[HH1.0] Dark Angels Tactics

[Withershadow]

Rolling 8 individual APs for your 8 wounds also seems like rolling unnecessary dice that don't actually reflect what is happening. I would say roll one die for AP for the unit, and call it a day.

[depthcharge12]

Rolling 8 individual APs for your 8 wounds also seems like rolling unnecessary dice that don't actually reflect what is happening. I would say roll one die for AP for the unit, and call it a day.

That actually doesn't reflect what's going on, it'd be like instead rolling for an assault cannon and just being like ok yeah all these are going to rend. All the acid shells don't agree before they're fired out of the gun to be a certain AP, it represents the acid reacting in various ways in the each shell. You could wind up with all 1's which would piss off your opponent to no end, or wind up with all 5's and 6's and hate your life.

 

I've been playing many games with these rules since they've come out, trust me that there's a much easier way that won't make you or your opponent hate them.

[Withershadow]

Rolling 8 different APs that may have come from as few as 3 weapons does not reflect what is going on.

 

You either go for accuracy, which means separate dice pools for each model like with plasma gun units.

 

Or you go for speed of resolution and roll one die. Yeah there will be swings, that's the nature of the game. A grot can survive a D cannon if you roll a 1.

[depthcharge12]

WS: Rolling 8 different APs that may have come from as few as 3 weapons does not reflect what is going on.

 

Restating my words and then not explaining why it isn't is not a good rebuttal. It's just, "man I feels this so youzs wrong man."

 

You either go for accuracy, which means separate dice pools for each model like with plasma gun units.

 

completely fine as well but takes up valuable game time and drags the game out. I put forth a streamlined version that no opponent has issue with, but if you want to take longer to do it and your opponent is cool with it, then go for it

 

Or you go for speed of resolution and roll one die. Yeah there will be swings, that's the nature of the game. A grot can survive a D cannon if you roll a 1.

 

I won't even go into how silly D weapons become, and I play games with multiple titans regularly and against them. Hence why FW put out their own version that's not as ludicrous. Roll one die if you like, but trust me, it just sounds goofy both in fluff and actuality, and you won't find opponents when your Ravenwing list rolls nothing but ones and twos for AP in a match (33% of the time you'll flat out just ignore armor)

 

Not trying to be a jerk, but I've played quite a few games with all the Dark Angel weapons mechanics, and I've found the AP roll separately to be the most expedient and fair. I'll stop responding to the acid thing now because we've beat this horse a dozen times or more.

[Baluc]

As per the rulebook, like any weapon with different values you rule dice in pools. Determine Ap value for each gun, and then roll them in pools, all the Ap1, all the Ap2 etc resolving as the controlling player determines.

 

Unfortunetly Depthcharge12 your method could result in vastly different results than what the rules would normal determine, nor does that method fall under the fast rolling mechanics found at the start of the BRB. Imagine you shoot 20 shots form 10 guns, what if all your Ap1, 2 an 3 guns miss their shots or fail to wound, but your Ap 4,5,6 all hit and wound. Or similarly one gun shooting at 2 different AP values. That Tactical squad is going to have vastly different end to its day.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Baluc

[depthcharge12]

A.) that's illogic as heck, it's like rolling for rending first before determining to hit

 

B.) all this above stuff about the mechanics should be deleted as it has nothing to do with tactics, and everything to do with rules

 

C.) what tactics do you guys have to add to this thread?

 

D.) sorry I had to add this just to add to the stupidity of how this being thought through, what if you have marksmen veteran squads with a couple acid heavy bolters (I run this in my list)? You now have rending acid heavy bolters, so what happens if you roll for AP, then miss with those shots? But then what if the shots had rending as per sniper? How would you know? It now becomes even more encumbered, annoying, and slows the game down. Just pure silliness. Roll to hit, roll to wound, roll for AP.

Edited January 23, 2017 by depthcharge12

[shandwen]

A.) that's illogic as heck, it's like rolling for rending first before determining to hit

-RAW each weapon determines its AP value when shooting, not each round. So the quickest way to determine it is pools before shooting.

B.) all this above stuff about the mechanics should be deleted as it has nothing to do with tactics, and everything to do with rules

-This has to do with tactics of speeding gameplay. Rules are involved as people don't want to play illegally.

C.) what tactics do you guys have to add to this thread?

-Tactics of speeding gameplay.

D.) sorry I had to add this just to add to the stupidity of how this being thought through, what if you have marksmen veteran squads with a couple acid heavy bolters (I run this in my list)? You now have rending acid heavy bolters, so what happens if you roll for AP, then miss with those shots? But then what if the shots had rending as per sniper? How would you know? It now becomes even more encumbered, annoying, and slows the game down. Just pure silliness. Roll to hit, roll to wound, roll for AP.

-If you have sniper then you 1) roll for AP 2) roll to hit with each pool 3) roll to wound with each pool 4) shift any rends to the AP1/2 pool. Easy. Breezy. Covergirl.

 

[depthcharge12]

1.)RAW it just says roll every time the weapon is fired, not before to hit rolls. So nope.

 

2.) tactics of speeding gameplay? It slows it down. And speeding up dice rolls is not a tactic. Would you like to discuss the speed tactic of rolling in a dice tray too? :P maybe you should add that to each of the different tacticas

[Baluc]

1.)RAW it just says roll every time the weapon is fired, not before to hit rolls. So nope.

 

2.) tactics of speeding gameplay? It slows it down. And speeding up dice rolls is not a tactic. Would you like to discuss the speed tactic of rolling in a dice tray too? maybe you should add that to each of the different tacticas

 

Exactly, your interpretation would need it to say "roll for each successful wound roll" or some such language. Its best practice to resolve the profile of an attack or shot before rolling a shot or attack. And, lets be honest there can be at best 6 pools of Ap value against a highly mixed unit. But against infantry that drops to 2 or 3 pools only. Those that ignore artificer armour, those that ignore power armour and those that don't ignore anything.  Ap 1-2, Ap3, and Ap4+, hardly the labour you are make it out to be. 

[Charlo]

I'd say you have to roll when the weapon is fired, or then it can get quite messy and inaccurate...

 

Example:

 

You have a Heavy Support Squad with 5 Acid HB

Before firing you roll the  AP value of the weapons (so 5 dice) and get 1/2/3/4/5

You then roll to hit and then to wound, with (depending on the enemy saves) each set of dice separately. Against marines you'd just group the AP1/2/3 together and the AP4/5 together.

Because of this, each heavy bolter is only ever dealing the correct damage, a maximum of three hits all at the same AP. (The really important part).

 

If you were to roll the AP after hits and wound there is a serious disparity, for one, you a rolling more dice as you turn 5 HB into up to 15 different AP rolls.

This means that a single heavy bolter could get an AP2/5/6 for its wounds, which just isn't right. Plus you are rolling a lot more AP dice overall.

[Agni]

Forgeworld answered that you roll once per unit

[Charlo]

Forgeworld answered that you roll once per unit

 

Source? It has not come up yet and doesn't make sense to roll once per unit when it says weapon.

[rendingon1+]

So...tactics. I'll give you one :)

If your opponent overuses rapiers/quads always take a 5 man acidbikes. Yesterday I managed to take down a battery of 3 rapiers in a single round (thanks to rerolls to hit from librarian and good ap rolls, but still). Deep strike and hbolter range helps greatly (most Legion interceptor range is 18"). I dare say acidbikes are the most effctive method in eliminating artillery in all the HH.

[Withershadow]

I'll see that bet and raise you a grav flux leviathan.

[rendingon1+]

haha, I forgot Leviathan!

 

BUT

 

290 pts if on foot (flux range is 18" while acidbolters are 36") and almost 400+ pts in a drop pod if you want to deep strike .

5 Jetbikes with acid shells are 230 with inbuilt deep strike and awesome mobility.

 

If rapier hunting was the only objective, I'd still pick jetbikers.

[depthcharge12]

So...tactics. I'll give you one :)

If your opponent overuses rapiers/quads always take a 5 man acidbikes. Yesterday I managed to take down a battery of 3 rapiers in a single round (thanks to rerolls to hit from librarian and good ap rolls, but still). Deep strike and hbolter range helps greatly (most Legion interceptor range is 18"). I dare say acidbikes are the most effctive method in eliminating artillery in all the HH.

Omg yes. They are perfect for those annoying quad launchers that everyone and their battle brother seems to use.

 

Honestly, I think the dark angels have the best ability to take out the majority of other legion armies with exception to speciality assault units, but you can drown them in acid rounds or try to utilize fear causing dreadnoughts from IW.

[Lord Blackwood]

This is why i love my ravenwing list so much , Acid heavy bolters ruin peoples days ,  when folks cry too much about me using tanks ,  this is the list I  choose to run instead. 

[depthcharge12]

This is why i love my ravenwing list so much , Acid heavy bolters ruin peoples days ,  when folks cry too much about me using tanks ,  this is the list I  choose to run instead.

 

Honestly, the wargear and Protocols are the only thing that keeps us competitive. Our legion rules are detrimental and usually not helpful in the first place. That being said, we are quite limited in what we can bring if we go this route, and we give up VPs with Covenant of Death if the game doesn't go your way.

[Lord Blackwood]

I agree , its sorta why I think  the most agressive playstyle possible regardless of list is the best way to go about things with our legion. 

[rendingon1+]

Ravenwing is my favorite DA raw, unfortunately as Depthcharge mentioned, I almost always give my opponent Covenant VPs. I think I'm going to invest in more than one flyer (I have Xiphon) but not sure which one to choose. I'm thinking about Raptor since it can handle medium vehicles and mow down meq (all at the same time hahaha), on the other hand lightning is more versatile (krakens vs heavy, sunfury/phospex vs mobs/teq) and is cheaper. So my questions are:

1.What would you take?

2. If you're already using lightning/raptor - pleeeease share you experience

 

Also do you think acidbolters are on a nerf list? I wonder if I should invest in more jetbikes (have 15 now + 10 eldar pattern proxies lol) or groundbikes which I don't like? What's your experience with outriders (assuming you use them in the first place)?

Edited January 26, 2017 by rendingon1+

[Erren]

I've used plasma outriders. They mess stuff up, but cost way too many points for their survivability imo. I'll probably avoid using them in the future. Next ground bikes I build will be kitted out for CC. Might make them a command squad for the 2+.

 

I like the Fire Raptor over the Lightning in a Ravenwing list. It's one of the few HS choices available and I'm usually tight on FA choices because I like Acid Attack Bikes, Javelins, Dreadclaws, and Grav Speeders.

[Agni]

 

 

Forgeworld answered that you roll once per unit

Source? It has not come up yet and doesn't make sense to roll once per unit when it says weapon.

Should check through my email. But that is in the rule book.

Acid states that you should roll AP each time the weapon is fired and rulebook states that the same weapon shoots at the same time. We have only one profile-poison 2+ 2/d6.

[rendingon1+]

I've used plasma outriders. They mess stuff up, but cost way too many points for their survivability imo. I'll probably avoid using them in the future. Next ground bikes I build will be kitted out for CC. Might make them a command squad for the 2+.

 

I like the Fire Raptor over the Lightning in a Ravenwing list. It's one of the few HS choices available and I'm usually tight on FA choices because I like Acid Attack Bikes, Javelins, Dreadclaws, and Grav Speeders.

That's also my experience with outriders. They are just too expensive for their 3+ and special weapons whih cnnot be mixed and everyone has to take them (major flaw imho). Besides with jetbikes I don't have to take these damn dangerous terrrain tests.

 

Fire Rapt

[Fallen11]

So after seeing rawenwing protocols rite of war, you are not allowed to have non skimers/flyer units, infantry must be in flyers, BUT you are allowed to have artilery units in it that are on board, makes total sense,lol

[shandwen]

So after seeing rawenwing protocols rite of war, you are not allowed to have non skimers/flyer units, infantry must be in flyers, BUT you are allowed to have artilery units in it that are on board, makes total sense,lol

That is a huge oversight by FW. Hahahaha