Guard Mont'ka Formations!

[WarriorFish]

The Deathstrike is a bit of a gamble I think, it'll be a huge target and your opponent will surely be doing all he can to dilute its effectiveness too (chiefly destroying it :P ) but as Akrim said it can easily break your opponent if you hit the right place. I'm not one for such gambles usually but I make an exception for the Deathstrike because it's so over the top :lol:

[Akrim]

Yep, I wouldn't recommend it at less than 1850. Obviously as there's less models on the table.

 

But if you have probs with bikes, multi-wound T5 stuff, adios. The sheer size of the blast will vaporize it. Doubly so if you give the twin link order.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The emperor's shield infantry platoon has some potential, but the lack of DT hurts it IMO. Footslogging guardsmen are not a good option in my book.

[HenricusTyranicus]

The emperor's shield infantry platoon has some potential, but the lack of DT hurts it IMO. Footslogging guardsmen are not a good option in my book.

I'd think it'd probably work less well if you put them in Chimeras. I see one major use for Emperor's shield. 50 man guard blob, 5 heavy weapons teams, PCS in a stolen chimera ordering fire and advance (I think that's the name?) over and over again. And, since he still has one more order, order around a conscript blob or a HWS or something.

[Akrim]

Heh I like the idea, but a 50 man blob might be really unweildly screening tanks. The idea of rolling a couple hundred lasgun shots makes me happy though.

 

I find foot guys are essential to preventing podding/deep striking stuff from melta-ing Russ tanks and such. Conscripts are great at this.

 

If you need to get downfield for objectives you want Vets. Deep striking Scions aren't bad but really over costed.

 

I really hope we get more access to Scout or Infiltrate again in the next book. Ratlings suck.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

The emperor's shield infantry platoon has some potential, but the lack of DT hurts it IMO. Footslogging guardsmen are not a good option in my book.

I'd think it'd probably work less well if you put them in Chimeras. I see one major use for Emperor's shield. 50 man guard blob, 5 heavy weapons teams, PCS in a stolen chimera ordering fire and advance (I think that's the name?) over and over again. And, since he still has one more order, order around a conscript blob or a HWS or something.

 

How can you issue the fire and advance order over and over? You can issue it to one unit from the platoon. A Platoon Commander can only issue one order per turn. So I don't see how your suggestion works. 

 

The 50 man blob idea isn't bad, though I'd be tempted to leave it at 40 stick them in a stormlord. If I had one.

[defl0]

I've used big blobs for a long time.

 

I find 40 or 50 can work. But their power lies in the fact that they are fearless with a priest and have hidden power axes and they are efficient with orders so ignoring cover with 5 lascannons and 5 plasma guns is a serious that.

 

But in this formation, you are tempted to use and order that is less powerful and you don't have priests.

 

So personally I think that formation is a fail from a competative perspective.

[march10k]

The sheer size of the blast will vaporize it. Doubly so if you give the twin link order.

 

Wouldn't you have to give the order every turn just in case this is the turn that it launches?  Seems kinda inefficient to have to give the order say 5x to get the effect once....

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The ability to take a Company Command squad as a single formation is pretty powerful, and is pretty competitive by itself, as is the Emperor's Spear Aerial Company. Those together offer a ton of support to something like C:MT, where they lack some hard hitting high strength weapons. 

 

Having a Master of Ordnance on the field to drop S9 AP2 Ordnance 1 Large Blasts every turn is pretty nasty, and taking the Officer of the Fleet to get +1 to reserves also helps out greatly. And since they're a formation by themselves, you can take several, the ability to put down 2 MoO's and 2 OoF's on the table is great, especially when you are heavily dependent on reserves, and your opponent is as well. 

 

Now battlescribe doesn't show the battle command as a separate formation, which is odd. But you should be able to do this.

[Vel'Cona]

Phew! These are some big rumor confirmations for us, and I have more than a couple thoughts. For those that enjoy a read, enjoy. For those that TL:DR, sorry!

Cadian (?) Formation: Huge buy-in cost in terms of models and points if you go for the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Company. Much more realistic to go for the Armoured Company (assuming they don’t mess with squadron sizes for LR tanks). Battle Group Vox-net is an awesome rule, and High Command is pretty sweet too. Sharpshooters is situational and largely ignorable.

Emperor’s Shield Infantry Company: As said above, massive buy-in and a huge project to say the least. Punishing Fusillade is pretty neat and efficient, though I suspect grouping fire like this won’t be as big a burden as some are thinking. In either case, it’s a neat idea but I think the requirements are frankly ridiculous.

Emperor’s Fist Armoured Company: Excellent all around Formation for us treadheads, with reasonable requirements and a host of helpful rules. Formation Leader alone makes this Formation imminently playable (BS4 LRs? Yes please!).

Emperor’s Shield Infantry Platoon: Taken on its own, this Formation is actually pretty awful. You have to take 5 Infantry Squads and a Sentinel, and are prohibited from taking any transports. Even worse, Forward Recon is a relatively useless rule in general and Marching Drill is pretty forgettable. I’m not saying this Formation is completely useless, but it fails to make a case for the Emperor’s Shield Infantry Company pretty much in itself. No ObjSec on a huge infantry blob is frankly a crippling oversight.

Infantry Platoon: Still around for the big Formation (likely as an afterthought), but made ultimately awful by losing ObjSec. Unforgivable!

Super-Heavy Support Element: FINALLY!!! We can take Super-Heavy Tanks in the base codex! I mean, we could take them as LoW before anyway, but it’s nice to see them find their way into the hallowed pages. Here’s hoping for a huge points reduction! Also, there’s a Formation in here (Formationception?) but I’ll talk about that in a bit.

Emperor’s Blade Assault Company: A neat idea and possibly the most instantly useful Formation, though the Hellhound feels like a bit of a tax. As the only printed way I’ve seen to get ObjSec, this is a pretty solid Formation (remember the transports will get it too) for ranking 8 ObjSec units at a generally reasonable cost. Clear the Area is a neat rule that synergizes well with ObjSec, and almost makes an argument for the Hellhound variants. Keep in mind that these said Hellhound and co. may be in for a points reduction, too . . . don’t count ‘em out yet!

Emperor’s Spear Aerial Company: OK, so you can use your Valks/Vends as better transports. Why am I using my Flyers as transports in the first place? Formation Flight is probably the more useful rule, but unless Vendettas see a point reduction (unlikely) I wouldn’t count on this Formation unless you absolutely LOVE the idea of an aerial assault force.

Ogryn Auxilia: It’s a nice gesture, but ultimately I still think Ogryns and Bullgryns are kind of pointless. If you want assault units, there are better allied options and these guys are just too dang slow. Groundshaking Charge is pretty bad, too.

Emperor’s Wrath Artillery Company: I want to love this one, but I’m a bit torn. On the one hand, I like the idea of massed artillery and the Artillery Command rule could be really cool (once we know what the new Orders look like). On the other, Target Sighted requires some additional point investment (for vox-casters) and the Wyverns and Hydras couldn’t care less about it. Still, this does make a more valid argument for Manticores, Deathstrikes and Basilisks, but ultimately I can’t help but feel like either the Company Command Squad or the Manticore/Deathstrike will be nothing but a tax.

Emperor’s Talon Recon Company: Oh look, GW wants to sell us Sentinels. This Formation isn’t making it happen for me, but I can see why some would argue for Outflank + Dedicated Hunters (though remember that Scout Sentinels can already Outflank, duh). Company Command COULD be useful and possibly game-changing, but the softness of Sentinels in general and the mysterious Orders leave me a bit cold. Sorry Sentinel-lovers, I want to help you guys but this Formation just reeks of GW sales desperation.

Psykana Division: Winner of the “New Codex Element Most Likely to Cause a Fight” award, this Formation is already stirring the pot with potential Mastery Level 8 Primaris Psykers and the basically free Warp Charge points from the Wyrdvane Psykers. It’s a bit of a points dump, but this Formation essentially grants any willing army list a huge amount of Psychic Phase potential for the cost, limited only by the Disciplines available to the units involved. I’ll not weigh in on this one yet, but suffice it to say, I’m already preparing conversion tools to make 30 Wyrdvanes ASAP . . .

Militarum Tempestus Platoon: If you take this in the big ‘Cadian’ Formation, Sharpshooters actually makes a decent argument for the Hot-Shot Lasgun, and we can’t forget Battle Group Vox-net either. Whether or not this will make MT worth the cost is up to you.

Emperor’s Fury Super Heavy Company: An awesome idea, but ridiculously expensive under current costs. If the Baneblade et al. receive a decent points reduction then I’ll tune differently on this one, but right now it’s too expensive for what it offers. In either case, most of the special rules granted are neat, but none are particularly effective (for various reasons).

Overall, I'm pretty excited to get my Imperial Guard (yes really) back on the table, and this new codex at least promises I'll be looking at several units I've shelved in the past. What do you guys think?

[Akrim]

 

The sheer size of the blast will vaporize it. Doubly so if you give the twin link order.

 

 

Wouldn't you have to give the order every turn just in case this is the turn that it launches?  Seems kinda inefficient to have to give the order say 5x to get the effect once....

Sorry bad wording, not the order, the "Target Sighted" special rule as part of the Emperors Wrath Artillery Company.

 

But there's no way it should take that long to fire unless your rolling is horrid and you're suffering multiple weapon destroyed results.

 

The MoO isn't bad for its points, the inaccuracy is frustrating sometimes though. Multiple officers of the Fleet could be pretty good, esp since I chronically fail LD7 rolls.

[HenricusTyranicus]

 

 

The emperor's shield infantry platoon has some potential, but the lack of DT hurts it IMO. Footslogging guardsmen are not a good option in my book.

I'd think it'd probably work less well if you put them in Chimeras. I see one major use for Emperor's shield. 50 man guard blob, 5 heavy weapons teams, PCS in a stolen chimera ordering fire and advance (I think that's the name?) over and over again. And, since he still has one more order, order around a conscript blob or a HWS or something.

 

How can you issue the fire and advance order over and over? You can issue it to one unit from the platoon. A Platoon Commander can only issue one order per turn. So I don't see how your suggestion works. 

 

The 50 man blob idea isn't bad, though I'd be tempted to leave it at 40 stick them in a stormlord. If I had one.

 

50 man blob receives the order as one. Plus "Marching Drill" states that he can use the special order in addition to any other order he might use, meaning he can still FRFSRF another unit. 

 

I've used big blobs for a long time.

 

I find 40 or 50 can work. But their power lies in the fact that they are fearless with a priest and have hidden power axes and they are efficient with orders so ignoring cover with 5 lascannons and 5 plasma guns is a serious that.

 

But in this formation, you are tempted to use and order that is less powerful and you don't have priests.

 

So personally I think that formation is a fail from a competative perspective.

If you're taking this in addition to a CAD, which is how most will use it, a lack of priests is no problem. And you can just use the order that is most efficient to use in the given circumstances. 

 

Should you be taking it in the formation, you'll be rerolling ones to shoot and have punishing fusillade, so your whole strategy will hinge on keeping them out of assault anyway. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

 

 

The emperor's shield infantry platoon has some potential, but the lack of DT hurts it IMO. Footslogging guardsmen are not a good option in my book.

I'd think it'd probably work less well if you put them in Chimeras. I see one major use for Emperor's shield. 50 man guard blob, 5 heavy weapons teams, PCS in a stolen chimera ordering fire and advance (I think that's the name?) over and over again. And, since he still has one more order, order around a conscript blob or a HWS or something.

 

How can you issue the fire and advance order over and over? You can issue it to one unit from the platoon. A Platoon Commander can only issue one order per turn. So I don't see how your suggestion works. 

 

The 50 man blob idea isn't bad, though I'd be tempted to leave it at 40 stick them in a stormlord. If I had one.

 

50 man blob receives the order as one. Plus "Marching Drill" states that he can use the special order in addition to any other order he might use, meaning he can still FRFSRF another unit. 

 

I see what you're saying now, combining the 5 squads into a 50 man blob.

[WarriorFish]

Who's this Vel guy? Seems familiar somehow... Some of the formations have a bit of potential, others not so much. So a bit of a mixed bag but overall nothing to get too excited over in my opinion. Just a prelude to a new codex hopefully but its good to see some people potentially getting some use out of them :)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I was just watching a Miniwargaming review of the Cadian battlegroup:

 

 

They made some comments about what the infantry core choice should have been. And I did a workup on it, basically what I came up with was this:

 

1 CCS

1-3 Infantry Platoon with 5 squads minimum (IS, HWS, SWS, excluding PCS)

1-3 Veterans

1-3 Sentinel Squadrons

 

It comes out to 470 points minimum. Fully optimized as I would take it, it's a full list at 3670 points. Lots of potential for versatility there. It could also have been made this way:

 

1 CCS

1-3 Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoons

1-3 Veteran Squads

 

Which comes out at about 435 point minimum. That's not a bad core, it's flexible, and can be contained by itself. Keep the Infantry company benefits and it's still powerful, considering all the things that vets can do.

[march10k]

good review!

[duz_]

So I've had time to make some CBG lists that I might consider taking for a 1850pt game

 

Given my play style rarely hinges around orders or lasgun fire is the CBG benefits really worth it?

 

Has anyone else tried the CBG yet and found the benefits worth it?

 

Using a CCS HQ and armoured company as a core I found my spare points were used on a CAD for bubble wrap and some taroux for some mobility and all I ended up with was more reliable orders for my guardsmen for free?

[HenricusTyranicus]

So I've had time to make some CBG lists that I might consider taking for a 1850pt game

 

Given my play style rarely hinges around orders or lasgun fire is the CBG benefits really worth it?

 

Has anyone else tried the CBG yet and found the benefits worth it?

 

Using a CCS HQ and armoured company as a core I found my spare points were used on a CAD for bubble wrap and some taroux for some mobility and all I ended up with was more reliable orders for my guardsmen for free?

Hang on, why would you use a CAD for bubble wrap? You can take regular infantry platoons as Auxilary, and those guys will reroll ones to hit with lasguns, as well as being easier to order.

[duz_]

Because if I do take those I lose my obsec taroux (and gaurdsmen for that matter)

 

I did build a list with a CBG platoon but again I feel like obsec was the better advantage

 

Unfortunately the emperors blade formation is too exxy at 1850 and then you get no bubble wrap at all

 

I suppose you could argue with list it should be completely mobile (as mobile as heavy tanks can be)

[march10k]

It's the "you must have five infantry squads in your platoon" thing that breaks it for me.  Should have been three.  I realize that that's only one more than the normal minimum, but it really is "right-sized."  a 25-man platoon is weak, 35 is just right, 45 isn't much better than 35, although that would be my second choice, and 55 is just unwieldy.  There's a reason my mech company had two platoons of 35 men and 4 chimeras each back before vets came down to a reasonable points level.

[duz_]

It's the "you must have five infantry squads in your platoon" thing that breaks it for me.  Should have been three.  I realize that that's only one more than the normal minimum, but it really is "right-sized."  a 25-man platoon is weak, 35 is just right, 45 isn't much better than 35, although that would be my second choice, and 55 is just unwieldy.  There's a reason my mech company had two platoons of 35 men and 4 chimeras each back before vets came down to a reasonable points level.

I could have handled that tbh

Somewhat inflexible and expensive but workable

 

The issue is that you aren't allowed to take transports with it, which means combined with an armoured company you have an entire army which can only move 6"

Which as one of the podcast I listened to recently said; an army which is restricted to a 6" movement phase will struggle with the missions in the current edition

 

So has anyone had much success with the CBG or even run it as is?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

It's the "you must have five infantry squads in your platoon" thing that breaks it for me.  Should have been three.  I realize that that's only one more than the normal minimum, but it really is "right-sized."  a 25-man platoon is weak, 35 is just right, 45 isn't much better than 35, although that would be my second choice, and 55 is just unwieldy.  There's a reason my mech company had two platoons of 35 men and 4 chimeras each back before vets came down to a reasonable points level.

That restriction is only for the Emperor's Shield platoon, you can take a regular vanilla platoon as an auxiliary choice as well. The Emperor's Shield grants some nice bonuses, but I agree it's unweildy, and not to mention difficult for many guard players to field. I'd use it if I had 2 more Infantry squads to devote to it (that's a goal of mine, plus 2 more tanks so I can field the Emperor's fist).

 

I'd rather be devoting my money to getting a 35 man platoon of Steel Legion, rather than building more cadians. Though FormerlyWu is working on making a more playable version of the formations, so you can play the thing below 2k. If you're interested you can check that out here.

[march10k]

Not really interested...My LGS probably wouldn't react well to "hey, here are some proposed house rules I got from the interwebz" 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Not really interested...My LGS probably wouldn't react well to "hey, here are some proposed house rules I got from the interwebz" 

I can see that. I was putting it out there for other folks as well. Honestly, The CBG has a tremendous lack of obsec for my liking, though I have to say I do like the Emperor's Blade, Spear, and Talon formations, too bad you can't make a good CBG out of them.

[duz_]

Funny you should say that I just put this list together

 

I guess its a fairly mobile armour company with some obsec

 

The trick will be not to have anything static including the tanks which will be tricky as they have zero bubble wrap....

 

Might give it a shot for laughs

 

 

+ Command +

Battle Group Command

Company Command Squad

Chimera, 2x Veteran w/ Plasma Gun, Veteran w/ Medi-pack

 

+ Core +

Emperor's Fist Armoured Company Enginseer

 

Demolisher [Dozer Blade, Heavy Flamer]

 

Vanquisher [2x Multi-meltas, Lascannon]

 

Punisher [2x Heavy Bolter, Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolter]

 

Tank Commander

Battle Tank [Heavy Bolter]

W/ Battle Tank [Heavy Bolter]

 

+ Auxiliary +

Emperor's Blade Assault Company

Company Command Squad

Taurox, Veteran w/ Heavy Flamer, 2x Veteran w/ Plasma Gun, Veteran w/ Medi-pack

 

Hellhound [Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolter]

 

3x Veterans Squads

Taurox, Veteran w/ Heavy Flamer, 2x Veteran w/ Meltagun

 

 

Militarum Tempestus Platoon

1x 5 man Militarum Tempestus Scions

2x w/ Meltagun