4th edition doctrines

[Altasmurf]

The reason for this thread is three fold.

One to reminisce about years and rules gone by.

Two to bring attention to the doctrine thread I have going on in Home Brew Rules Section. (man guy has to sneak an add in eh)

And three consider whether or not doctrine should even be around?

 

To the first point. The 4th edition codex was by far my favourite codex. Tonnes of variety, different useful units and doctrines. Doctrines meant that even your humble infantry platoon was a little bit special. I loved them, yes the implementation needed work but theconcept was solid. Then 5th came and doctrines went away replaced by orders and special characters. I liked the 5th codex two guard armies could play different. No with 6th the homogenization of codex has made it a little bland. Yes the bare bones of the codex is solid but there is no real creative spark. Yeah I might play my catachans a bit more aggressive then your Cadians but in the end our infantry patoons aren't that different.

 

As to point 2, I such at the Internet and as such I don't know how to link threads, but I am looking for feedback on some doctrine rules a friend and I have been working on. If you check it out thanks for looking and leave me your thoughts.

 

Lastly point 3 I just want to hear your opinion. Will doctrines ruin the codex or is there a place for a little variety?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I think doctrines should make a comeback. I'd like to see Regimental Doctrines implemented similarly to Space Marine chapter tactics. Catachans would get a set of rules that makes them play differently than Cadians, and both would play different than Mordians or Vostroyans or Valhallans or Tallarn or Steel legion. I'd love to see more variety in how the armies play, and I'd like to see the old model ranges get resurrected with new plastic sculpts. 

 

I'd love to have plastic kasrkin to use for my vets and stormtroopers, because Painting up the Scions like Kasrkin looks goofy. I'd like to see steel legion get plastics so that we have some trenchers, because cadians are boring. 

 

I think that doctrines would have to be army wide like chapter tactics, and not on a unit by unit basis, except on vets where their current doctrines are fine. Maybe expand those doctrines to include the platoon, a 15 point upgrade to give your infantry squad a 4+ save, or 10 points to give them +1 cover. Things like that would be great, but also army wide benefits too, like say catachans get infiltrate and move through cover, but can't take carapace armor. And Cadians might get +1BS when all models in a unit are in base contact with each other, and get preferred enemy Chaos. Steel legion might get free chimeras for infantry platoons as long as every infantry squad and platoon command squad takes one, and gains preferred enemy orks when led by Yarrick. 

 

Things like that would be cool, Also giving stormies their Close combat weapons and pistols back would be a plus, and a 2 point upgrade for vets to take Hotshot lasguns, would also be pretty cool. 

 

Under that scheme:

Carapace vet with Hotshot lasgun would be 6 points base, 2 for the hotshot, and 1.5 for the Carapace, for 9.5ppm. 

Stormtrooper would be 13ppm for a, HSLG, HSLP, CCW, deep strike and MTC. Which results in an extra attack and reliable deep strike, he's still 3.5 points more base than a kitted out veteran, which is still significant.

 

Vets have all but replaced stormies in most lists because Stormies now offer less than they used to. Have them offer more like some close combat ability and give them the option to swap deep strike for scout or infiltrate, and give them pinning. That would make them much more useful and GW would sell more of them. It would also make us a bit more competitive having a unit that can force morale checks. 

 

We don't need a bunch more unique units, just the ability to make the units we used to love. 

[WarriorFish]

The Guard is he most diverse force in he entire games, it's a shame that there's little to show for it. Doctrines in some form would go a long way to that, some overarching regimental system would be great. There is a lot that could be done but it depends on implementation as it could easily go wrong.

 

I hope there is something, I miss the customisability...

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Like I said, I'd like to see veteran doctrines extended to the Infantry platoon, and see vets get some additional upgrades, like hotshot lasguns, so you can make Kasrkin (who are supposed to be Cadian Vets, not stormtroopers), or Grenadiers (like what Krieg and the Steel legion would have). Also having forward sentries gain scout or infliltrate as well as camo gear and snare mines so that the name actually means something, but still having the base 5+ armor save. The way to keep this from becoming overpowered is to limit doctrines to one per squad. So if you take Grenadiers, you can't take Forward Sentries or Demolitions. That way each squad can have a different mission, like a Carapace infantry squad might be a basic rifle squad with a heavy weapon for a gunline, or they might be footslogging with sentinels (Like in the Emperor's Shield infantry Platoon). Where a Forward sentries squad might be for getting that heavy weapon up the field into cover or early objective capping. 

 

A Regimental Doctrine rule that allows units to benefit from the doctrine would also help out with variety. Here's my thoughts on what regiments should get what:

 

Cadians: Get +1BS while models in a unit are in base contact with each other (including overwatch), Auto pistol and Combat knife for all non character infantry models, frag and krak grenades on all infantry models. 

 

Catachans: Infiltrate and Move Through Cover, cannot take carapace armor, +1 Toughness. 

 

Tallarn: Hit and run, +1 Initiative, cannot take carapace armor. All officers may issue "Forwards for the Emperor!" in addition to any other orders they have each turn.

 

Mordians: Relentless, but cannot make run moves. +1 Leadership

 

Steel Legion: If an infantry platoon contains 5 infantry squads each squad can take a chimera at no points cost, but must pay for additional upgrades. Preferred Enemy Orks

 

Elysian Drop Troops: May not take vehicles with the tank vehicle type. All infantry models gain deep strike. All infantry models may make morale tests on unmodified leadership if within 12" of an officer. May not take Autocannons or lascannons on heavy weapons teams. 

 

Harakoni Warhawks: May not take vehicles with the tank vehicle type. All infantry models gain deep strike. All infantry models may make morale tests on unmodified leadership if within 12" of an officer. Autopistol and Combat knife on all non character infantry models, may not take Infantry platoons. 

 

Valhallans: Stubborn, all units within 6" of an officer gain fearless. Lasguns become Salvo 2/4 weapons. Platoons cannot take carapace armor. Platoons must combine squads where able (units that take dedicated transports do not have to combine), squads must combine to 20 or more models. 

 

Vostroyans: Fearless, +1A, counter attack

 

The only units that would have the Regimental Doctrines rule would be Infantry Squads, Heavy Weapons Squads, Special Weapons Squads, Platoon Command Squads, Company Command Squads, and Veterans. Each regiment would have access to it's specific Regimental Characters, no Pask with Vostroyans, and no Creed with Mordians. 

 

I think this would give us significant playability, and there would be many different options for playing each regiment. For instance Cadians, Warhawks, and Vostroyans geting a bonus attack could be used to charge low initiative armies, or discourage assault from combat focused armies, providing some safety from assaults. Now, it's not going to help as much, but maybe that tau gunline needs to not shoot for a while, or those last few Necron warriors need to die or that warrior squad needs to not shoot, or those remaining orks are charging and you need to kill them off. 

 

These would be nice bonuses, that would really allow people the freedom to play their army the way they want. Which increases our enjoyment of the game, and makes us buy more models. 

[duz_]

Those sound like fun I'd take that

Especially for my relentless mordians with 5 lascannons :-)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Redacted

 

it was a stupid comment please delete this

[morroccomole]

For Mordians: instead of relentless, if they are not in cover-granting terrain they get a 6+ FNP.

[duz_]

Actually the restriction on mordians should be more like

Can't goto ground and cannot run or maybe -1 to their cover save because ducking for cover is cowardice

[greycat]

Gw, really needs to release a box set with great coats and a bunch of different heads. It could be used to make, steel legion, vallhallans, Mordian iron guard and just give more options for unique units.

 

I've converted a bunch of chaos cultists into loyalists who are from a rough imperial world with low tech, hence the autoguns. I did it just to have some variation to the guard.

 

I would like some doctrines too. It would serve to back up the fluff of your own army.

 

I guess we will have to wait for the new codex to see what happens.

[CyderPirate]

Those are some nice suggestions, Ulrik, but I think some of them might be a bit OTT for the amount of bodies we can put on the table. Particularly the +1T for the Catachans, the Vostroyans (that's a really nasty combo of abilities) and the nearly 400 points of free transports for the Steel Legion. The rest are nice and fluffy (I really like the Mordian one!).

 

I'd quite like to see a set of bonuses like those in the HH5 book, with some pre-sets for the known regiments. So you'd get a list of optional add-ons, each with its own points cost, and you'd be able to take 2-3. 

For example: 

Stubborn

Move Through Cover 

Cheaper Chimeras

Preferred Enemy (Codex: Named by Player)

Hatred

Counter Attack

Hit and Run

Tank Hunter

+1WS

Deep Strike

Extra Order/Improved Orders

BS2 Overwatch

Frag&Krak Grenades

 

 

From that list, you could have Steel Legion (Preferred Enemy:Orks, Cheaper Chimeras), Valhallans (Stubborn, Cheaper Chimeras), Cadians (Improved Orders, BS2 Overwatch), Warhawks (Deep Strike, Grenades), Mordians (Stubborn, Counter Attack)

[Altasmurf]

I agree with CyderPirate. The doctrines can't be crazy otherwise they're to abusive. The ones I designed ar similar to Cyder, using USRs to give a small bonus. I think that's the.most straightforward method.

[Vel'Cona]

The only problem I can see with them ever going back to this style of list is that the models for many of these IG sub-factions are mostly OOP.  GW is dead-set against releasing rules for anything they don't currently make the models for, which I think is why they're focusing on Cadians over anything else (though a Catachan detachment could be expected, too).

 

That said, I LOVE the ideas you put forward here and I think it's the sort of thing we can count on FW to do more of once the new IG codex drops.  Here's hoping, anyway!

[CyderPirate]

The only problem I can see with them ever going back to this style of list is that the models for many of these IG sub-factions are mostly OOP.  GW is dead-set against releasing rules for anything they don't currently make the models for, which I think is why they're focusing on Cadians over anything else (though a Catachan detachment could be expected, too).

 

 

They still sell metal Mordians, Valhallans, Steel Legion and Vostroyans on the website, plus there's the plastic Catachans. They also featured heavily in the fluff bit of the most recent codex, so it's not like some things that they've redacted. There's still hope yet!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I based the boosts off of fluff for each regiment. Cadians are well known for being well equipped and trained, so it made sense to give them the auto pistol and combat knife, and giving them +1BS for being in base contact shows them as being better at close order drills, and they get better at shooting, which is especially good for heavy weapons and conscript blobs. 

 

Maybe free chimeras is OP, but I wanted to make Steel Legion easy to mechanize, so cheaper chimeras would be good, maybe Cheaper chimeras and free Tauroxes? The Taurox should really be our Rhino so making it cheaper to start and then making it free would really help Steel legion. But remember, I set up steel legion  so that the platoon must take 5 infantry squads in order to get the free transports, and every squad has to take a chimera if able to do it. How many people have that many bodies, or the desire to field that many bodies in a single troops slot? Remember the Emperor's shield Infantry platoon?

 

 

The only problem I can see with them ever going back to this style of list is that the models for many of these IG sub-factions are mostly OOP.  GW is dead-set against releasing rules for anything they don't currently make the models for, which I think is why they're focusing on Cadians over anything else (though a Catachan detachment could be expected, too).

 

 

They still sell metal Mordians, Valhallans, Steel Legion and Vostroyans on the website, plus there's the plastic Catachans. They also featured heavily in the fluff bit of the most recent codex, so it's not like some things that they've redacted. There's still hope yet!

 

But they no longer produce them. They're selling off back stock. 

[CyderPirate]

 

But they no longer produce them. They're selling off back stock. 

 

 

Damn, I didn't realise. They've had them up that long I thought they'd have run out by now if they were just selling off existing stock. 

[Altasmurf]

I think a system should be created so any one can build their own regiment, and then if they wanted they could build regiments or renown. That way you could use just Cadians to do everything, and then if people have other models they can pick their doctrines regardless of what their models look like.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I think a system should be created so any one can build their own regiment, and then if they wanted they could build regiments or renown. That way you could use just Cadians to do everything, and then if people have other models they can pick their doctrines regardless of what their models look like.

Oh, yeah, there's no reason you couldn't use steel legion rules with cadian models. I just want to see the classic regiment come back, with models so that we have choices in models, because seeing nothing but multicolored cadians is boring.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Here's a thought, on making stormtroopers and vets better.

 

Stormtroopers gain the ability to swap deep strike for infiltrate or scout. Stormies get hotshot laspistols and combat knives or +1 attack. They also can swap their hotshot lasguns for boltguns for free, and they get access to grav guns. Since Stormies are supposed to be better equipped than the majority of guardsmen. 

 

Vets come standard with combat knives and a lasgun. Autopistols/Laspistols can be added for 1 point per model. Grenadiers doctrine for 30 points gives carapace armor and replaces lasgun with Hotshot Lasgun. Grenadier vets would still need a ride to the fight, but they could be used as shock troops

 

Stormtroopers would become useful again, being that they'd be more versatile. Vets would also be a bit more useful. And it's flavorful.

[Altasmurf]

The thing with Vets is that they're already one of the best units in the book. I don't really see a reason to make them even better.

 

Stormies I agree need their pistol and ccw back. But I say leave the bolters and grav to the astartes. I would rather they tweak the Hotshot to be assault 2.

 

I think in the end sadly doctrines are probably done, and just going to be replace by formations. Fingers crossed for a catachan formation one day.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Maybe I'll just go with DKoK Assault Brigade Grenadiers for rules then, seeing as they are already pretty awesome units. Ally in the Flyers I want with the Emperor's spear and my Space Wolves for dreads. Then I get the stormtrooper goodness with WS4 to boot. 

 

I think vets should be more than just +1BS guardsmen with some extras and 2 more SW slots. Does the potential for the +1 attack really mean that much? Sure it can be a surprise when your 10 man squad is chucking out 21 attacks, but it's still hitting on 4's and opponents will either drown you in saves, or go first, still probably drowning you in saves. That's not that OP. 

 

Maybe stormies could do without the bolters and grav, but they need something to really set them apart from veterans that makes them useful as something more than just suicide squads. I mean sure they can take taurox primes at transports, but that doesn't really add much since the darn thing is so overcosted. 

 

I don't think doctrines are completely dead, orders only go so far (since half of them can only be issued by senior officers).

[Altasmurf]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with best being bumped up, it's more a matter of don't break what's not broken. Also really this stuff is all just my opinion so it's not that you're wrong, I just view it a little different.

 

For my self I actually think the way Vets sets work set them apart from infantry squads quite nicely. Could they have more options, for sure, but then they should cost more.

 

Suicide squads are just a by product of deep strike rules. No army would be throwing their elites into an absolute death on a whim like players do. Storm troopers do fill different role then both infantry and Vets, it's just that they're even better at being suicide squads, so that become their use. If storm troopers had infiltrate instead of deep strike I think they would be played way different.

[Canadian_F_H]

Right off the bat steel legion should be mandatory chimeras and absolutely no Taurux.

 

Fluff wise they use so many chimeras because they are above and beyond the largest manufacturer of chimeras in the galaxy from what I understand... Enough to supply all their tithed regiments and PDF regiments with full compliments of chimeras and ship chimeras off to other PDFs and regiments...

 

As for regimental doctrines for steel legion, a lot of the current transport and vehicle rules were first introduced in the Armageddon codex for use with steel legion exclusively...

 

They should use chimeras better than anybody else... Sort of a born in the saddle treatment... I touched on this when I was doing the 3rd war for Armageddon redux thread...

 

 

Armageddon steel legion officers may issue tank commander orders to vehicles based on the chimeras chassis...

 

All Steel legion infantry type units must take a chimera as a dedicated transport even if they normally can't, at the normal cost. Units to large to fit in a chimera may not be taken as part of a steel legion detachment

 

All chimera mounted units count as being relentless on the player turn in which they are embarked. Ie, relentless while embarked, turns they start embarked even if they disembark in the movement phase, or turns in which they embark into a vehicle during the movement phase...

 

That last one may be a bit much... Lol

[Altasmurf]

Seeing this thread I think people really just want army supplements more then doctrines. Which is probably good because that seems to be the direction Gw is going with their campaign books. Would love to see another Armageddon campaign book as so many different forces battled there, but with the red waghh not far gone I doubt that happens.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Seeing this thread I think people really just want army supplements more then doctrines. Which is probably good because that seems to be the direction Gw is going with their campaign books. Would love to see another Armageddon campaign book as so many different forces battled there, but with the red waghh not far gone I doubt that happens.

Maybe we could get a first war supplement, AM vs chaos. Though we did see that the next codex to get an update after orks was SW. Though, Tyranids and BA were in Shield of Baal, and tyranids didn't get a codex, so who knows. 

 

Squad doctrines just seem like they'd make for too much book keeping. What squad has what doctrine.

 

Also, I think that regimmental doctrines would be good, because then things happen army wide. Some squad doctrines might be nice, like a heavy infantry doctrine, 15 pts per squad for carapace armor, taken as a platoon upgrade, that way you don't have multiple doctrines in one platoon. Or light infantry, 10 points for move through cover and scout, or drop troops giving them deep strike, or demolitions, 30 points for giving them melta bombs and a demo charge. Just like Veterans, and veteran doctrines would be better too.

 

I still think the grenadiers doctrine for vets should upgrade their weapons to Hotshots, because grenadiers (Like the DKoK, or Kasrkin) are better equipped veteran soldiers, but still different than stormtroopers (not being raised in the schola progenium) which would be reflected in lacking MTC and DS. Veterans would instead have the Chimera and heavy weapons teams to differentiate them.

 

Storm troopers would keep their hotshots, DS, MTC, but would gain infiltrate and locator beacons as sgt wargear. This would increase their usage to make deep striking other units more viable. Maybe they could also gain pinning so they could hamper your opponent's units. Stormtroopers should be a force multiplier, which they currently are not. 

 

Anyway those are just my thoughts.