marti350 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Everything in platoons is an infantry squad. Except the 10 man sub unit is called an Infantry Squad, the special weapons are called Special Weapons Squad, and the heavy weapons team is called a Heavy Weapons Squad. So because the rule directly references Infantry Squad you'll get RAW people who won't want to let you play it the RAI way. And there aren't enough people around me to just not play those people Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenricusTyranicus Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Everything in platoons is an infantry squad. Except the 10 man sub unit is called an Infantry Squad, the special weapons are called Special Weapons Squad, and the heavy weapons team is called a Heavy Weapons Squad. So because the rule directly references Infantry Squad you'll get RAW people who won't want to let you play it the RAI way. And there aren't enough people around me to just not play those people I actually live in Michigan too ;) so we can play a RAI game sometime. I think it's a big enough issue that we might see some interpretation emails and such. Frankly, the formation is near unplayable with the RAW interpretation, which is obviously no good for GW's sales. And if your opponent won't accept interpretation emails and the web bundle evidence, frankly, you probably shouldn't play them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Not bad, gives us an idea of what we may expect for the new codex... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mertbl Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Outflanking armored sentinels with the ability to give themselves orders could get nasty. Also the thought of just spamming tank commanders is intriguing. Might not do well but itd be fun to put down 5 units of tank commanders and their sidekick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I have a perverse urge ti go and buy three baneblade kits now... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232605 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 That's perfectly normal shandwen... I was thinking about the artillery one, no mention of full squadrons? It could be quite fun to throw some pie plates with orders about :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truesight Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Has anyone tried making an army list from this? The only two ways to start are either 1 CCS in Chimera, 3x 5 squad infantry platoons with PCS' (165 models) 3 Scout sentinels.Or 1 CCS in Chimera, Enginseers, Tank Commander + Bodyguard, 3 more Russes. Lets say I take the tanks, I now have CCS, 2x Melta, Chimera Tank commander Vanquisher + battle tank Eradicator Battle Tank Demolisher This needs veterans to do damage... so I take the veteran formation. -Another CCS in chimera- 3x vets in chimeras, 2 with melta 1 with plasma. Hellhound because tax. Now I need warm bodies to protect this armour, so Emperors shield platoon? I guess? 5x platoon squads, autocannons and flamers, commissar, scout sentinel. We're already over 2000 points for a kind of hodgepodge of units with kinda bad rules. CCS 2x melta w/ chimera CCS 2x melta w/ chimera Tank commander + bodygaurd Infantry platoon w/ 5x squads, autocannons and flamers 3x mounted veterans Hellhound Scout Sentinel 3x Russes. That's without even using the Emperors Shield Infantry Company, which is 1300-1400 points before any auxillary units. I'm.... not sure this is usable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phubar Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I think,like some of us, that the emperors shield formation must have at least 5 squads of any type. First because the bundle has 1 pcs, 2 ,inf squads and 2 hwt, second because a formation with 165 guardsmen brings too much minis on the board and leaves little custom options for the list. We will see a faq soon, i hope! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mertbl Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Your battle commander is a ccs or a tank commander. No need to take both. Has anyone tried making an army list from this? The only two ways to start are either 1 CCS in Chimera, 3x 5 squad infantry platoons with PCS' (165 models) 3 Scout sentinels. Or 1 CCS in Chimera, Enginseers, Tank Commander + Bodyguard, 3 more Russes. Lets say I take the tanks, I now have CCS, 2x Melta, Chimera Tank commander Vanquisher + battle tank Eradicator Battle Tank Demolisher This needs veterans to do damage... so I take the veteran formation. -Another CCS in chimera- 3x vets in chimeras, 2 with melta 1 with plasma. Hellhound because tax. Now I need warm bodies to protect this armour, so Emperors shield platoon? I guess? 5x platoon squads, autocannons and flamers, commissar, scout sentinel. We're already over 2000 points for a kind of hodgepodge of units with kinda bad rules. CCS 2x melta w/ chimera CCS 2x melta w/ chimera Tank commander + bodygaurd Infantry platoon w/ 5x squads, autocannons and flamers 3x mounted veterans Hellhound Scout Sentinel 3x Russes. That's without even using the Emperors Shield Infantry Company, which is 1300-1400 points before any auxillary units. I'm.... not sure this is usable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truesight Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Your battle commander is a ccs or a tank commander. No need to take both. Each formation would need to be fulfilled individually surely? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabryel Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Yay! Orders for Artillery! To bad Wyverns are already twin-linked and ignore cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232680 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I was thinking of a couple of Bassies ;) Now I've had time to digest they seem pretty nice in places but nothing to get that excited over. Perhaps the true meat will come with the new codex... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mertbl Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 1 battle commander per detachment. Then core choices per battle commander and then auxilleries per core choice. You also need a ccs or tank commander when each core or aux choice calls for one. Your battle commander is a ccs or a tank commander. No need to take both. Each formation would need to be fulfilled individually surely? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabryel Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Okay, aftter studying it a bit some questions came to my mind: In the Battle Group Command: Can I take the tank commander solo? Or do I still need the second tank? Can only take Pask in the Battle Group Command? For the other formations there is no exception given. Are those stand alone formations? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Ignores Cover, Twin-Linked Manticires and Bassies sound like a tonne of fun! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I think,like some of us, that the emperors shield formation must have at least 5 squads of any type. First because the bundle has 1 pcs, 2 ,inf squads and 2 hwt, second because a formation with 165 guardsmen brings too much minis on the board and leaves little custom options for the list. We will see a faq soon, i hope! The emperors shield formation seems a little cubersome for a core choice... 150 infantry min? Wouldn't it be 80 infantry min? You can field a platoon with 25 infantry, so three platoons plus the ccs makes 80 edit, nvm, I see the restriction saying it requires at least 5 infantry squads, but I think that was intended to mean 5 of any of the options. Because the GW bundle for that formation has 2 HWT 2 Infantry squads and one PCS. You can't have more than 5 infantry squads in a platoon anyway so the at least part only makes sense with my interpretation :cuss, people!!! Words mean stuff, and they aren't interchangeable. A HWT is a single base with an oversized boom-stick and a two man team on it. A HWS is a squad consisting of three HWTs. In this particular context, it's easy to understand that you mean squads when you say teams, but it's usually not nearly as clear. For the love of the emprah, say what you mean and mean what you say! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4232821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phubar Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I think,like some of us, that the emperors shield formation must have at least 5 squads of any type. First because the bundle has 1 pcs, 2 ,inf squads and 2 hwt, second because a formation with 165 guardsmen brings too much minis on the board and leaves little custom options for the list. We will see a faq soon, i hope! The emperors shield formation seems a little cubersome for a core choice... 150 infantry min? Wouldn't it be 80 infantry min? You can field a platoon with 25 infantry, so three platoons plus the ccs makes 80 edit, nvm, I see the restriction saying it requires at least 5 infantry squads, but I think that was intended to mean 5 of any of the options. Because the GW bundle for that formation has 2 HWT 2 Infantry squads and one PCS. You can't have more than 5 infantry squads in a platoon anyway so the at least part only makes sense with my interpretation :cuss, people!!! Words mean stuff, and they aren't interchangeable. A HWT is a single base with an oversized boom-stick and a two man team on it. A HWS is a squad consisting of three HWTs. In this particular context, it's easy to understand that you mean squads when you say teams, but it's usually not nearly as clear. For the love of the emprah, say what you mean and mean what you say! Thatsa little fussy reply. You are right HWS are squads made of 3 HWT buy man, try to understand what people is saying! We used hwt in place of hws but the meaning of the posts is clear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4233004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Arrgghh. I keep list building based on these new formations and I keep getting worse lists than I was making. The new armored formation is worse than a steel host, imo, and the ogryn formation is much worse than the rampart detachment. The only benefit I see to using this formation setup is the infantry based army that is completely swarm the enemy based. Tempting, but that is a lot of models to paint and will take me a long time to get toward. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4233065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Everything in platoons is an infantry squad. Except the 10 man sub unit is called an Infantry Squad, the special weapons are called Special Weapons Squad, and the heavy weapons team is called a Heavy Weapons Squad. So because the rule directly references Infantry Squad you'll get RAW people who won't want to let you play it the RAI way. And there aren't enough people around me to just not play those people Infantry squad is not capitalized in the rules, so it's not referring to a specific unit type. A Platoon Command Squad is an infantry squad. A Special Weapon Squad is an infantry squad. Look at the formation on GW's site. Anyway, if you play in a book-thumping RAW environment, you probably won't have much fun with Guard anyway. It's like kicking someone when they are down. All these formations are mediocre because they grant slight buffs to units who under perform to begin with. The nastier formations instead grant large buffs to already solid units. Sure, you get a couple of bonuses for your Leman Russ tanks, but you know what destroys Leman Russ tanks? The Tau with their "deep strike with no scatter or just shoot you in the ass from the front somehow and everyone can get tank hunter" shenanigans, or Raven Guard with their "assaulting from deep strike while you fire at the darkness" shenanigans, or the White Scars with their "we're in assault range by turn 1 with all our scouting bikes" shenanigans. You know, everything else that came out in these campaign books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4233089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenricusTyranicus Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Arrgghh. I keep list building based on these new formations and I keep getting worse lists than I was making. The new armored formation is worse than a steel host, imo, and the ogryn formation is much worse than the rampart detachment. The only benefit I see to using this formation setup is the infantry based army that is completely swarm the enemy based. Tempting, but that is a lot of models to paint and will take me a long time to get toward. Emperor's Shield Platoon is a nice, handy allied formation. I'll probably take 5 infantry squads, blob them up, stick a HWT in each, 5 grenade launchers, a couple Vox casters, and somehow get a chimera in there for the Platoon Command Squad to follow and order "Fire and Advance". Then I can take a Battlegroup command by itself, give it a chimera, which the PCS can take, while the Company Command Squad sits back with a couple HWS and a Master of Ordnance to order them with some Ignores Cover and such. Should come in at 500 points or so, leaving plenty of space for my Black Templars. Also, I think these formations will be more useful after the codex update. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4233113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Arrgghh. I keep list building based on these new formations and I keep getting worse lists than I was making. The new armored formation is worse than a steel host, imo, and the ogryn formation is much worse than the rampart detachment. The only benefit I see to using this formation setup is the infantry based army that is completely swarm the enemy based. Tempting, but that is a lot of models to paint and will take me a long time to get toward. I don't know about being wore than Steel Host. For every tank except the Executioner, I'd rather have +1BS than preferred enemy. The Enginseer is also a smaller tax than the Hydra, even though I'd be tempted to put him in a Trojan Support Vehicle. Pask in Punisher + Executioner, 2 solo Vanquishers, and then another Punisher or Executioner. Seems not awful. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4233126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulrik_Ironfist Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 I really like that Airborne formation. The no scatter is awesome, as well as the reserve manipulation. Pair it with a Militarum Tempestus platoon, and that's a sick combo. Especially given that I only have 2 valkyries and a vendetta. Couple those two formations with an Emperor's Shield infantry platoon (going off of the squad composition of the bundle). Unfortunately it looks like you have to take a core in order to take the auxiliary formations, as the auxiliary is worded as 0-3 per core, which means I'm shy 2 more platoons, and a sentinel. But that's not surprising given how the decurion style detachments work for other armies. The increase in orders range is nice. 24" with a 3d6 take the two lowest for orders is brutal. the Fire and advance order for the ESIP, is also brutal with a HWS, as it counts as being stationary for firing, and you get to issue this order in addition to any other orders you issue. Also, as long as a unit is within 9" of the sentinel you get MTC, which is nice for an infantry heavy army like mine. These are the sorts of things we've been needing, to stay competitive. Though I do have to say we need some other things too, but this is a start. It looks like I know what I need to buy, for my army. 3 more CS boxes, 3 more IS boxes, and another armored sentinel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4233144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buster Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Is it possible to take any of these formations as stand alone units? Without using the command structure? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4233167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Infantry squad is not capitalized in the rules Yes it is. And all the options you can include in an Infantry Platoon are unit type infantry, so why would they specify that? They could have just said "squads" in lower case. Hardly the first time the people putting the bundles together have ballsed it up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4233212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminus Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 That's perfectly normal shandwen... I was thinking about the artillery one, no mention of full squadrons? It could be quite fun to throw some pie plates with orders about Nope, don't have to take full squadrons, just 2 squadrons of any number of Wyverns/Hydras/Basilisks, and 1 of Manticore/Deathstrike. So I'd take a pair of Basilisks, a pair of Wyverns, and a Manticore. Basilisks and Manticore get the orders, Wyverns already got all the re-rolls you will ever need. The Enginseer isn't a terrible tax, as he lets you split fire with the squadrons and may repair a hull-point here or there. You could also bring a Trojan Support Vehicle for 35 points to give one of the tanks preferred enemy. Infantry squad is not capitalized in the rules Yes it is. And all the options you can include in an Infantry Platoon are unit type infantry, so why would they specify that? They could have just said "squads" in lower case. Hardly the first time the people putting the bundles together have ballsed it up. I stand corrected, although the rule is written very strangely. "At least 5 infantry squads"? There is a max of 5 :( Okay, so no one will probably take that particular core choice ever. The only benefit is being able to order all three platoons FRFSRF from one commander, and they all have to target the same unit (have fun getting 150 dudes within range of a single unit, LOL). As an auxiliary choice, it's still pretty expensive but not the worst way to run tons of dudes. Platoon Command Squad - vox, 3 flamers - 50 pts 3 infantry squads with 3x flamers, 3x autocannons, 1 vox - 200 pts 2 infantry squads, 1/2 with krak grenades, sgts with meltabombs, 2x meltaguns, 1x vox, commissar w/mb - 175 pts Armoured Sentinel with plasma cannon - 50 pts 475 points total So you get a pseudo-relentless autocannon unit and can still issue another standard order to the tank/monster-hunting unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316335-guard-montka-formations/page/2/#findComment-4233254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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