

also im struggling to see why you would swap out the weapons and loose the grenades, am I missing something?

[Terminus]

Nope, you're not missing anything. The dual swords look really cool and have decent rules, so I would consider them as a valid option versus claw/razor, but giving up haywire assault grenades is not worth it at all.

[HumdrumInsanity]

Actually, I think that an argument can be made for taking the transonic blades. The blades outperform the razor/claw combo against virtually all targets except for when we start hitting T10 or so, so all that you're really losing is the grenades. The haywire aspect of the grenades can actually be completely replaced for 10pts if you grab the dataspike on the princeps, which'll give you 5 haywire attacks when you charge which would be the same as a min size squad of ruststalkers with the grenades. Basically all you'd lose if you took the blades is assault grenades which can be a pretty big deal in itself because ruststalkers are pretty fragile, but I think the option's more viable than it first seems.  

[MajorNese]

Actually, I think that an argument can be made for taking the transonic blades. The blades outperform the razor/claw combo against virtually all targets except for when we start hitting T10 or so, so all that you're really losing is the grenades.

Interesting point. I'm curious, by the math, by how much are they better? Only point I know without looking it up, is wounding T4 on the charge on 3+ (razor) / 2+ (chordclaw) / 2+ (blade), that's not a big difference.

 

Because if the difference is not really noticeable, the grenades offer more flexibility. Combined with a dataspike and WS+1 doctrina, we're talking about one-shotting imperial knights in CC. 5A dataspike, 4A grenades, hit on 3+, makes 6 haywire hits, so 5HP lost. Plus 1 grenade throw, that could close the knight topic. And cost-wise, that would even include a LandRaider to get them there alive...6" drive, 9" disembark, 3" + 2-12" charge, makes a threat range of 20-30". Brutal...

[HumdrumInsanity]

 

Interesting point. I'm curious, by the math, by how much are they better? Only point I know without looking it up, is wounding T4 on the charge on 3+ (razor) / 2+ (chordclaw) / 2+ (blade), that's not a big difference.

 

Because if the difference is not really noticeable, the grenades offer more flexibility. Combined with a dataspike and WS+1 doctrina, we're talking about one-shotting imperial knights in CC. 5A dataspike, 4A grenades, hit on 3+, makes 6 haywire hits, so 5HP lost. Plus 1 grenade throw, that could close the knight topic. And cost-wise, that would even include a LandRaider to get them there alive...6" drive, 9" disembark, 3" + 2-12" charge, makes a threat range of 20-30". Brutal...

 

Okay, I whipped up a quick excel document so you wouldn't have to. The spreadsheet shows the number of wounds a min sized unit of five ruststalkers would output assuming that they have charged, and it ignores rolls to hit and any armour saves your opponent may have.

http://i.imgur.com/FamoIhz.png

 

So yeah, they do perform a bit better up until T8 which is kind of a fringe case, but it's up to you really to decide if you think the increase in wounds balances out the lack of assault grenades. 

 

As for the case of taking out Knights and what not my local meta shies away from super heavies and we rarely see anything with more than 4 hull points on the table so I didn't think about that but that could work pretty well - ruststalkers are scarily effective at taking out vehicles.

[MajorNese]

Thank you, that makes things clear. Against T4 to T6, blades are only 18-10% better than claw/razor, so the difference is not that drastic.

 

At T3 and 4+ armour, the lack of assault grenades could take a higher toll before striking, that it could negate the slightly lower chance to wound. Even a regular tac squad (with veteran sergeant and power weapon) would have good chances of killing a model at I3, and maybe smash one or more models if armed with a powerfist. So the <20% blade bonus would be gone by losing 20% of the models due to the lack of assault grenades, while the +3" assault range encourages charges through any obstacle.

 

Knights aren't that rare around here, and even an intact LandRaider could be a problem at 5 dataspike attacks vs. 4HP. Throw in Gorkanauts (not even superheavies), ghost arcs and vehicle squadrons (Leman Russ tank commander), and the haywire overkill could be devastating, earning back several times the points in one successful charge. Also, a guaranteed kill is necessary, as this unit is quite fragile. If it fails to kill a target in one attempt, it won't get a second chance.

 

Short: For a pure infantry killer approach, the blades are slightly better, but the razor/claw/grenade combo offers more flexibility.

[Terminus]

For a pure infantry killer approach, you should be bringing Infiltrators. :)

[mmimzie]

Yeah bring arc rifles or something if you want to take out armor. Otherwise getting your dude into 8" just to lob a grenade and/or waste a charge on a tank <.<. Heck 1 or 2 dragoons do this job better for half the price and using yournun used fast attack slot.

 

As far as which is better?? What are you going to charge that isn't in cover?? The only enemy units usually not in cover are either super fast or are BA assault units your stalkers cant deal with.

 

Also the razor helps you stay in cbat during your enemies turn. Your plan isnt to wipe it out in one assault phase. The plan is to get the enemy to stick around in the first round amd run or die in the second one. So your stalkers are safe fr shooting. Razors are made for this.

[MajorNese]

Yeah bring arc rifles or something if you want to take out armor. Otherwise getting your dude into 8" just to lob a grenade and/or waste a charge on a tank <.<. Heck 1 or 2 dragoons do this job better for half the price and using yournun used fast attack slot.

It's not about using it as a dedicated tank hunter - it's about the sheer option of using it for that, in case the situation demands it. Turning a S6 slaughterbot into something that can take down superheavies if necessary, at just 10p increase (dataspike) and a slightly lower CC power, is a good deal in my book, if I had to take that unit anyway.

 

Heck, those would be damn great against 30k armies. (FlareShield/Ceramite) Spartans are extremely resilient (and extremely common) bigger landraiders, typically containing 10 terminators and a primarch, and are the ultimate steamroll deathstar. Sacrificing 170p to stop that before reaching it's destination, would be more than just a great deal. Those S8 dragoons would take their dear time to roll enough 6s to glance it to death, while arc vanguard would be bolter'd dead long before reaching double tap range. Still, arc breachers would be my personal go-to in that case anyway, haywiring it from across the board...

[Terminus]

It amuses me that you seem to think Ruststalkers fare any better vs bolters.

[MajorNese]

Well, the movement keeps them out of most of it, for quite some time. Some LoS blocking terrain and the huge movement range should be useful. I still find arc vanguard pretty underwhelming for that specific task, no considerable double tap range while slow and without transports. Considering the compulsory squads typical for 30k, footslogging slowly through the middle is not the best idea, thanks to Fury of the Legion (stationary 20-man tac blobs shoot bolters twice in one phase, killing anything they can anticipate where they move). Striking fast is more flexible, as the typical squad sizes keep the total number of units down, making it harder to react. But that's 30k, really different to playing 40k marines, even if most models/stats/weapons are the same.