Guard Mont'ka Formations!

[Frater Cornelius]

Is it just me or are some of those prohibitively expensive? This is basically encouraging spam armies at higher point games. Such a shame, because some of those Formations, like the Psyker one, are so awesome. As it stands, it seems like another bad case of Shield of Baal. Alright but forgettable, but really frustrating because it was literally a few numbers away from greatness. Really, GW? Again? I hate that company right now.

[march10k]

I think,like some of us, that the emperors shield formation must have at least 5 squads of any type.

First because the bundle has 1 pcs, 2 ,inf squads and 2 hwt, second because a formation with 165 guardsmen brings too much minis on the board and leaves little custom options for the list.

We will see a faq soon, i hope!

The emperors shield formation seems a little cubersome for a core choice... 150 infantry min?

Wouldn't it be 80 infantry min? You can field a platoon with 25 infantry, so three platoons plus the ccs makes 80

edit, nvm, I see the restriction saying it requires at least 5 infantry squads, but I think that was intended to mean 5 of any of the options. Because the GW bundle for that formation has 2 HWT 2 Infantry squads and one PCS. You can't have more than 5 infantry squads in a platoon anyway so the at least part only makes sense with my interpretation

:cuss, people!!! Words mean stuff, and they aren't interchangeable. A HWT is a single base with an oversized boom-stick and a two man team on it. A HWS is a squad consisting of three HWTs. In this particular context, it's easy to understand that you mean squads when you say teams, but it's usually not nearly as clear. For the love of the emprah, say what you mean and mean what you say!

Thatsa little fussy reply.

You are right HWS are squads made of 3 HWT buy man, try to understand what people is saying! We used hwt in place of hws but the meaning of the posts is clear.

Oh...right...it was clear, wasn't it? My bad. See where I highlighted that exact thing in my previous text?

What I'm saying is that the habit of using HWT and HWS interchangeably is a bad one, please fix yourself, it's been known to cause massive chaos in the past where both HWTs and HWSs were under discussion in the same thread and nobody could figure out who was talking about what because of sloppy language.

[Terminus]

Is it just me or are some of those prohibitively expensive? This is basically encouraging spam armies at higher point games. Such a shame, because some of those Formations, like the Psyker one, are so awesome. As it stands, it seems like another bad case of Shield of Baal. Alright but forgettable, but really frustrating because it was literally a few numbers away from greatness. Really, GW? Again? I hate that company right now.

Yes, most, if not all, encourage some sort of spam. Without knowing the specific rules for Cadians, the infantry formations all seem pretty bad. Move through cover from supporting sentinels, rerolling 1s to hit with lasguns, and an order to move heavy weapons (something we sort of could do before by shooting and then running) are interesting, but none of that is really worth giving up objective secured on your giant infantry blobs. The Sentinel formation lets you outflank armoured sentinels, but who wants to take 6 of them? The abhuman stuff... ugh.

 

Still, overall it's a net positive for Guard options.

 

The flier squadron will probably get more attention from Skitarii than the Guard, but that's fine for me since I have both. :P

 

The artillery taking orders stuff you could already do cheaper and better with weapon platforms, but it's a nice buff to those old basilisks and manticores.

 

The veteran company is a pretty good way to use those old 5th edition mechanized vets, as even the command squad gets objective secured, and Preferred Enemy for anything within 6" of objectives is a solid buff all around. The tax is a hellhound though.

 

There is also a buff for Stormtroopers in there, although again you lose objective secured if you were running tempestus before. Running a company command squad and 2-3 stormtrooper squads seems a pretty decent formation. You get access to the better orders in AM over MT, with master vox net you can reliably pass them even without voxes, can re-roll 1s on hotshot lasguns and that command squad can issue 3 orders out to 24" (cheaper Creed, basically). 

 

The tank formation is a lateral move from Steel Host, but you also now have the option of just spamming tank commander duos who reliably pass orders. Even if your meta doesn't allow multiple instances of the same formation, you can take Pask+buddy and another tank commander in a CAD, then attach a tank commander from a Cadian battle company. 6 tanks that can all split fire, 3 of them at BS4 (and Pask's squadron with preferred enemy), and you've not even touched your heavy support slots yet.

 

So overall, a few new ways to run some old stuff. Nothing too exciting, we remain in an older edition. The upcoming codex should hopefully resolve many of the current issues.

[Captain Caine 24th]

I agree. This very much reminds me of Shield of Baal--there are a lot of exciting tidbits at first glance, with sizeable limitations on a deeper reading. im not too keen on getting rerolls only if three squads shoot at the same target. In the same way, preferred enemy only within 6" of an objective is underwhelming. At this point it's not all bad. A tweak in rules or psychic disciplines and wyrdvaynes could get really interesting. Or just think if baneblade variants went down to 300pts. I'm going to say it's a step in the right direction. I still hope if we see "Codex Astra Militarum: Cadians," we'll see other units come in.

[Terminus]

Baneblades do need to be like 350 points when max optioned out with 4 sponsons, their current cost is silly.

 

As for Wyrdvanes, I just see a summoning circle. 3x5 wyrdvanes+commissar, lvl 2 primaris = 330 points. Buy three transports, or for bonus points, model a skyshield landing pad as an actual summoning circle, and plant them in the middle. 8 warpcharges right there, now take 4 heralds of Tzeench. We're looking at about 800 points spent total now depending on upgrades, spend the rest on whatever you want. Proceed to go to town with up to 20 bonus warpcharges.

 

Thank the Emperor the Imperial Guard had the foresight to implant controls into their battle psykers, so they won't be summoning any daemons on their own.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Is it just me or are some of those prohibitively expensive? This is basically encouraging spam armies at higher point games. Such a shame, because some of those Formations, like the Psyker one, are so awesome. As it stands, it seems like another bad case of Shield of Baal. Alright but forgettable, but really frustrating because it was literally a few numbers away from greatness. Really, GW? Again? I hate that company right now.

Yes, most, if not all, encourage some sort of spam. Without knowing the specific rules for Cadians, the infantry formations all seem pretty bad. Move through cover from supporting sentinels, rerolling 1s to hit with lasguns, and an order to move heavy weapons (something we sort of could do before by shooting and then running) are interesting, but none of that is really worth giving up objective secured on your giant infantry blobs. The Sentinel formation lets you outflank armoured sentinels, but who wants to take 6 of them? The abhuman stuff... ugh.

Um, I'd take 6 Armored sentinels that can outflank. That would be fun.

The flier squadron will probably get more attention from Skitarii than the Guard, but that's fine for me since I have both.

I think you might be forgetting the obvious synergy with Scions. You could either use an allied detachment, a combined arms detachment, or a platoon formation of them. It seems pretty obvious to me how well those would work together.

There is also a buff for Stormtroopers in there, although again you lose objective secured if you were running tempestus before. Running a company command squad and 2-3 stormtrooper squads seems a pretty decent formation. You get access to the better orders in AM over MT, with master vox net you can reliably pass them even without voxes, can re-roll 1s on hotshot lasguns and that command squad can issue 3 orders out to 24" (cheaper Creed, basically).

I don't see where you're getting that AM orders are better than MT orders for stormies. I just don't see that. AM orders are good, but the MT orders are a bit more versatile. I do see the benefit of the 24" order range though, paired with the extra order.

Yes, most, if not all, encourage some sort of spam. Without knowing the specific rules for Cadians, the infantry formations all seem pretty bad. Move through cover from supporting sentinels, rerolling 1s to hit with lasguns, and an order to move heavy weapons (something we sort of could do before by shooting and then running) are interesting, but none of that is really worth giving up objective secured on your giant infantry blobs.

The infantry formations offer more than just the semi relentless heavy weapons, it's the ability to issue that order in addition to another order, something PC's can't do (normally), as they lack the senior officer rule. The MTC makes them better at footslogging, and the sentinel(s) give(s) them support. Is it worth giving up ObSec? I don't know, I'll have to give it a try.

The formations, if they follow the conventions of other decurion style detachments, should be usable as stand alone formations so they might still be useful.

[Emicus]

'woot I can finally have an all tank army aside from armoured fist'

​Except the minimum is 7 tanks, whereas 4/7 are command & wingmen.

 

AND THERES A FILTHY FOOTSLOGGER, MAKE IT GO AWAY, EMPEROR PLEASE!

[Lucien Eilam]

I stand corrected, although the rule is written very strangely. "At least 5 infantry squads"? There is a max of 5

If they just said "The Infantry Platoon must consist of 5 Infantry Squads", that would preclude adding Heavy Weapon Teams, Conscript etc. This wording allows it to consist of "at least" the maximum number of Infantry Squads, at most the maximum number of Infantry Squads plus all of the optional support squads.

Awkwardly worded, but then everything about Guard is awkward.

[march10k]

Baneblades do need to be like 350 points when max optioned out with 4 sponsons, their current cost is silly.

I don't disagree that they're overcosted...350 might be a bit low, though. 50 points per sponson set, when you consider that you get 2 lascannons and 2 twinlinked heavy bolters, all four weapons being immune from "weapon destroyed" and being independently targetable...it's a good deal. Stripping those out, you're left with 250 points for the basic tank...If that's a fair price, then a land raider needs to be about 170...which means a russ should be about 110...which means a guardsman can't cost more than 2 points...Hey, GW, we figured out how you can make us buy more stuff...just scale down the points cost of everything

Seriously, though...the base price of each baneblade variant could come down about 70 , with the upgrade costs staying the same, or bring the base cost down 90 and bump the sponson sets to 60 each. And boost the points cost of a knight by 25-30 points

[HenricusTyranicus]

I disagree that wyverns can't benefit much from the orders....granting them pinning is really nice. Think Dawn of War, where you'd get the enemy in your kill zone, then keep them there with grenade launchers, which luckily also keep them from fighting back. I've been looking for a good pinning weapon for some time now. 

[Terminus]

Things that I target with Wyverns tend to not be alive afterwards to be pinned.

 

And Knights are already quite expensive for what they do. Eldar are the only ones with criminally undercosted big walker options. But baneblades are not even as good as a knight, so they shouldn't cost more than one. Plus their pricing is all over the place. At least in Solar Auxilia (the latest source if i'm not mistaken), they cut the sponsons down to 50 points per pair, rather than 100 like in the older publications. And having to give up a set of sponsons for front AV14, on a tank that size? Really?

 

Base cost 300, each set of sponsons 50, call it a day.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I stand corrected, although the rule is written very strangely. "At least 5 infantry squads"? There is a max of 5

If they just said "The Infantry Platoon must consist of 5 Infantry Squads", that would preclude adding Heavy Weapon Teams, Conscript etc. This wording allows it to consist of "at least" the maximum number of Infantry Squads, at most the maximum number of Infantry Squads plus all of the optional support squads.

Awkwardly worded, but then everything about Guard is awkward.

I'm in agreement with your point.

What I disagree with is how I see this is intended. Any way you cut it it seems that it encourages spam.

Based off of that interpretation, that would make it the most expensive core formation to date (at around 1020 points base). Which would make it unusable for smaller games, and would put the box set neatly out of the range of many beginning players (who are the primary market GW is after). All other core formations are under or at 500 pts base, so this would be useless at those points levels. The ES IP, comes in at 320 points base, which puts it in the same range as most core formations.

If you just went with the interpretation that you need only 5 squads of any kind in the platoon (working off the base of 1 CS and 2 IS), it only trims it down to 870 points base using nothing but IS's.

I trimmed it further by using scout sentinels, which only cuts 15 points, down to 855 points. Now these are just base points levels, and fully minimized.

Even Minimized, the Emperor's Fist Armored Company is 820 points.

Now, it can be argued that guard isn't really a starter army, since our basic troops shooting isn't the best, and the lists need synergy to really work well. Still, the guard can't be that army that has to play 2000+ points in order for a player to use what they want.

[HenricusTyranicus]

Maybe in the next codex our guard squad size will get dropped to 5? Let's bear in mind that these formations are REALLY written for our next codex, not for this one. That could make quite the difference. 

[Captain Caine 24th]

After sleeping on it, I agree. I'm really thinking that the next codex (with various online only datasheets) could be crucial in determining some competitive lists. Consistent with other armies' recent releases with squadron benefits these formations could really sart to stack rules (e.g. 3 hellounds get a firestorm and a strength bonus, 3 Lemans get preferred enemy, vet squads get retooled doctrines, conscripts regenerate, etc). Sure this is wishlisting, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think IG/AM will compare to other armies getting squadron benefits. For now I'm going to wait on sentinels (one of the few absent units in my massive, sprawling guard army). In a different way the new codex will hopefully resolve some syntax and semantics issues regarding infantry squads.For now the design choices seem to facilitate greater movement and shooting, (or going to ground) through a greater number and range of orders along with more commanders. It also looks like there's some strangely CC oriented wargear and rules. My guess is that this fits a fluff/lore view of countless guard charging forward with reckless abandon, unphased by mass casualties. Read as: "Glory to the first man to die!" I think GW wants you to make that hopeless charge into bloodthirster. My hope is that the rules design doesn't try to do two things at once and fail at both.

[MagicHat]

'woot I can finally have an all tank army aside from armoured fist'

 

​Except the minimum is 7 tanks, whereas 4/7 are command & wingmen.

 

AND THERES A FILTHY FOOTSLOGGER, MAKE IT GO AWAY, EMPEROR PLEASE!

 

You could take the formation without being part of the Battle Group. 

Also, please don't be mean to the Enginseer.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

My army is built around infantry and the units to support them. I'm a bit disappointed that there's no mech option for the Infantry platoon. It has to footslog which I'm a bit upset about, since I really don't have a good way to use my chimeras otherwise. I mean I suppose I could use one for the CCS, and then use one with a mech platoon of stormies (chimera for the MTCS and taurox primes for two stormie squads and a chimera for the third). I really feel that the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company should have been 1-3 ESIP with a CCS, rather than just 3. 1 ESIP and a CCS comes in at around 375 some points, base (with scout sentinel). I have a feeling they didn't do the calculations to see just how many points you'd need to field such a massive formation. Let's also not forget how many models that is. 55 infantry models per platoon, so that's 170 infantry models and 3 walkers, for a sum total of 173 models total. That's a lot to move around the board. Oh and you can't take dedicated transports.

 

Good news though, you can stick the infantry in the flyer formation and use the sentinels for auger arrays and grav chute them in turn 2 on 3-27 cover camping scout sentinels with camo netting and smoke launchers. Stack 3 CCS with the command section and the CCS in the infantry company for 4 officers of the fleet for auto reserves turn 2, and then drop non scattering massed infantry turn 2 and watch the opponent cry, as you then spam FRFSRF and drown him in saves. 

 

I don't like how the army is being set up for spamming certain units, as it tends to make newer guard players like myself wince.

[Emicus]

 

'woot I can finally have an all tank army aside from armoured fist'

 

​Except the minimum is 7 tanks, whereas 4/7 are command & wingmen.

 

AND THERES A FILTHY FOOTSLOGGER, MAKE IT GO AWAY, EMPEROR PLEASE!

 

You could take the formation without being part of the Battle Group. 

Also, please don't be mean to the Enginseer.

 

​I'll be as mean to the enginseer as I gakking well please. Support elements can stay back and not get themselves murdered. Sure I can take the formation by itself, but there's no way shape or form I can get away with a 100% tank army thanks to that little $%!!@.

 

​Thanks for making a new kit for those who want the model GW but there's no need to choke people with him <_<

 

​Edit: maybe a Sentinel army on the other hand....

[Emicus]

 

Good news though, you can stick the infantry in the flyer formation and use the sentinels for auger arrays and grav chute them in turn 2 on 3-27 cover camping scout sentinels with camo netting and smoke launchers. Stack 3 CCS with the command section and the CCS in the infantry company for 4 officers of the fleet for auto reserves turn 2, and then drop non scattering massed infantry turn 2 and watch the opponent cry, as you then spam FRFSRF and drown him in saves. 

 

Dont the flyer formation get no-scatter gravchute insertions anyway?

[Emicus]

The wording here seems suspect. For each command choice you "may" include up to three core choices. implying you don't need to do that at all, and just build a list around the command choice, willy-nilly. One of those RAI/RAW things, eh?

 

Company Command Squads for days, nay- weeks! Months! THE ENTIRE SIEGE! 25 barebones CCS @ 1500 points.

Or perhaps take a couple Vendettas from the flyer formation and zoom around throwing HQ's onto objectives.

[Goonbandito]

The wording here seems suspect. For each command choice you "may" include up to three core choices. implying you don't need to do that at all, and just build a list around the command choice, willy-nilly. One of those RAI/RAW things, eh?

Company Command Squads for days, nay- weeks! Months! THE ENTIRE SIEGE! 25 barebones CCS @ 1500 points.

Or perhaps take a couple Vendettas from the flyer formation and zoom around throwing HQ's onto objectives.

23 CCS, all with Masters of Ordinance attached to them, is 1840pts. Let the enemy enjoy 23 Basilisk Barrages each turn

[Emicus]

The wording here seems suspect. For each command choice you "may" include up to three core choices. implying you don't need to do that at all, and just build a list around the command choice, willy-nilly. One of those RAI/RAW things, eh?

Company Command Squads for days, nay- weeks! Months! THE ENTIRE SIEGE! 25 barebones CCS @ 1500 points.

Or perhaps take a couple Vendettas from the flyer formation and zoom around throwing HQ's onto objectives.

23 CCS, all with Masters of Ordinance attached to them, is 1840pts. Let the enemy enjoy 23 Basilisk Barrages each turn

​Now we're cooking with charcoal.

[march10k]

And Knights are already quite expensive for what they do. Eldar are the only ones with criminally undercosted big walker options. But baneblades are not even as good as a knight, so they shouldn't cost more than one. Plus their pricing is all over the place. At least in Solar Auxilia (the latest source if i'm not mistaken), they cut the sponsons down to 50 points per pair, rather than 100 like in the older publications. And having to give up a set of sponsons for front AV14, on a tank that size? Really?

 

Base cost 300, each set of sponsons 50, call it a day.

 

That's a 150 point haircut...great googly-moogly!  ~450 base, depending on the variant is a bit much, but 300?  That's what a TU costs...Let's go 375 with 60 point sponson pairs. 

 

I would dispute that superheavy tanks are not as good as knights.  They're shooty instead of fighty, but with up to nine heavy and one primary weapon, all independently targetable, plus AV14/13/12, they're brutal...plus they have 9HP vs 6.  A knight that runs up on a baneblade and starts hacking at it certainly wins that fight, but against a third party, the fully optioned baneblade has far higher damage output. 

 

In one game against ravenwing and GKTs (it was a one-off at the LGS where people were encouraged to bring the cheese and unbound penalties were waived...I played a battleforged IG list), my shadowsword all by itself caused my opponent to concede after 1.5 turns, obliterating ten paladins and twelve bikes while the rest of my army sat in bleachers and cheered.  That's anecdotal, of course, but I venture to say that even  TWO knights would have had trouble killing all of that in two turns.

[Truesight]

Cadian Warlord traits from Mont'ka: http://i.imgur.com/T738qS7.jpg

 

Translation from German:

1 warlord gets zealot
2 +2 bs warlord, +1 bs to modells in his unit
3 once per game warlord can do a artillery strike like the master of ordinance does
4 friendly units that are part of a cadian army contingent do not do morals test for getting 25% or more casualities , while being within 12 inch of your warlord
5 warlord gains special rule Voice of command if warlord already has this skill he can give one additional order every turn
6 friendly character models that are part of a cadian contingent always must give and accept challenges in melee if possible. if there are more than one such models in any given melee you can choose which one does so.  These models, while fighting in a challenge, may reroll missed to hit and to wound rolls.

 

Not sure if I'd pick them to be honest.

[librisrouge]

I wouldn't. Both the standard IG and the strategic are much better. The BS one tempts me but it isn't enough by itself.

[Truesight]

That 6th one actually hurts you.  Chaos players hate that rule, and have way more killy characters that are less vital to supporting their squads...