[HH1.0] Dark Angels Tactics

[Frater Cornelius]

That is fair, but Scars can also take Vets, Lightning and Grav Speeders. Granted, the Rad Tartaros are unique to DA (Forgelord notwithstanding). However, you lack such awesome tools like both Sicaran variants, Infantry support for objectives and heavy fire support in general (outside of Javelin Speeders). That is what concerns me.

[Lord Blackwood]

It is extremely powerful  if you  roll well on acid bolters  and  have the right tools  ( like javelins  , lightnings ,  xiphons )  to get through armor. 

My ravenwing list has performed pretty well at the 2500  points range , though  armor is one of your main concerns here. 

Seriously considering the multimelta Jet bikes. 

As far as it being an expensive buy in , cant argue against that. 

Though for outriders you can cut corners by buying Ravenwing Bikers   or Black Knights if you are taking plasma. 

[Frater Cornelius]

It is extremely powerful  if you  roll well on acid bolters  and  have the right tools  ( like javelins  , lightnings ,  xiphons )  to get through armor. 

 

My ravenwing list has performed pretty well at the 2500  points range , though  armor is one of your main concerns here. 

 

Seriously considering the multimelta Jet bikes. 

 

As far as it being an expensive buy in , cant argue against that. 

 

Though for outriders you can cut corners by buying Ravenwing Bikers   or Black Knights if you are taking plasma. 

 

What lists did you run?

[Lord Blackwood]

i took two javelins  a xiphon  two sets of  outriders ( one with plasma that didint quite perform as well as I would like )  and the other the more standard  3 swords and rad grenades set up ( which performed about as well as you would imagine )    A unit of jetbikes  with acid shells  and two volkite which was OK  a  big expensive close combat   preator  w command squad on jetbikes with acid shells ( which was surprisingly effective , but obviously would fold to something like a Typhon  )  

A dreadclaw with 4 combi melta Cataprachtii which were surprisingly useful 

Not a worldbeater set up by any means   think of it like a shooty TWC list in that youll be outnumbered but your units can do some really good stuff 
But also lookat it like more fragile TWC since you dont have any of the extra jink shenanigans of modern day ravenwing 

Being able to move off the board and come back outflanking with jetbikes and speeders is also quite useful  

I feel like  If I were going to tune the list a bit better id cut out the really expensive close combat star  (  but ill never do that cause its just fun to use) 
And focus on putting more outriders / jetbikes on the table. 

The army feels  anemic at times because as you mentioned you dont get as many things to put on the board. 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Bladewolf

[Frater Cornelius]

A'ight, did some random dice rolling and dry testing and, wow, I really underestimated the effect of Acid HB on the Jetbikes. That is pure infantry slaughter. Together with Speeders of both kinds and Flyers it seems to have the bases covered. But here is the question: is the restriction of the RWP worth giving up a balanced list? You can get Jetbikes with Acid HB there as well, but also arguably more solid anti-tank with Thud Guns, Dread Talons, Infantry blobs with FnP and Sicaran variants. I suppose the same question can be asked for Ironwing, which is sort of the other extreme.

[Charlo]

A'ight, did some random dice rolling and dry testing and, wow, I really underestimated the effect of Acid HB on the Jetbikes. That is pure infantry slaughter. Together with Speeders of both kinds and Flyers it seems to have the bases covered. But here is the question: is the restriction of the RWP worth giving up a balanced list? You can get Jetbikes with Acid HB there as well, but also arguably more solid anti-tank with Thud Guns, Dread Talons, Infantry blobs with FnP and Sicaran variants. I suppose the same question can be asked for Ironwing, which is sort of the other extreme.

 

Infantry blobs for one (that you keep mentioning to me in PM too :P) just aren't that great. Sure you can give them FNP - but things that cull them aren't giving them a FNP save anyway....

 

You give up rapiers, sure - but instead you have Javelins, Xiphons, Lightnings & Sky-Slayer Melta Bikes for AT.

 

Ironwing is a lot less restrictive - you just put your stuff in Rhinos and can still have up to 4/5 non-tank choices (3HS Tanks, Damocles, Super-Heavy Tank if FW emails are believed).

 

You can still find balance - it's just in a different way or using units that not everyone considers super-premier-choice-#1

[depthcharge12]

My current 2500 IW list right now is really less restricted honestly, I wish dreads didn't count against the vehicles but c'est la vie:

 

Praetor

5 power fist cataphractii

Spartan DT

 

10 marines

Rhino

 

10 marines

Rhino

 

10 vets with acid HBs, marksmen, 3 power swords

Rhino

 

Leviathan

 

Scorpius

 

Las vindicator

 

Fellblade

 

Honestly nothing really scares this list, I mean a Primarch could do some damage, but due to the mobility and firepower of the list, he'll get surrounded and shot down and/or assaulted by the terminators and Levi. Marines in this list are perfect for bubble wrap and close range shooting due to the bonuses. I originally had two contemptors instead of the leviathan, who'd be more effective, but I just think the Levi is cool and fluffy, not to mention a pain in the butt combined with a Spartan and Fellblade.

[Sulemain]

The Ironwing lists strikes me as one that relies alot more on mass armoured assault then using singular more powerful armoured units. Interlocking fire means LD Vindicator squadrons just kill things dead, whilst exterminators means that bringing lots in Despoiler Squads in Rhinos is the way forward. It's very much an Mechanised Infantry force, as opposed to an armoured cavalry one. 

[depthcharge12]

The Ironwing lists strikes me as one that relies alot more on mass armoured assault then using singular more powerful armoured units. Interlocking fire means LD Vindicator squadrons just kill things dead, whilst exterminators means that bringing lots in Despoiler Squads in Rhinos is the way forward. It's very much an Mechanised Infantry force, as opposed to an armoured cavalry one.

Yeah, I figure an ideal list would be:

 

Land Raider Phobos Squadron

x3 Phobos

 

2 despoiler squads

 

5 terminators

 

3 Contemptor cortus with kheres assault cannon and DCCW

 

Sicaran

 

Damocles Rhino

 

HQ

 

Vindicator squad

 

 

BS5 land raiders and vindicators; tank hunting, fear causing dreads; close shooty assault units to tie up threats.

[Hexagon Sun]

Yeah, I figure an ideal list would be:

 

Land Raider Phobos Squadron

x3 Phobos

 

2 despoiler squads

 

5 terminators

 

3 Contemptor cortus with kheres assault cannon and DCCW

 

Sicaran

 

Damocles Rhino

 

HQ

 

Vindicator squad

 

 

BS5 land raiders and vindicators; tank hunting, fear causing dreads; close shooty assault units to tie up threats.

You'd need to make one of the raiders a dedicated transport for the terminators to offset both the infantry and dreads. But that sounds like an interesting list!

 

I was going for tac squads and a vet squad in rhinos but it's got me thinking now...

[depthcharge12]

 

Yeah, I figure an ideal list would be:

 

Land Raider Phobos Squadron

x3 Phobos

 

2 despoiler squads

 

5 terminators

 

3 Contemptor cortus with kheres assault cannon and DCCW

 

Sicaran

 

Damocles Rhino

 

HQ

 

Vindicator squad

 

 

BS5 land raiders and vindicators; tank hunting, fear causing dreads; close shooty assault units to tie up threats.

You'd need to make one of the raiders a dedicated transport for the terminators to offset both the infantry and dreads. But that sounds like an interesting list!

 

I was going for tac squads and a vet squad in rhinos but it's got me thinking now...

True :)

 

I'm running two despoiler squads, a vet squad, and 5 man terminator squad. All but the terminators are in a rhino but the more I think about it, some Proteii and Phobos might be nice.

[caladancid]

I have a pretty hard time thinking about Ironwing lists without more than one unit of multiple tanks to take advantage of the BS 5. How do the mechanized infantry aspects beat that bonus?

[Charlo]

Seekers are kind of hilarious in Ironwing - not only do you get extra dudes in rhinos that cover themselves, but those to wound bonuses are great with special ammo.

[depthcharge12]

Kinda wish Ironwing unlocked acid heavy bolters for vehicles...it'd vaporize NL infantry spam and make them cry sweet Nostroman tears :devil:

[Charlo]

Kinda wish Ironwing unlocked acid heavy bolters for vehicles...it'd vaporize NL infantry spam and make them cry sweet Nostroman tears

 

I'm hoping one of the benefits of Dreadwing is that it allows just that....

[rendingon1+]

Seekers are kind of hilarious in Ironwing - not only do you get extra dudes in rhinos that cover themselves, but those to wound bonuses are great with special ammo.

Not really. Sure their special ammo gets a minor boost but you take seekers because of scorpius/combi.  Scorpius get's nothing, kraken is just a heavy bolter (which you can get in spades from other sources) and if you're using tempest it means your seekers are as good as dead next turn (and multi S4 with virtually no AP is better served by rotor suppport squad). Unless you play vs non astartes they are not worth it imho.

[Charlo]

 

Seekers are kind of hilarious in Ironwing - not only do you get extra dudes in rhinos that cover themselves, but those to wound bonuses are great with special ammo.

Not really. Sure their special ammo gets a minor boost but you take seekers because of scorpius/combi.  Scorpius get's nothing, kraken is just a heavy bolter (which you can get in spades from other sources) and if you're using tempest it means your seekers are as good as dead next turn (and multi S4 with virtually no AP is better served by rotor suppport squad). Unless you play vs non astartes they are not worth it imho.

 

I disagree - Scorpius is effectively S6 AP2 within 12", not bad at all!

 

Plus Rotors are only S3, and two blasts per marine at effectively S4 is going to hurt something.

 

You also don't buy Combi's on them in Ironwing - keep them cheap and hurt what you can - just a way to maximise those fast attack slots.

[rendingon1+]

 

 

Seekers are kind of hilarious in Ironwing - not only do you get extra dudes in rhinos that cover themselves, but those to wound bonuses are great with special ammo.

Not really. Sure their special ammo gets a minor boost but you take seekers because of scorpius/combi.  Scorpius get's nothing, kraken is just a heavy bolter (which you can get in spades from other sources) and if you're using tempest it means your seekers are as good as dead next turn (and multi S4 with virtually no AP is better served by rotor suppport squad). Unless you play vs non astartes they are not worth it imho.

 

I disagree - Scorpius is effectively S6 AP2 within 12", not bad at all!

 

Plus Rotors are only S3, and two blasts per marine at effectively S4 is going to hurt something.

 

You also don't buy Combi's on them in Ironwing - keep them cheap and hurt what you can - just a way to maximise those fast attack slots.

 

Scorpius does not benefit from Exterminators because it's heavy.

 

Rotors are S4 because they are salvo. Greater range (even on first profile) triple when stationary. 3/4 shots.

 

You do take them when you need them :) Depends on what you want them to do. I definitelly won't take expensive seekers just to drown the enemy in a hail of crappy shots. Might work against hordes (again - rotors re better and cheaper).

[depthcharge12]

Well I just got a game in with vanilla dark Angels (my vehicles are not all in yet to run Ironwing :/) for 2500 points.

 

Things I took away:

 

1.) Walking Leviathan is a deadly thing, even with 18" range. Got first turn shots and the ability to charge turn 2 or 3. It could be said I wasted my first shots on a Javelin, but the dang thing could harass and destroy my valuable armor, even with its lower point cost. Humorously I rolled an 11 with the grav flux bombard to get double hull points on the Javelin to take it out :D though I'm sure the volkites could have finished it off if need be. It soaked up a ton of fire as it should, and having it walk instead of pod in meant that only AV13 was facing towards the enemy at all times, and no cover saves were givin to the enemy. While it didn't fully earn its points back till the end by eradicating an anti armor breached squad at the end, its intangible value as a psychological tool and firepower more than made up for it.

 

 

2.) Veteran sniper Dark Angels.

...holy Emperor these guys. I didn't even have the benefits from Ironwing. Equipped with 3 power swords, 2 acid HBs, and a stasis launcher on the sgt, they arrived T2 and completely nope'd an enemy veteran squad in THE SHOOTING PHASE. Double tap rending bolters are just sin. The stasis grenades launcher (ok so I barely scattered the entire game with any of my ordinance blasts) rolled 2 rends and like 2 regular saves and killed 3 dudes. The acid bolters I rolled last and I felt dirty using them after everything else had killed 8 marines.

 

Use this squad in extremis brothers. They are meant to obliterate important MEQs and Monstrous Creatures. If you have the Emperor's blessing, spam combi- stasis grenades launchers with rending and watch heretics poop their spiky underwear.

 

3.) jetbike acid bolters

Performed meh for me this game, but that's RNGesus for you. Good inexpensive infantry harassment unit.

 

4.)Deredeo

Doesn't need much to explain. Kicked over a Sicaran's sand castle, shoved a Javelin in a locker, and beat up some marines for their lunch money. Didn't even get a chance to use the acid HBs on it.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Well I just got a game in with vanilla dark Angels (my vehicles are not all in yet to run Ironwing :/) for 2500 points.

 

Things I took away:

 

1.) Walking Leviathan is a deadly thing, even with 18" range. Got first turn shots and the ability to charge turn 2 or 3. It could be said I wasted my first shots on a Javelin, but the dang thing could harass and destroy my valuable armor, even with its lower point cost. Humorously I rolled an 11 with the grav flux bombard to get double hull points on the Javelin to take it out though I'm sure the volkites could have finished it off if need be. It soaked up a ton of fire as it should, and having it walk instead of pod in meant that only AV13 was facing towards the enemy at all times, and no cover saves were givin to the enemy. While it didn't fully earn its points back till the end by eradicating an anti armor breached squad at the end, its intangible value as a psychological tool and firepower more than made up for it.

 

 

2.) Veteran sniper Dark Angels.

...holy Emperor these guys. I didn't even have the benefits from Ironwing. Equipped with 3 power swords, 2 acid HBs, and a stasis launcher on the sgt, they arrived T2 and completely nope'd an enemy veteran squad in THE SHOOTING PHASE. Double tap rending bolters are just sin. The stasis grenades launcher (ok so I barely scattered the entire game with any of my ordinance blasts) rolled 2 rends and like 2 regular saves and killed 3 dudes. The acid bolters I rolled last and I felt dirty using them after everything else had killed 8 marines.

 

Use this squad in extremis brothers. They are meant to obliterate important MEQs and Monstrous Creatures. If you have the Emperor's blessing, spam combi- stasis grenades launchers with rending and watch heretics poop their spiky underwear.

 

3.) jetbike acid bolters

Performed meh for me this game, but that's RNGesus for you. Good inexpensive infantry harassment unit.

 

4.)Deredeo

Doesn't need much to explain. Kicked over a Sicaran's sand castle, shoved a Javelin in a locker, and beat up some marines for their lunch money. Didn't even get a chance to use the acid HBs on it.

 

You can only use Acid rounds on models with LA rules. None on vehicules

[depthcharge12]

 

 

Well I just got a game in with vanilla dark Angels (my vehicles are not all in yet to run Ironwing :/) for 2500 points.

 

Things I took away:

 

1.) Walking Leviathan is a deadly thing, even with 18" range. Got first turn shots and the ability to charge turn 2 or 3. It could be said I wasted my first shots on a Javelin, but the dang thing could harass and destroy my valuable armor, even with its lower point cost. Humorously I rolled an 11 with the grav flux bombard to get double hull points on the Javelin to take it out though I'm sure the volkites could have finished it off if need be. It soaked up a ton of fire as it should, and having it walk instead of pod in meant that only AV13 was facing towards the enemy at all times, and no cover saves were givin to the enemy. While it didn't fully earn its points back till the end by eradicating an anti armor breached squad at the end, its intangible value as a psychological tool and firepower more than made up for it.

 

 

2.) Veteran sniper Dark Angels.

...holy Emperor these guys. I didn't even have the benefits from Ironwing. Equipped with 3 power swords, 2 acid HBs, and a stasis launcher on the sgt, they arrived T2 and completely nope'd an enemy veteran squad in THE SHOOTING PHASE. Double tap rending bolters are just sin. The stasis grenades launcher (ok so I barely scattered the entire game with any of my ordinance blasts) rolled 2 rends and like 2 regular saves and killed 3 dudes. The acid bolters I rolled last and I felt dirty using them after everything else had killed 8 marines.

 

Use this squad in extremis brothers. They are meant to obliterate important MEQs and Monstrous Creatures. If you have the Emperor's blessing, spam combi- stasis grenades launchers with rending and watch heretics poop their spiky underwear.

 

3.) jetbike acid bolters

Performed meh for me this game, but that's RNGesus for you. Good inexpensive infantry harassment unit.

 

4.)Deredeo

Doesn't need much to explain. Kicked over a Sicaran's sand castle, shoved a Javelin in a locker, and beat up some marines for their lunch money. Didn't even get a chance to use the acid HBs on it.

You can only use Acid rounds on models with LA rules. None on vehicules

Dreadnought units with twin linked heavy bolters may take acid rounds :) or models with legion Astartes. Vehicles can't though. Looking at the rules right now ;)

[Fallen11]

Hi

Can you just clarify something about acid rounds. Does ap work like:

hit, wound and then roll 1 d6 to see ap for every round that wounded enemy OR do you roll ap for every wound separately? Meaning if you lets say do 10 hits, wound 8 times, then you would roll 8d6 to see ap for every round separately?

[depthcharge12]

Hi

 

Can you just clarify something about acid rounds. Does ap work like:

 

hit, wound and then roll 1 d6 to see ap for every round that wounded enemy OR do you roll ap for every wound separately? Meaning if you lets say do 10 hits, wound 8 times, then you would roll 8d6 to see ap for every round separately?

I've found it to be most logical and average when you roll to hit, roll to wound, and then roll for AP.

 

So 10 hits, 8 wounds, 8d6 for individual ap as you've said.

[Erren]

I'm not sure there's a RAW here, and I'm further uncertain it would make a statistical difference however you resolve it. My preferred method is:

1) select target and figure out what armor saves they might be using

2) roll ap for each bolter firing

3) divide my dice pool between dice they will and dice they won't get their armor save (you might need 3 pools if there are mixed saves)

4) roll to hit with each pool

5) roll to wound

[depthcharge12]

I'm not sure there's a RAW here, and I'm further uncertain it would make a statistical difference however you resolve it. My preferred method is:

1) select target and figure out what armor saves they might be using

2) roll ap for each bolter firing

3) divide my dice pool between dice they will and dice they won't get their armor save (you might need 3 pools if there are mixed saves)

4) roll to hit with each pool

5) roll to wound

You'd be rolling unneeded dice lol. Just roll to hit, to wound, and anything left over you roll for AP :) I don't know why some people suggest rolling 1d6 for the entire pool or one model either, it can get silly from wiping out an entire squad of terminators to doing absolutely nothing against guardsmen.