[HH1.0] Dark Angels Tactics

[Erren]

If you have any Mk VI torsos, shoulders, and helms laying around, those would also work - then the arms would even match. I haven't yet found a source on those that are cheap enough to make me happy.

[LaborerDNA]

Thanks!

My main concern was about vehicle itself. Pilot's armour of course would be replaced.

 

Now only need to pile up dem speeders with graviton guns.

[rendingon1+]

My unworthy tactical advice:

Apothecaries. For me they work great - give them a power sword (blade of caliban) and a combigrenade. When attached to tactical/veteran you gain two characters (the other one is sergeant equipped with axe/fist) who can handle challanges either at AP3 or AP2 so you're not stuck with AP3 vs 2+, and you get a nice bonus due to stasis shells. And feel no pain on top of that. :)

[Charlo]

My unworthy tactical advice:

Apothecaries. For me they work great - give them a power sword (blade of caliban) and a combigrenade. When attached to tactical/veteran you gain two characters (the other one is sergeant equipped with axe/fist) who can handle challanges either at AP3 or AP2 so you're not stuck with AP3 vs 2+, and you get a nice bonus due to stasis shells. And feel no pain on top of that. :)

Taking that further, melee Tac blobs aren't too bad for DA when you factor in the stasis and basic bonus to hit anyway.

 

Even at S4, you get to strike faster and more accurately than other Astartes.

[The Lord of Iron]

Tactical Squads aren't bad but the thing is they are expensive to make useful when you factor in equipment, transports, and characters. To get our legion rule we need to give the entire squad chain swords which means either no bolters or a 20 - 40 point increase in price. On top of that both of the legion rights of war require that infantry begin the game in transports. Raven wing needs the transport to be a flyer so you are looking at either an Anvillus, a Storm Eagle, or a Caestus. no matter which transport you choose you are looking at at least a 100 point investment, and only the storm eagle can accommodate an increase in bodies which will run you closer to 250 points. Iron wing not only requires that all infantry begin the game in a transport but also that half the units in your army be tanks. That makes it near mandatory that all infantry purchase a rhino, which will not accommodate the inclusion of an apothecary. Further more because you will only have a maximum of three tank units that are not transports (and therefor not already balancing another unit in the list out) meaning you will only have three additional choice in your army. One automatically has to go to a master of the legion to open the right of war, one will go to a dreadnought talon because of the bonuses they get from the right, leaving one open choice that can be anything. because there is only one open choice left you cannot take an apothecary and a squad to attach him because aside from terminators there is no dedicated transport large enough to carry 11 men. Even if you could take a tactical squad like that there is no easy way to give them stasis shells. You could give them to a storm eagle or an accompanying dreadnought but both are rather expensive choices (although effective). Ultimately of all the legions the first legion is the one that most exculpates the use of massed infantry tactics, they do other things very well but if you are looking for large amounts of infantry based fighting you should probably look elsewhere.

Edited March 3, 2016 by The Lord of Iron

[Erren]

Ravenwing can't take Tactical Squads: only Jetbikes and Outriders are allowed as Troops. So if you want some power armored infantry, bring seekers or vets in an Anvillus. Bright side is that either would be able to accommodate an apothecary if you felt inclined.

 

Something easily overlooked for Ironwing: the Caestus has the tank subtype, so you could bring it if for some reason you really wanted one in your ironwing army. I can't really imagine why you would other than maybe rule of cool, but it's there. Also, don't forget the Damocles Command Rhino, it's not too expensive and gives you a possible fourth not-tank spot. My gaming group's agreed to let Super-Heavy Tanks count as Tanks for the purposes of Ironwing, so that really opens up space for more dreads.

 

How do people like their Melta Predators? Squadron of 2 or 3? Machine Spirit? Lascannons? I'm inclined to keep them as cheap as possible, but I haven't played with them yet. I wish the FW kit was Melta/Plasma instead of the exsisting combinations, because I'm awfully tempted by that Plasma Pred from a fluff standpoint.

 

Does Ironwing make Rotor Cannon Tac Support Squad in Rhino not-terrible? They basically become S4 Rotor Cannons, which could force quite a few saves.

[depthcharge12]

I think Ironwing works best with 2 10 man tacticals in rhinos with extra ccws and the sgt with a combi stasis and a Calibanite blade. They just do drive by's and take care of infantry while your dreads and tanks handle TEQs and vehicles.

[The Lord of Iron]

I don't have the book in front of me and am only working off of second hand knowledge but as far as i understand you can still take tactical squads in raven wing they just cannot be compulsory choices and they must have a flyer as a transport. I wouldn't overlook the idea of vets or even tactical squads (if they can be taken) in a storm eagle as a solid reserve choice. The Storm eagle can take a missile launcher with stasis missiles and two las cannons to act as anti-tank and then assault support.

 

It really doesn't matter that the caestus has the tank sub type it is still a heavy support choice and will not benefit from any of the rite of war so its almost entirely pointless to take one. True you can take a command rhino I had considered that, although the price might be prohibitive.

 

The thing with Iron wing is that it seem to make a dark angels army really good at deal with large threats like tanks and monsters with Bs 5 twin linked las cannons, tank hunting dreadnoughts and cheap accurate predators. But seems to leave the army wanting when dealing with infantry spam as most tanks that will benefit from bs 5 won't be anti-infantry. 

 

Personally my third sport would go to a flyer either a xiphon if i need even more anti-armor for some reason or more likely a primaris lighting to pull double duty as anti air, and picking off devastator squads.

 

I wouldn't go with melta pred personally. They don't benefit from iron wing and really it just seems to make them want to be vindicators.

Edited March 3, 2016 by The Lord of Iron

[rendingon1+]

I don't have the book in front of me and am only working off of second hand knowledge but as far as i understand you can still take tactical squads in raven wing they just cannot be compulsory choices and they must have a flyer as a transport. I wouldn't overlook the idea of vets or even tactical squads (if they can be taken) in a storm eagle as a solid reserve choice. The Storm eagle can take a missile launcher with stasis missiles and two las cannons to act as anti-tank and then assault support.

 

It really doesn't matter that the caestus has the tank sub type it is still a heavy support choice and will not benefit from any of the rite of war so its almost entirely pointless to take one. True you can take a command rhino I had considered that, although the price might be prohibitive.

 

The thing with Iron wing is that it seem to make a dark angels army really good at deal with large threats like tanks and monsters with Bs 5 twin linked las cannons, tank hunting dreadnoughts and cheap accurate predators. But seems to leave the army wanting when dealing with infantry spam as most tanks that will benefit from bs 5 won't be anti-infantry. 

 

Personally my third sport would go to a flyer either a xiphon if i need even more anti-armor for some reason or more likely a primaris lighting to pull double duty as anti air, and picking off devastator squads.

 

I wouldn't go with melta pred personally. They don't benefit from iron wing and really it just seems to make them want to be vindicators.

Just to clarify: When using Ravenwing Protocols, (jet)bikes are the only troop choices available. Unlike Chogorian Brotherhood where you can take even breachers.

Vehicles with access to ML cannot be upgraded to use stasis shells.

[The Lord of Iron]

 

I don't have the book in front of me and am only working off of second hand knowledge but as far as i understand you can still take tactical squads in raven wing they just cannot be compulsory choices and they must have a flyer as a transport. I wouldn't overlook the idea of vets or even tactical squads (if they can be taken) in a storm eagle as a solid reserve choice. The Storm eagle can take a missile launcher with stasis missiles and two las cannons to act as anti-tank and then assault support.

 

It really doesn't matter that the caestus has the tank sub type it is still a heavy support choice and will not benefit from any of the rite of war so its almost entirely pointless to take one. True you can take a command rhino I had considered that, although the price might be prohibitive.

 

The thing with Iron wing is that it seem to make a dark angels army really good at deal with large threats like tanks and monsters with Bs 5 twin linked las cannons, tank hunting dreadnoughts and cheap accurate predators. But seems to leave the army wanting when dealing with infantry spam as most tanks that will benefit from bs 5 won't be anti-infantry. 

 

Personally my third sport would go to a flyer either a xiphon if i need even more anti-armor for some reason or more likely a primaris lighting to pull double duty as anti air, and picking off devastator squads.

 

I wouldn't go with melta pred personally. They don't benefit from iron wing and really it just seems to make them want to be vindicators.

Just to clarify: When using Ravenwing Protocols, (jet)bikes are the only troop choices available. Unlike Chogorian Brotherhood where you can take even breachers.

Vehicles with access to ML cannot be upgraded to use stasis shells.

 

 

Without meaning to be rude I'm going to take both of those with a grain of salt until I get my hands on an actual copy of the book (one can always hope). That being said wow what is with all the restrictions to the first legion? how did forge world intend for this legion to be played? all the gear is strictly infantry while all the rights seems to be strictly vehicle based kind of a bummer. At least you can still take other infantry squads in raven wing.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

 

I don't have the book in front of me and am only working off of second hand knowledge but as far as i understand you can still take tactical squads in raven wing they just cannot be compulsory choices and they must have a flyer as a transport. I wouldn't overlook the idea of vets or even tactical squads (if they can be taken) in a storm eagle as a solid reserve choice. The Storm eagle can take a missile launcher with stasis missiles and two las cannons to act as anti-tank and then assault support.

 

It really doesn't matter that the caestus has the tank sub type it is still a heavy support choice and will not benefit from any of the rite of war so its almost entirely pointless to take one. True you can take a command rhino I had considered that, although the price might be prohibitive.

 

The thing with Iron wing is that it seem to make a dark angels army really good at deal with large threats like tanks and monsters with Bs 5 twin linked las cannons, tank hunting dreadnoughts and cheap accurate predators. But seems to leave the army wanting when dealing with infantry spam as most tanks that will benefit from bs 5 won't be anti-infantry. 

 

Personally my third sport would go to a flyer either a xiphon if i need even more anti-armor for some reason or more likely a primaris lighting to pull double duty as anti air, and picking off devastator squads.

 

I wouldn't go with melta pred personally. They don't benefit from iron wing and really it just seems to make them want to be vindicators.

Just to clarify: When using Ravenwing Protocols, (jet)bikes are the only troop choices available. Unlike Chogorian Brotherhood where you can take even breachers.

Vehicles with access to ML cannot be upgraded to use stasis shells.

 

 

Without meaning to be rude I'm going to take both of those with a grain of salt until I get my hands on an actual copy of the book (one can always hope). That being said wow what is with all the restrictions to the first legion? how did forge world intend for this legion to be played? all the gear is strictly infantry while all the rights seems to be strictly vehicle based kind of a bummer. At least you can still take other infantry squads in raven wing.

 

"Iron Knights; Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadrons and Legion Outrider Squads are the only Troops choices available in a Primary Detachment using this Rite of War. Independent Characters selected for use with this Rite of War must take either a Space Marine Bike or Scimitar Jetbike as part of their wargear."

 

There's a little bit more, but yes, that's what the rules say. 

 

As for what units are "restrictive"; I'm guessing they're actually wanting to shift some of the models they've got. Combi-Grenade Launchers and Missile Launchers in general are rather terrible options in 30K, while Jetbikes and Outriders rarely got any loving.

 

The Ironwing Protocol is basically to shift basic Predators, from what I can see, and maybe buckets of the new Vindicator Tank Destroyers who can pick up BS5 and Split Fire. Meanwhile, Dreadnoughts get Fear (bleh) and Tank Hunters to make them more attractive compared to the Deredeo - a Rifleman Dread is packing 4 BS4 TL Tank Hunter S7 Shots. While the Dual Grav Dread with Chainfist is packing in 5 WS5 S10 Armourbane Tank Hunting Attacks on the charge after peppering them with 4 Grav Shots in turn 1 and turn 2 shooting phases.

[The Lord of Iron]

 

 

 

I don't have the book in front of me and am only working off of second hand knowledge but as far as i understand you can still take tactical squads in raven wing they just cannot be compulsory choices and they must have a flyer as a transport. I wouldn't overlook the idea of vets or even tactical squads (if they can be taken) in a storm eagle as a solid reserve choice. The Storm eagle can take a missile launcher with stasis missiles and two las cannons to act as anti-tank and then assault support.

 

It really doesn't matter that the caestus has the tank sub type it is still a heavy support choice and will not benefit from any of the rite of war so its almost entirely pointless to take one. True you can take a command rhino I had considered that, although the price might be prohibitive.

 

The thing with Iron wing is that it seem to make a dark angels army really good at deal with large threats like tanks and monsters with Bs 5 twin linked las cannons, tank hunting dreadnoughts and cheap accurate predators. But seems to leave the army wanting when dealing with infantry spam as most tanks that will benefit from bs 5 won't be anti-infantry. 

 

Personally my third sport would go to a flyer either a xiphon if i need even more anti-armor for some reason or more likely a primaris lighting to pull double duty as anti air, and picking off devastator squads.

 

I wouldn't go with melta pred personally. They don't benefit from iron wing and really it just seems to make them want to be vindicators.

Just to clarify: When using Ravenwing Protocols, (jet)bikes are the only troop choices available. Unlike Chogorian Brotherhood where you can take even breachers.

Vehicles with access to ML cannot be upgraded to use stasis shells.

 

 

Without meaning to be rude I'm going to take both of those with a grain of salt until I get my hands on an actual copy of the book (one can always hope). That being said wow what is with all the restrictions to the first legion? how did forge world intend for this legion to be played? all the gear is strictly infantry while all the rights seems to be strictly vehicle based kind of a bummer. At least you can still take other infantry squads in raven wing.

 

"Iron Knights; Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadrons and Legion Outrider Squads are the only Troops choices available in a Primary Detachment using this Rite of War. Independent Characters selected for use with this Rite of War must take either a Space Marine Bike or Scimitar Jetbike as part of their wargear."

 

There's a little bit more, but yes, that's what the rules say. 

 

As for what units are "restrictive"; I'm guessing they're actually wanting to shift some of the models they've got. Combi-Grenade Launchers and Missile Launchers in general are rather terrible options in 30K, while Jetbikes and Outriders rarely got any loving.

 

The Ironwing Protocol is basically to shift basic Predators, from what I can see, and maybe buckets of the new Vindicator Tank Destroyers who can pick up BS5 and Split Fire. Meanwhile, Dreadnoughts get Fear (bleh) and Tank Hunters to make them more attractive compared to the Deredeo - a Rifleman Dread is packing 4 BS4 TL Tank Hunter S7 Shots. While the Dual Grav Dread with Chainfist is packing in 5 WS5 S10 Armourbane Tank Hunting Attacks on the charge after peppering them with 4 Grav Shots in turn 1 and turn 2 shooting phases.

 

 

That was dark. I personally prefer not to think that every decision made in the games design is motivated by the desire to move as many models as possible and instead like to think that whatever design choices were made, were made to provide a new, different, or interesting play experience. Forge World in particular has always been fairly good at design engaging army lists rather than borderline broken ones (Hell drakes, Riptides, and Wraith Knights lists all come to mind). With the restrictive elements of the dark angels for example I like to think that I'm missing some intended play style or army composition rather than seeing certain models being pushed. Or at the very worst some poor design choices that will be remedied in books to come like they have with certain other legions.

 

as for iron wing I think you would be much better off taking as many basic land raiders as possible. They won't bring as much dakka as a dakka pred but the twin-linked las cannons will make them very efficient at methodically removing any enemy armor on the field.

[Hesh Kadesh]

200pts for 2 Lascannons?

 

No ta.

[The Lord of Iron]

2 av 14 5 hp las cannons 

 

if you are going to play tanks might as well play all the tanks.

 

seriously though there aren't many options for tank squads, and even fewer that can make use of the +1 bs. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

And do what with them? They can't shoot anything of worth with their BS5, the guys inside can't assault, and even though they're BS5, they were TL'd anyway.

 

Predators with Las-Sponsons are 115pts per, and are packing 4 Shot BS5 Autocannons and 2 BS5 Lascannons. For less than the cost of a Phobos, you are putting out 8 S7 shots and 4 S9 AP2 shots. I wouldn't really be using Terminators in this list, because of the lack of ability to take Dreadclaws on them, and instead take Dreadnoughts for my heavy armour duty. 

 

Alternative is to take a trio of Heavy Conversion Beamers for the BS5 Blasts. 

 

Meanwhile, use Rhino Tacticals, and Special Weapon Squads, pushing up behind the AV13 wall of Predator. 

[Charlo]

The restrictions are in place for fluff reasons really.

 

The RoW are called "protocols", so it's the DA using thier mastery of a single type of warfare to eliminate an enemy that is weak to it.

[Spinsanity]

And while the legion specific Rites can be great sometimes, you don't have to use them... Pick a generic one if you don't like the restrictions, or don't play one at all...

[rendingon1+]

At the moment Ravenwing Protocols are the only way to squeeze the most of DA 'legion tactics'. The only problem is that (I suppose) none have jetbikes models in numbers needed to run it effectively without proxy. Without their special toys (and I mean acid shells and stasis) Dark Angels feel like vanilla with minor bonus and major drawback (seriously,  Covenant of Death is the dumbest thing ever).

 

My opinion of course.

Edited March 4, 2016 by rendingon1+

[The Lord of Iron]

The restrictions are in place for fluff reasons really.

 

The RoW are called "protocols", so it's the DA using thier mastery of a single type of warfare to eliminate an enemy that is weak to it.

 

Thing is their rights of war kind of leave them as specific and vulnerable to counter as the lists they were designed to counter. Iron wing for example kind of lacks in mass infantry removal, unless you run all dakka preds.

 

And while the legion specific Rites can be great sometimes, you don't have to use them... Pick a generic one if you don't like the restrictions, or don't play one at all...

 

If you Aren't going to play one of the specific rights of war then there really isn't a reason to play the dark angels. As its been said before our legion rules are basically none existent. The dark angels aren't the alpha legion who can adapt to nearly every right of war, or the Imperial fists who have a fairly solid set of legion rules to build a list around.  

 

At the moment Ravenwing Protocols are the only way to squeeze the most of DA 'legion tactics'. The only problem is that (I suppose) none have jetbikes models in numbers needed to run it effectively without proxy. Without their special toys (and I mean acid shells and stasis) Dark Angels feel like vanilla with minor bonus and major drawback (seriously,  Covenant of Death is the dumbest thing ever).

 

My opinion of course.

 

I actually like covenant of death.  I thought it  was really fluffy for a legion largely focused on extermination campaigns. especially one who does it through carefully planning rather than the world eater approach of frothing madness. Its kind of a friendly wager with your opponent that you can dismantle his army faster than he can yours. 

 

But the problem is the first legion benefits don't stack up to the image that covenant of death provides. +1 to hit in melee while you and your opponent have the same ws and you have a "blade" weapon, what is that? kind of pathetic really. Its a shame the dark angels don't have something that portrays them as the disciplined fighting force they were, something like the Ultra Marine, or Imperial fist right of war would have been cool.

 

going off on a tangent for a moment I was really hoping that their legion rules would let them over watch on bs 3 and that they would have a right of war like day  of revelations but with drop pods. All Drop pods come in turn 1, all legion dark angels get counter attack, and all infantry must take a drop pod. alas it was not to be. 

[Charlo]

My guess is that the legion specific stuff is going to absolutely wreck face, with plenty of archeotech everywhere ripping it up. Hence the covenant of death rules.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah, we get crappy rules, but I imagine that the gear, special units, and the remaining wing rules are absolutely going to be broken as hell :D

 

I've played vanilla dark Angels legion for a number of years, so I'm not too disappointed. If you can't beat them vanilla, then the legion rules are a crutch in my snotty opinion :P

[The Lord of Iron]

Not trying to power game. its just legion rules add flavor and make the heresy fun to play. every legion has their thing that they do better than anyone. Imperial fist gun lines, World eaters massed charges, death guard slowly advancing death, etc. its fun to have your legion play a very certain way and compete with other legions.

 

Imperial fist vs Iron warriors

Ultra marines vs Alpha Legion

Blood angels vs World eaters 

 

for example

[depthcharge12]

Not trying to power game. its just legion rules add flavor and make the heresy fun to play. every legion has their thing that they do better than anyone. Imperial fist gun lines, World eaters massed charges, death guard slowly advancing death, etc. its fun to have your legion play a very certain way and compete with other legions.

 

Imperial fist vs Iron warriors

Ultra marines vs Alpha Legion

Blood angels vs World eaters

 

for example

We are essentially...the Ghostbusters of monster hunting. All of our weapons and RoW point to that. We kill big bad bugs and robots like we get paid to do it.

[The Lord of Iron]

 

Not trying to power game. its just legion rules add flavor and make the heresy fun to play. every legion has their thing that they do better than anyone. Imperial fist gun lines, World eaters massed charges, death guard slowly advancing death, etc. its fun to have your legion play a very certain way and compete with other legions.

 

Imperial fist vs Iron warriors

Ultra marines vs Alpha Legion

Blood angels vs World eaters

 

for example

We are essentially...the Ghostbusters of monster hunting. All of our weapons and RoW point to that. We kill big bad bugs and robots like we get paid to do it.

 

 

I don't say this very often, but you sir win the internet. Seriously best description of a legion I've heard to date.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I don't think that Ironwing lacks mass infantry removal when Plasma, Melta, Flamestorm Preds, Medusa, Scorpius, Leviathans, Fire Raptors, Sunfury Lightning Strike Fighters, Quad Mortar Batteries, Other Dreadnoughts, and Typhon are still options.

 

I'm not sure what to say, really.