Ordo Machinum Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 With every rechoosing of a Heresy-era Legion to start an army of, I always try to begin by looking at how they assembled. I know there's no 'one-way' and that the formations expanded and shrunk depending upon the tactical need at the moment. ++++++++++++ THE STRATEGIC DISPOSITION OF THE X LEGION 'IRON HANDS' ++++++++++++ Strategic Disposition of a Space Marine Legion - HH I 30-31 The source above delves into a Legion's breakdown into Chapters, into Battalions, and then into Companies. For example, a Battalion was usually comprised of five companies. Each Company was designated by the units it was made from: 1st Company - Veterans (Elites: Templar Brethren, Veteran Tacticals, Terminators, etc)2nd Company - Battle Line (Troops: Tactical, Assault, Breacher Siege, etc)3rd Company - Battle Line (Troops: Tactical, Assault, Breacher Siege, etc)4th Company - Battle Line (Troops: Tactical, Assault, Breacher Siege, etc)5th Company - Specialists (Fast Attack & Heavy Support: Phalanx Warder, Outrider Bikes, Heavy Support, etc) Of course, some companies could be more focused depending on the tactical role they play in their chapter. The Hour of the Gorgon - HH II 66-67 "In a scant few years, Ferrus Manus was transferred full control of the Xth Legion which he took command of body and soul, renaming it and remaking it in his image. Sweeping away much of what had gone before by way of organization at a stroke, the Primarch took the Xth apart with the precision and intent with which an artisan might deconstruct a mechanical chronograph, reconfigure its components and re-assemble it in a fashion more to his liking." Unit Organisation and Structure within the Legion - HH II 72-73 "The Iron Hands Legion was instead deliberately composed from a series of interlocking components, each with its own specialization, duties and chain of command, beholden only to itself and its immediate superiors. Each of these components; be they Legionary squad, armoured vehicle squadron, support elements, etc. came together first as companies in the broadly standard model." "...each company was a part of a larger grouping with its own independent command, support and logistical network, armoury and ships created for a particular campaign or battle. These formations were referred to as Orders and were superficially equivalent to a specialized battalion in general Legiones Astartes terms, but far more concrete in makeup and isolated in operation. Inside an Order, the component companies were configured in such a way that each unit's function combined together to form a gestalt whole whose tactical and strategic capacities, like components of a machine working together in unison, were capable of actions outweighed by the sum of their parts." "Clans were notionally the Iron Hands' equivalent of the chapters of other Legions..." "These Iron Hands Clans were in fact 'pocket Legions', fully self-sufficient and self-supplied, and each had a single Chieftain or Iron Lord to rule them by Primarch-given right." Consequently, here is my spin on this data... Legion = # of Clans (Chapters). Clan (Chapter) = # of Orders (Battalions) Order (Battalion) = # of Companies Company = # of Legionaries Since the Iron Hand Clans are 'pocket legions', can we presume they could each muster a company of each unit type? There are approximately 40 individual unit types according to The Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List. The Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List shows how many legions astartes can be in a particular unit. The Strategic Disposition outline above shows nine units per company (the companies were of the 'broadly standard model'). This would give us an approximate 3000 legions astartes within 40 companies of individual unit types. Further information states there were 113,000 Iron Hands at the time of the Isstvan Massacre. One-third of this number were not there at the time and survived (whether as a shattered legion or rogue bands). 37,290 surviving Iron Hands divided by Clans (Chapters) of roughly 3,000 equals an equivalent of twelve and a half Clans. Well, we know the Iron Hands have at least ten Clans surviving the Heresy. Close enough for 'meatball-mathematics'? I wonder if this would make the Iron Hands a 'Jack-of-All-Trades'-style army rather than a Master of any one element? Thoughts? Ciao, R. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316941-iron-hands-project-igniting-the-forge/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 You would to diminish the value of some unit types, as the Iron Hands employed far less fast attack choices and more armour. You would also have to take into account that in addition to our unique style of warfare (interlocking cogs, bring a greater whole than the sum of it's parts) we also have abundant war materiel. This means that my of our troops would refit for different specializations if need be. Otherwise, what's the point of having the equipment? 1/3rd of the legion was at Isstvan, not the other way around ;) You would have to account for the second wave losses though, which we did not have any figures for to this date I believe. Otherwise, good stuff ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316941-iron-hands-project-igniting-the-forge/#findComment-4247669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Companies are not divided by unit type. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316941-iron-hands-project-igniting-the-forge/#findComment-4247750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I'd be careful assuming that Clans were 3000 Legionaries in size - the only indication of their size is that they're loosely equivalent to Chapters, so they likely range significantly around a mode of 1000. Also, whilst 1/3 of the Legion was absent from Isstvan, they weren't the only surviving elements of the Legion - as many as half of the second wave may have survived the Massacre, which would leave the total remaining elements of the Legion at around 70-80 thousand. Additionally, a number of the Clans which survived to 40k in the Iron Hands Chapter formed part of the second wave at Isstvan - we've had no information about any Clan not present in the 52nd Expedition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316941-iron-hands-project-igniting-the-forge/#findComment-4247812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ordo Machinum Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 ...and THAT'S why I called it "meatball-mathematics" You would to diminish the value of some unit types, as the Iron Hands employed far less fast attack choices and more armour. You would also have to take into account that in addition to our unique style of warfare (interlocking cogs, bring a greater whole than the sum of it's parts) we also have abundant war materiel. This means that my of our troops would refit for different specializations if need be. Otherwise, what's the point of having the equipment? 1/3rd of the legion was at Isstvan, not the other way around You would have to account for the second wave losses though, which we did not have any figures for to this date I believe. Otherwise, good stuff Thanks. Yeah, I'm undone by too many variables. I knew it going into this, but I had to try. I was looking at the "interlocking cogs" as each specialized company of a single unit type. I suppose it is more of the variety of units within the company/cog. Companies are not divided by unit type. I was picturing them as "highly" specialized, but I see the point in it being too generic. I'd be careful assuming that Clans were 3000 Legionaries in size - the only indication of their size is that they're loosely equivalent to Chapters, so they likely range significantly around a mode of 1000. Also, whilst 1/3 of the Legion was absent from Isstvan, they weren't the only surviving elements of the Legion - as many as half of the second wave may have survived the Massacre, which would leave the total remaining elements of the Legion at around 70-80 thousand. Additionally, a number of the Clans which survived to 40k in the Iron Hands Chapter formed part of the second wave at Isstvan - we've had no information about any Clan not present in the 52nd Expedition. Too much gravy with my meatball-math! I knew the "broadly standard company" format I could get direct from the HH I entry shown above. My error in numbers was in trying to overly specialize the companies of single unit types. It makes for too great a number per Clan/Chapter. Although the way HH II refers to the Iron Hand Legion structure as being different from the "norm" - granted that may be more a factor of their command redundancy for each level, allowing Orders, Companies, etc.. to act more independently from each other. "Pocket Legion" may mean just that. Each Clan/Chapter is just like a legion... only smaller. At the least, one should use more heavies than fast attacks when emulating an "Iron Hands"-style list. I appreciate your comments and suggestions. I'll try to revisit the this when I can add something new. Thanks! Ciao, R. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/316941-iron-hands-project-igniting-the-forge/#findComment-4247849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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