Guard Mont'ka Formations!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

 

2) There isn't a lot that Space Marines bring to the table that guard don't. Sure there's grav, but the Guard has other ways to deal with MC's. 

As a Guard/Marine player, I would seriously challenge this assertion. Agree with most everything else though. 

 

Space Wolves would offer some serious close combat support, by tying up the enemy's assault units, blood angels can do it too, but not as well as the wolves. Codex marines bring lots of squadroned up goodness, like ven dreads and good buffs for tank squadrons, but there are a few issues in that our tanks are better, and our infantry is cheaper. We can get 2 plasma cannon Armored sentinels on the field for what it costs to field one ven dread. I'd rather have the dreads to support my troops advancing, and Space wolves gives me a pretty damn good formation to do it (brethren of the fell handed), but it ends up at a sizable chunk of my army. Now Space marines have stormtalon gunships which are amazing air to ground fliers, and the Raven Guard Raptor Wing is a pretty good, but none of these things really needs to be in a guard list, unless you fluff it that way. Not to mention that space marines tend to be expensive, points wise, and the strength of the guard is our ability to bring sheer numbers to the fight. 

 

Like I said, grav and close combat ability are the only things that space marines offer over the guard. So best idea is use a guard list with a Skyhammer Assault force alpha strike. But again that's WAAC, and I don't play tournaments, because that's where fun goes to die.

[librisrouge]

We've discussed podded guard in other topics, but I'll give you the short version.

 

2) There isn't a lot that Space Marines bring to the table that guard don't. Sure there's grav, but the Guard has other ways to deal with MC's. 

I'm going to have to agree with the challenge on that topic. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong but MCs are the bane of my existence in way that they were never when I played marines. Marines have melee, meaning full melee, and other options that really help to take the bite out of MCs. I'm left with spaming plasmaguns whenever I can because ordinance doesn't cut it and a lot of the other options are over priced and situational. I wish lascannons were more helpful but fielding them in any real numbers is way too points heavy and still limited by BS3 in a world where the enemy is in your face on turn 2, if not earlier.

[HenricusTyranicus]

I find Melee based Black Templars to be a Godsend in a marine army. Here's a couple reasons why:

 

1. Close Combat abilities.

   Most armies will destroy guard in melee combat. By deploy my marines just a ahead of my guard, I make sure assault HAS to go through all of my crusader squads before they can do anything to my guardsmen, who, as a plus, gain a 5+ cover save. Even better, Ministorum priests in a Crusader Squad. Literally one of the toughest units in the game to shift if rerolling armor saves, and one of the most brutal in assault if rerolling to wound.

 

2. Techmarine boosting cover

  There is little as satisfying as running 2+cover save vets.

 

3. Rhinos

  I agree that pods aren't terribly fluffy for guardsmen, although it can be made to work. But Rhinos I find to be a much better transport for Guardsmen than a Chimera, because at 35 points they are viable to use on a single squad for protection only. It draws a lot less fire than a Chimera, and thus means flamer, melta, or demo vets have a nice chance at getting where they need to go.

 

4. Monstrous Creatures

  Marines can really kill monstrous creatures. Concussive is amazing, and marines can put out a volume of power weapon attacks with Honor Guard that will overpower most MC in assault, save perhaps for the truly deadly ones.     

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I find Melee based Black Templars to be a Godsend in a marine army. Here's a couple reasons why:

 

1. Close Combat abilities.

   Most armies will destroy guard in melee combat. By deploy my marines just a ahead of my guard, I make sure assault HAS to go through all of my crusader squads before they can do anything to my guardsmen, who, as a plus, gain a 5+ cover save. Even better, Ministorum priests in a Crusader Squad. Literally one of the toughest units in the game to shift if rerolling armor saves, and one of the most brutal in assault if rerolling to wound.

 

2. Techmarine boosting cover

  There is little as satisfying as running 2+cover save vets.

 

3. Rhinos

  I agree that pods aren't terribly fluffy for guardsmen, although it can be made to work. But Rhinos I find to be a much better transport for Guardsmen than a Chimera, because at 35 points they are viable to use on a single squad for protection only. It draws a lot less fire than a Chimera, and thus means flamer, melta, or demo vets have a nice chance at getting where they need to go.

 

4. Monstrous Creatures

  Marines can really kill monstrous creatures. Concussive is amazing, and marines can put out a volume of power weapon attacks with Honor Guard that will overpower most MC in assault, save perhaps for the truly deadly ones.     

I guess i can see that. I don't run codex marines so I'm not as familiar with that codex. I also don't run rhinos with my Space Marines (I play Space Wolves), as I use a flier and pod heavy list. 

 

1. Close combat ability, the guard are definitely lacking there I agree. Stormies used to be viable in melee, and so did rough riders, now all we have is Ogryns, and I'd rather not rely on that. Luckily Space wolves have several formations that can help there, like the Void claws, and the Wolf Guard Thunderstrike. Formations are great as I don't need to pay the tax of characters or units I don't want to get what I do. So yes, they do have that. Guard typically deals with high toughness by drowning it in saves. But that doesn't always work, and my army struggles with MC's because I lack the weapons I need. A precision drop of a MTCS and a squad of MT with the sniper order is my only real way to deal with that.

 

2. That's nice, and I don't have a response to that.

 

3. Rhinos fall short in a couple ways though, The chimera is armed, pretty well actually, which means it can support the guardsmen when they get where they're going, something the rhino can't do, the Chimera also has a capacity of 12, which means it can deliver a hell of a lot of hurt and has better armor. I get where you're coming from though, the rhino is a bargain. 

 

4. Monster Hunter orders and the MT sniper order and rending order are probably the best ways I know how to deal with MC's with my army. Though I'll admit that the only MC's I face regularly are Tau Riptides. Tau Ghostkeels and Tyranids are easier (worse armor saves, and less wounds on the smaller stuff), but loading a MC down with saves is the only sure fire way to kill it. Whether it's by weight of fire in the shooting phase or by hitting it in CC. 

 

I'm not going to tell you how to play your army, and I'm not trying. I'm just saying that there's nothing that you need to take marines to counter, or need to take from the marine codex, that guard can't do or use. Guard plays differently, so you just need to adjust tactics to face different opponents. That's just my defense. Everyone struggles with MC's.

[Azarians]

Hello guardsmen !

 

 

What do you think about the arty formation ? I think we can do some nice combo with it... Like basilisks with ignores cover and twin-linked... : D

[marti350]

Well, you also can't cast the same power twice in a turn. Which, TBH, is nearly the same thing.

 

A lvl 1 Primaris Psyker knows three powers. Whatever they roll for, the primaris in that discipline, and Force. If they are all warp charge one powers your level 1 psyker could potentially get 3 useful powers off a turn

[defl0]

Hello guardsmen !

 

 

What do you think about the arty formation ? I think we can do some nice combo with it... Like basilisks with ignores cover and twin-linked... : D

But minimum 36" range! So it's not something you get to use a lot of turns...

[Emicus]

Direct Fire.

[cracklingvoice]

Direct Fire.

I don't think a Manticore or a Deathstrike can direct fire ... seems a bit situational. Just a little. It could be useful, but if anything gets that close, something has already gone wrong.

[Azarians]

Well we can mix with wyvern..

I mean : 2 wyvern which kill what they can under 24 psK 2 Basilisks which kill ennemy tanks in direct fire if necessary and the manticore which kill ennemy parking, with the order i think it can be strong... No ?

[Phubar]

Death and mani cant direct fire but both have 12 minimum range so not a big deal. Basilisks have to direct fire under 36 but you can manage this.

I heard about this formation so composed (with relative orders)

- 2 wiverns (pinning)

- 2 basilisks (ignore cover)

- 1 deathstrike

 

All of them can be twinliked thanks to voxes.

 

It seems a good formation to me.

[WarriorFish]

Given their potential blast radius you wouldn't want to be firing at anything within 12" so it's not even a small deal :P I think for the formation 2 Bassies and 2 Wyverns is a solid and dare I say it obvious choice - Bassies to get some killing in against hard targets and Wyverns to keep costs down a bit and obliterate infantry. Then flavour with Deathstrike or Manticore to taste :P

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I've used the arty formation recently against daemons. While the overall battle went poorly for me, the arty formation was awesome and put the hurt on his squishy troops. It's the FMCs that hurt me.

[Yorkston]

Maybe I missed something, but how do tank commanders work with warlord traits in the Cadian Battlegroup?  If you take a non-Pask TC as your "Cadian" warlord does it get to roll on the Cadian table?  If so is it a D3/D6/other?  1 on the table is Zealot, which is slightly useless on a tank.  A BS-6 Russ would be hilarious though.

[librisrouge]

Maybe I missed something, but how do tank commanders work with warlord traits in the Cadian Battlegroup?  If you take a non-Pask TC as your "Cadian" warlord does it get to roll on the Cadian table?  If so is it a D3/D6/other?  1 on the table is Zealot, which is slightly useless on a tank.  A BS-6 Russ would be hilarious though.

No slight about it, its useless.

 

I don't think tank commanders can roll on it. The units own rules are fairly specific that they use the astra militarum traits.

[Goonbandito]

You could put Hydras in the Artillery Formation, then order them to Ignore Cover to get the 'old' Ignore Jink Hydra back.

[librisrouge]

What they'd need is Bring It Down! so that the enemy would even feel the need to jink in the first place.

[Aethyran]

I'm left with spaming plasmaguns whenever I can because ordinance doesn't cut it and a lot of the other options are over priced and situational. I wish lascannons were more helpful but fielding them in any real numbers is way too points heavy and still limited by BS3 in a world where the enemy is in your face on turn 2, if not earlier.

Just wanted to mention Cult Mechanicus as allies, Kataphron destroyers (Grav cannons and cognis flamers) have been the key units for me. They can easily take down MCs, MEQs, Termies or destroy/cut hps/immobilize vehicles as well as being quite resilient from incoming fire (stealth canticle). Paired up with wyverns you have a deadly combo or excellent support to deter anything getting close to your table edge.

Kataphron Destroyers, Wyverns and to a lesser extent Tech Priest Dominus won me games since I got them together. Even against orks I have done fairly well by immobilizing those trukks

[Goonbandito]

What they'd need is Bring It Down! so that the enemy would even feel the need to jink in the first place.

AV12 is basically the max you'll see on a Flyer (Stormraven, Stormfang, Heldrake and Valkyrie/Vendetta). Most flyers are only AV11 or 10, and S7 hurts them well enough. Especially since 2 Hydra's are generally evenly matched with the price of a Flyer anyway, giving you 8 Twin-Linked Autocannon shots on a target.

[morroccomole]

 

What they'd need is Bring It Down! so that the enemy would even feel the need to jink in the first place.

AV12 is basically the max you'll see on a Flyer (Stormraven, Stormfang, Heldrake and Valkyrie/Vendetta). Most flyers are only AV11 or 10, and S7 hurts them well enough. Especially since 2 Hydra's are generally evenly matched with the price of a Flyer anyway, giving you 8 Twin-Linked Autocannon shots on a target.

 

My thoughts exactly. Not to mention, penetrating a flyer can be catastrophic, unless they take extra armor like a Valk does.

[Emicus]

 

 

 

What they'd need is Bring It Down! so that the enemy would even feel the need to jink in the first place.

AV12 is basically the max you'll see on a Flyer (Stormraven, Stormfang, Heldrake and Valkyrie/Vendetta). Most flyers are only AV11 or 10, and S7 hurts them well enough. Especially since 2 Hydra's are generally evenly matched with the price of a Flyer anyway, giving you 8 Twin-Linked Autocannon shots on a target.

My thoughts exactly. Not to mention, penetrating a flyer can be catastrophic, unless they take extra armor like a Valk does.

Try fmc on for size:(

[march10k]

 

 

 

What they'd need is Bring It Down! so that the enemy would even feel the need to jink in the first place.

AV12 is basically the max you'll see on a Flyer (Stormraven, Stormfang, Heldrake and Valkyrie/Vendetta). Most flyers are only AV11 or 10, and S7 hurts them well enough. Especially since 2 Hydra's are generally evenly matched with the price of a Flyer anyway, giving you 8 Twin-Linked Autocannon shots on a target.

My thoughts exactly. Not to mention, penetrating a flyer can be catastrophic, unless they take extra armor like a Valk does.

Try fmc on for size:(

 

Totally different story...thankfully, you don't have to pick an order in the list-building phase.  Ignoring jink on fliers and bring it down on FMC.

[Akrim]

The Manticore isn't a bad choice, carpet bombing S10 ordnance combined with twin-link or ignores cover can be nasty to vehicles and infantry alike. Personally I love the Deathstrike, if you pick the right target it's so unbelievably devastating. Even if it's danger close to your own troops, one-shoting an enemy death star is incredibly satisfying.

 

Hydras with ignores cover is ok if you're tangling with a skimmer heavy force, but vs FMCS it's still kind of blah since most have +3 armour anyways. Bring back interceptor and they would be much better.

 

Whatever the case, it's a good idea to have a solid carpet of infantry surrounding the Artillery Company to prevent drop podding/deep strike business.

 

What I'm trying to decide is what is our best counter super-heavy walkers / gargantuan creatures. Granted we can put a ton of Lascannon/Melta/Plasma on target but I would love to have a dedicated anti-LoW unit. Demolition vets are good, but getting them there alive is the challenge.

 

Mechanicus Kataphrons definitely look like they could put the hurt on a gargantuan but prob not much vs a super heavy. Plus you need to spend around 600-700pts to get even a smal Eilmination Maniple.

[Terminus]

I have not had the chance to use the Deathstrike, but it definitely doesn't seem like "an ordinary weapon". I see where it can disappoint if it fails to go off or the fact that it can only ever do one wound, but on the other hand, the template is huge.  As an Apocalyptic Blast and Barrage weapon, do you use the clover template or the pie?

[Akrim]

It shouldn't ever fail to go off unless it's destroyed somehow as it launches on +3 turn 2. In fact in the several times I've used it I've only had literally only one failure due to having the initiative stolen on me and not having it properly screened from deep strike.

 

The weapon itself specifies it as a 10" round ordnance blast which is freaking colossal (I use the old neon green apoc pie plate).

 

There are a very small handful of scenarios where it's not great, say an Imperial Knights army or a really fanned out fast army, or massed Wraiths perhaps, or FMC/MC spam. But the vast majority of the time it is dropping a tactical nuke on something vital to the other army.