Laser Vindis: worth it?

[Terminus]

 

I'm not really aboard the Deimos Vindicator hype train, either. If my meta actually calls for this weapon (so mainly AV13/14 vehicles without flare shields), I see little reason not to take laser destroyer rapiers instead. They are way more survivable and take a less precious slot.

Laser destroyer rapiers are a shorter range than the tank for starter, plus placement. 3 shots from one gun is better than 3 from 3 (some may not be able to see the target, also not mobile, short range and can be avoided) but if you prefee that, it's your choice

As for movement, sometimes opponents will hide behind scenery, and it's nice to have the option to dig them out!

I have found that a 3500pt game takes 3/3.5 hours generally. In my group we generally play 2750/3k average game. The foc becomes hard to keep To at 3500 but then we include super heavies. Anything anove that the foc goes out the window and we take minimum troops. Everyone plays how they want though!

The laser destroyer array has exactly the same stats. Its 48" range as of the latest source, Tempest. Yes, this weapon has gone through a lot of changes on AP and range, but regardless, the range is the same.

 

The 3 shots from one source argument sounds crazy to me. Rapiers are much smaller and you can fit all three in the footprint of the Vindicator. There are no additional line of sight issues, and if anything, the Vindicator is much easier to block line of sight to since it does only have a single gun. So that's a whole lot of nonsense.

 

The Vindicator does have some advantage in mobility, as it can move 6 or 12 inches and still fire one time. On the other hand, you can be stunned, can be shaken, it can be forced to snap fire which denies shooting, and if you fire three times it tries to kill itself. It has 3 hull points total, while a rapier squadron can take up to 6! wounds without losing efficacy.

 

@Bulbafist - thats a tricky one. The artillery itself doesn't get Legionnes astartes, so it doesn't get the buff. The crew do, however, so as long as they are taking shots they reduce enemy strength and use the artillery's toughness. To piggyback on this point, Alpha Legion and Raven Guard can infiltrate them, further mitigating the mobility issue.

[Brofist]

Well said Terminus. I'm with you. I do think there's merit in choosing one or the other, though. Depending on your list and how you like to play both can be good choices.

 

Vehicles are also pretty resistant to template weapons, while one vindicator can ruin a rapier battery in a single salvo. On the flip side, that same tank can get blown up from a single high strength low AP shot. We can go around in circles all day.

[Theredknight]

 

 

As I read it,

 

 

I'm not really aboard the Deimos Vindicator hype train, either. If my meta actually calls for this weapon (so mainly AV13/14 vehicles without flare shields), I see little reason not to take laser destroyer rapiers instead. They are way more survivable and take a less precious slot.

Laser destroyer rapiers are a shorter range than the tank for starter, plus placement. 3 shots from one gun is better than 3 from 3 (some may not be able to see the target, also not mobile, short range and can be avoided) but if you prefee that, it's your choice

As for movement, sometimes opponents will hide behind scenery, and it's nice to have the option to dig them out!

I have found that a 3500pt game takes 3/3.5 hours generally. In my group we generally play 2750/3k average game. The foc becomes hard to keep To at 3500 but then we include super heavies. Anything anove that the foc goes out the window and we take minimum troops. Everyone plays how they want though!

The laser destroyer array has exactly the same stats. Its 48" range as of the latest source, Tempest. Yes, this weapon has gone through a lot of changes on AP and range, but regardless, the range is the same.

The 3 shots from one source argument sounds crazy to me. Rapiers are much smaller and you can fit all three in the footprint of the Vindicator. There are no additional line of sight issues, and if anything, the Vindicator is much easier to block line of sight to since it does only have a single gun. So that's a whole lot of nonsense.

The Vindicator does have some advantage in mobility, as it can move 6 or 12 inches and still fire one time. On the other hand, you can be stunned, can be shaken, it can be forced to snap fire which denies shooting, and if you fire three times it tries to kill itself. It has 3 hull points total, while a rapier squadron can take up to 6! wounds without losing efficacy.

@Bulbafist - thats a tricky one. The artillery itself doesn't get Legionnes astartes, so it doesn't get the buff. The crew do, however, so as long as they are taking shots they reduce enemy strength and use the artillery's toughness. To piggyback on this point, Alpha Legion and Raven Guard can infiltrate them, further mitigating the mobility issue.

 

Sorry, do you have a reference for upgraded range in tempest? I don't have that book (wb and um..yawn) I have conquest, and the upgraded rapier is in the solar auxilia sheet, but not the astartes one.

 

Im not arguing with you about it, that's your opinion, personally. It has made its points back EVERY time and mostly more.

You aren't forced to roll a d6, it's an option. And occasionally you roll the 1, but hey ho. That extra shot just finished a spartan.. So good sacrifice.

Personally I hate rapier lasers, they can be avoided fairly easily (if you deploy first) and no, one gun, one line of site. 3 guns (spread over 6" minimum) is a greater scope for blocking line of site. I have played both a few times, and I found sometimes 1 gun cannot see the target.

[Terminus]

They were always clutch for me with my Renegades, and they have to use the crappy 36" AP2 version (if I'm running Vraks renegades, anyway, it's AP1 if I'm running IA13 renegades, and then back to AP2 if I want to use them from IA2 with regular guard, good job FW). Now that they are 48" AP1 and can infiltrate them with astartes crew, they seem even better. Three rapiers side by side are 4.5" but fair enough on the LOS issue, as you wouldn't want to cluster them like that for templates.

 

Again, if you review my earlier posts in this thread, I don't hate the Vindicator. I just don't see enough Land Raiders or predator swarms to dedicate an invaluable heavy support slot for hunting them, but YMMV. If I'm dealing with AV11-12, I reach for Predators, Javelins, Deredeo or Sicaran Battle Tank. Anything heavier, and I want a Sicaran Venator, graviton, or chainfists. But it definitely has a place as a cheaper alternative for smaller games to the Venator, much like Predators/Battle tanks are cheaper alternatives to Deredeo, and the Scorpius is a (much!) cheaper alternative to the Leviathan.

 

A Sicaran battle tank, Vindicator tank destroyer, and Scorpius whirlwind is only 380 points! Round it to 400 with a siege shield and a couple of dozer blades, and I am hard pressed to think of a more economic and potent heavy support package for lower point games. It's almost as much a no brainer as a hydra squadron and 2 manticores was a no brainer for 5th edition Imperial Guard.

 

Anyway, regarding the rapier destroyer the Tempest stats are in the Militia section, so I guess if we want to be pedantic about it, it doesn't apply to the Legion rapier. 40K is a pedantic game, so I get the argument there, but I've never run across a 30K gamer that would argue for the Legions to get the K-mart version of laser destroyers while the Solar Auxilia and random subhuman savages get the primo stuff. Again, YMMV.

[Theredknight]

I don't understand it, but some people just run with whats in Black and white, guess they don't like their transport shot from range etc. Id allow it but, then im not in charge of everyone's game.

 

I love the cheesewind! Nuncios are always worth the extra for the hitting power.

I take quad mortars for my platforms, a deredeo and a las vindi. Sometimes il take 2 dakka preds or swap out for something I need.

Il also take a contemptor with 2 grav fists and a Mortis for rending. A good shooty base.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Twin Deredeos with Aiolos and a Vindi Las Destroyer.

 

Remove 3 Medium to Light tanks and 5 MEQ Astartes a turn. Needs some Terminator Help, take Seekers in a Deredeo, or Dreadnoughts.

[Terminus]

Krios Venator, Thanatar, and Myrmidons with Graviton Imploders!

 

Whoops, wrong army. :P

[Sheesh Mode]

It is dependent upon the list including the unit, the list your opponent is fielding, the terrain you are both deploying upon, the nature of the deployment, the mission, or missions, and the amount of time available to both players. Hence my contention with any claim that any unit or upgrade is an auto-take. Warhammer 40,000 is far, far to varied and nuanced for such a claim to be accurate save within specific, contextual, confines. 

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Question: Why do so many people provide Spartans as an example of an effective target? I would assume - given the fact that so many lists seem purpose built to destroy them - that they are a rare and surprising unit seen on the battlefield.