Current list options for Leman Russ companies

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Evening all

 

On Sunday I'm participating in an Apocalypse game using borrowed forces.

 

My key question is about Russes. I have 12 Russ hulls with components for assorted variants. The Apocalypse game is a broad minded free for all in terms of using Forgeworld and the like.

 

I've lost track of all the rules variants, formations and dataslates. I believe there is an Apocalypse company formation. Is there an armoured company list these days? What is there in the way of aces, vehicle wargear etc?

 

I know the owner of a pair of Vanquishers has modelled on coaxial heavy stubbers for use in his IA13 Renegades list. Are featureslike this standard or are there lots of fiddly differences between lists?

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Shamansky]

Are you asking about something like this?

Steel Host FORMATION:

• 1 Tank Commander
• 3 Leman Russ squadrons
• 1 Hydra

 

SPECIAL RULES:
Elite Tank Crews: The Tank Commander, and all vehicles from this formation within 12" of the Tank Commander, have the
Preferred Enemy special rule.

[morroccomole]

While i can't speak to any Forgeworld books or lists, nor do I have firsthand knowledge of the new Mont'Ka formations, I do know of the Steel Host formation from "The Red WAAAGH."
It' something to the effect of:
Tank Commmander (Min 2, max 3 Russ')
3 Leman Russ Squadrons (Min 3, max 9)

1 Hydra

IIRC The perk is a 12" preferred enemy bubble around the Tank Commander, which makes gets hot rolls easy from plasma weapons, and not to mention can reroll those 1's to-wound from the template weapons (and the already twin-linked exterminator).

[march10k]

emprah's fist:

 

command tank (not a squadron, one tank!) and three squadrons of three for a fixed set of ten.  12" BS4 bubble on the commander, each of the sets of three gets the "armored spearhead" special rule on page 60 of the APOC book (it's not a guard specific rule, you can look it up when you show up for the game, way too complex to regurgitate accurately here), and if three or more tanks ram/tank shock the same target, you get a roll on the thunderblitz table against that target (max of one thunderblitz per turn for the formation).

 

I would go for probably four vanquishers and six demolishers.  BS4 actually makes the vanquisher worthwhile, and in APOC, you won't suffer from a shortage of targets worthy of their attention!

[Lukash_]

The Mont'ka one is:

 

Leman Russ commander & buddy

 

3 Leman Russ squadrons

 

1-3 Engiseers

 

The commander has a 12" BS4 bubble for all the Russes, techpriests within 6" of a Russ that takes a penetrating hit force your opponent to roll 2 dice on the damage table and pick the lowest.

 

Also, when tank shocking with multiple vehicles from the formation, subsequent tank shocks are taken at -1 Ld. When ramming, add 1 to the strength of tank shocks (which is redundant, the Russ already rams at strength 10.)

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Thanks everyone. I've split my force 5:5 between Steel Host and Mont'ka Emperor's Fist.

[Goonbandito]

There is an actual Apocalypse Formation for Russes - the 'Emperor's Fist' Tank Company (not to be confused with the Emperor's Fist Armoured Company from Mont'ka...).  Its 10 Russes all up, a Formation Leader and 3 squadrons of 3 Russes, the Formation Leader and everyone within 12" of him get BS4, if you Tank Shock/Ram with 3 or more Russes you can roll once on the Thunderblitz table and you can line your Russes up in the various 'Armoured Spearheads' to get extra rules like Tank Hunters or Preferred Enemy.

[WarriorFish]

Once upon a time Emperor's Fist was also a box set... to see such wonders again is my dream :P

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm surprised that I didn't see the IA Armored Battle Group list mentioned. Maybe it was, but honestly it's probably the coolest option for running lots of tanks. Russes as Troops and you get BS4 Command tanks and BS4 Commissar tanks, for HQ and Elites respectively. Then you can run artillery in the HS slots, and whatever you want in the FA slots; hellhounds, a Vulture, and/or sentinel squadrons. All infantry is mounted in transports (chimeras or centaurs) heavy weapons squads are heavy support choices and there are no platoons. 

 

You also get access to the Coax stubber rule, so you can take advantage of that.

[exsonics]

I'm surprised that I didn't see the IA Armored Battle Group list mentioned. Maybe it was, but honestly it's probably the coolest option for running lots of tanks. Russes as Troops and you get BS4 Command tanks and BS4 Commissar tanks, for HQ and Elites respectively. Then you can run artillery in the HS slots, and whatever you want in the FA slots; hellhounds, a Vulture, and/or sentinel squadrons. All infantry is mounted in transports (chimeras or centaurs) heavy weapons squads are heavy support choices and there are no platoons. 

 

You also get access to the Coax stubber rule, so you can take advantage of that.

 

Is IA armored battle group still useful? I mean, it is old book with old rules and a bit expensive price tags for tanks. I feel great interest, since I can field good number of tanks under arty + vendetta or vulture support, and there are some interesting rules as well. But to me, it seems the list will suffer from the lack of mass of guardsmen. I may wrong, I'm just a beginner here. But anyway, I think it would be interesting to read more about this battle group. I'm only checking with battlescribe, but I may invest the book in the future.  

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

I'm surprised that I didn't see the IA Armored Battle Group list mentioned. Maybe it was, but honestly it's probably the coolest option for running lots of tanks. Russes as Troops and you get BS4 Command tanks and BS4 Commissar tanks, for HQ and Elites respectively. Then you can run artillery in the HS slots, and whatever you want in the FA slots; hellhounds, a Vulture, and/or sentinel squadrons. All infantry is mounted in transports (chimeras or centaurs) heavy weapons squads are heavy support choices and there are no platoons. 

 

You also get access to the Coax stubber rule, so you can take advantage of that.

 

Is IA armored battle group still useful? I mean, it is old book with old rules and a bit expensive price tags for tanks. I feel great interest, since I can field good number of tanks under arty + vendetta or vulture support, and there are some interesting rules as well. But to me, it seems the list will suffer from the lack of mass of guardsmen. I may wrong, I'm just a beginner here. But anyway, I think it would be interesting to read more about this battle group. I'm only checking with battlescribe, but I may invest the book in the future.  

 

It is still useful, and yes you're right, it does suffer from a lack of massed infantry. However the infantry you get is fast, given that it's all mounted in transports. The Vet squads in particular can be nice, since they come as a 5 man unit mounted in a centaur. The centaur is fast and open topped, meaning you can run a vet squad up to an objective, and camp it, and all of the vets can still shoot. Now you can add more vets to the squad and bring them to 10 and put them in a chimera, and they'd be better protected, but the idea of having 2 plasma guns and a missile launcher in a fast vehicle to camp objectives is pretty appealing. Then there's the stormies, old 5th ed stormies with pistol/ccw, ready to take on whatever you throw them at. They have to take chimeras, and I'd use them as my primary infantry. 

 

The great thing is Command tanks and Commissar tanks get BS4, so if you forget using stormies and instead use carapace vets in chimeras you can get 5 BS4 Russes. Vanquishers can take coaxial guns, for twin linking the main gun, and beast hunter shells, which are wonderful, because they fire those in addition to the regular vanquisher shot, making the vanquisher much more versatile. Put a couple of single russ squadrons in your troops slots with some infantry to back them up and you have a pretty solid list.

 

I actually prefer some of the older rules, they were more fun and fluffy and the armies really had more character compared to now. It's one of the reasons I like to run with forgeworld rules, the army has more character that way. 

[Lukash_]

 

 

I'm surprised that I didn't see the IA Armored Battle Group list mentioned. Maybe it was, but honestly it's probably the coolest option for running lots of tanks. Russes as Troops and you get BS4 Command tanks and BS4 Commissar tanks, for HQ and Elites respectively. Then you can run artillery in the HS slots, and whatever you want in the FA slots; hellhounds, a Vulture, and/or sentinel squadrons. All infantry is mounted in transports (chimeras or centaurs) heavy weapons squads are heavy support choices and there are no platoons.

 

You also get access to the Coax stubber rule, so you can take advantage of that.

Is IA armored battle group still useful? I mean, it is old book with old rules and a bit expensive price tags for tanks. I feel great interest, since I can field good number of tanks under arty + vendetta or vulture support, and there are some interesting rules as well. But to me, it seems the list will suffer from the lack of mass of guardsmen. I may wrong, I'm just a beginner here. But anyway, I think it would be interesting to read more about this battle group. I'm only checking with battlescribe, but I may invest the book in the future.

Take it as an allied detachment. A naked Company Command Vanquisher rings in at exactly the same price as a Tank Commander in the same vehicle with better upgrade options and no need to have a buddy tank. Take a Thunderer/Demolisher for your troop choice.

[Noserenda]

Yeah having looked at both myself recently you can cram more hulls into the Cadian formations and the enginseers are sweeeet but the IA list is sooooo much more interesting and beast hunter shells are brutal!

[exsonics]

 

 

I'm surprised that I didn't see the IA Armored Battle Group list mentioned. Maybe it was, but honestly it's probably the coolest option for running lots of tanks. Russes as Troops and you get BS4 Command tanks and BS4 Commissar tanks, for HQ and Elites respectively. Then you can run artillery in the HS slots, and whatever you want in the FA slots; hellhounds, a Vulture, and/or sentinel squadrons. All infantry is mounted in transports (chimeras or centaurs) heavy weapons squads are heavy support choices and there are no platoons. 

 

You also get access to the Coax stubber rule, so you can take advantage of that.

 

Is IA armored battle group still useful? I mean, it is old book with old rules and a bit expensive price tags for tanks. I feel great interest, since I can field good number of tanks under arty + vendetta or vulture support, and there are some interesting rules as well. But to me, it seems the list will suffer from the lack of mass of guardsmen. I may wrong, I'm just a beginner here. But anyway, I think it would be interesting to read more about this battle group. I'm only checking with battlescribe, but I may invest the book in the future.  

 

It is still useful, and yes you're right, it does suffer from a lack of massed infantry. However the infantry you get is fast, given that it's all mounted in transports. The Vet squads in particular can be nice, since they come as a 5 man unit mounted in a centaur. The centaur is fast and open topped, meaning you can run a vet squad up to an objective, and camp it, and all of the vets can still shoot. Now you can add more vets to the squad and bring them to 10 and put them in a chimera, and they'd be better protected, but the idea of having 2 plasma guns and a missile launcher in a fast vehicle to camp objectives is pretty appealing. Then there's the stormies, old 5th ed stormies with pistol/ccw, ready to take on whatever you throw them at. They have to take chimeras, and I'd use them as my primary infantry. 

 

The great thing is Command tanks and Commissar tanks get BS4, so if you forget using stormies and instead use carapace vets in chimeras you can get 5 BS4 Russes. Vanquishers can take coaxial guns, for twin linking the main gun, and beast hunter shells, which are wonderful, because they fire those in addition to the regular vanquisher shot, making the vanquisher much more versatile. Put a couple of single russ squadrons in your troops slots with some infantry to back them up and you have a pretty solid list.

 

I actually prefer some of the older rules, they were more fun and fluffy and the armies really had more character compared to now. It's one of the reasons I like to run with forgeworld rules, the army has more character that way. 

 

 

Thank you for the explanation. Are those five of BS4 tanks meaning 2 Command tank (HQ) + 3 Commissar tank (Elite) combo? And I agree, there are lots of interesting rules there. Especially the beast hunter shell makes this list distinctive from recent Steelhost & Emperor's fist formation. I think I may buy the IA1.2 for some future, wish to read more about armored columns from forge world. But still I feel that some options are a bit expensive, such as Executioner or Dozer blade.  

 

 

 

I'm surprised that I didn't see the IA Armored Battle Group list mentioned. Maybe it was, but honestly it's probably the coolest option for running lots of tanks. Russes as Troops and you get BS4 Command tanks and BS4 Commissar tanks, for HQ and Elites respectively. Then you can run artillery in the HS slots, and whatever you want in the FA slots; hellhounds, a Vulture, and/or sentinel squadrons. All infantry is mounted in transports (chimeras or centaurs) heavy weapons squads are heavy support choices and there are no platoons.

 

You also get access to the Coax stubber rule, so you can take advantage of that.

Is IA armored battle group still useful? I mean, it is old book with old rules and a bit expensive price tags for tanks. I feel great interest, since I can field good number of tanks under arty + vendetta or vulture support, and there are some interesting rules as well. But to me, it seems the list will suffer from the lack of mass of guardsmen. I may wrong, I'm just a beginner here. But anyway, I think it would be interesting to read more about this battle group. I'm only checking with battlescribe, but I may invest the book in the future.

Take it as an allied detachment. A naked Company Command Vanquisher rings in at exactly the same price as a Tank Commander in the same vehicle with better upgrade options and no need to have a buddy tank. Take a Thunderer/Demolisher for your troop choice.

 

 

Allied IG guardmen blob is really a good idea. There might be a good chances of collaborations in CAD.  

 

Yeah having looked at both myself recently you can cram more hulls into the Cadian formations and the enginseers are sweeeet but the IA list is sooooo much more interesting and beast hunter shells are brutal!

 

I agree, beast hunter shell looks like a badass sniping shell for MC or armors. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

 

Thank you for the explanation. Are those five of BS4 tanks meaning 2 Command tank (HQ) + 3 Commissar tank (Elite) combo? And I agree, there are lots of interesting rules there. Especially the beast hunter shell makes this list distinctive from recent Steelhost & Emperor's fist formation. I think I may buy the IA1.2 for some future, wish to read more about armored columns from forge world. But still I feel that some options are a bit expensive, such as Executioner or Dozer blade.  

 

 

It's no problem. I love the game, and I love talking tactics. Yes the 5 BS4 tanks I was referring to were the 2 Company Command Tanks for HQ and the 3 Elite Commissar Tanks. It doesn't make sense to use any other variant of tank with those slots other than the vanquisher, as that single shot armorbane cannon does so much better with BS4, and as I said the Vanquisher can take a Coaxial heavy stubber, which means it becomes an almost sure hit within 36 inches.

 

With a Coaxial weapon (just like on a real tank) you fire it first, and as long as you score a hit the main gun becomes twin linked. Real tanks have coaxial machine guns to serve as ranging/spotting rifles. If you can hit it with the machine gun, you can hit it with the main gun, because the coax gun is boresighted to the main gun. 

 

The heavy stubber has 3 shots and a 36 inch range, and on a BS4 tank you're almost assured a hit with the stubber, which means twin linked for the vanquisher shot. With the beasthunter shells, they're S8 AP3 Small blast and Instant death. Which can murder MC's, except the ones with 2+ saves. I'd always pay for the beasthunter shells because I'd use them against infantry. I'd probably never take the full 5 BS4 tanks, because I like my stormtroopers, and I like to build my lists so that I'd have fun playing against them. Because if I wouldn't have fun, my opponent surely won't.

 

I'd take 2 CCT's with vanquishers, coax stubbers, dozer blades and BH shells, with 2 LRBT's as my two troops choices. Then I'd fill the list out around that. You could take an AD, to get a blobbed guard platoon, but honestly the ABG list is how you build an awesome PanzerGrenadier army. Infantry is mechanized to keep up with the tanks, because it's supposed to be played fast and aggressive, not as a tank gunline. Sure you can play it that way, but I think you'd have more fun playing it as a mobile midfield control army. Because not moving and not taking objectives, in an objective heavy meta is going to cost you a lot of games.

[Lukash_]

Er, my copy of IA2 lists Beast Hunter shells at S8 AP2 Small Blast Instant Death. Are you thinking of Augur Shells?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Er, my copy of IA2 lists Beast Hunter shells at S8 AP2 Small Blast Instant Death. Are you thinking of Augur Shells?

No, I was thinking of beasthunter shells. I think I just misread the profile. I wanted to say AP2, but that didn't sound right. Thanks for fact checking that for me. That makes them a hell of a lot more useful then, as at AP2 they can bring down a riptide.

[exsonics]

 

 

 

Thank you for the explanation. Are those five of BS4 tanks meaning 2 Command tank (HQ) + 3 Commissar tank (Elite) combo? And I agree, there are lots of interesting rules there. Especially the beast hunter shell makes this list distinctive from recent Steelhost & Emperor's fist formation. I think I may buy the IA1.2 for some future, wish to read more about armored columns from forge world. But still I feel that some options are a bit expensive, such as Executioner or Dozer blade.  

 

 

It's no problem. I love the game, and I love talking tactics. Yes the 5 BS4 tanks I was referring to were the 2 Company Command Tanks for HQ and the 3 Elite Commissar Tanks. It doesn't make sense to use any other variant of tank with those slots other than the vanquisher, as that single shot armorbane cannon does so much better with BS4, and as I said the Vanquisher can take a Coaxial heavy stubber, which means it becomes an almost sure hit within 36 inches.

 

With a Coaxial weapon (just like on a real tank) you fire it first, and as long as you score a hit the main gun becomes twin linked. Real tanks have coaxial machine guns to serve as ranging/spotting rifles. If you can hit it with the machine gun, you can hit it with the main gun, because the coax gun is boresighted to the main gun. 

 

The heavy stubber has 3 shots and a 36 inch range, and on a BS4 tank you're almost assured a hit with the stubber, which means twin linked for the vanquisher shot. With the beasthunter shells, they're S8 AP3 Small blast and Instant death. Which can murder MC's, except the ones with 2+ saves. I'd always pay for the beasthunter shells because I'd use them against infantry. I'd probably never take the full 5 BS4 tanks, because I like my stormtroopers, and I like to build my lists so that I'd have fun playing against them. Because if I wouldn't have fun, my opponent surely won't.

 

I'd take 2 CCT's with vanquishers, coax stubbers, dozer blades and BH shells, with 2 LRBT's as my two troops choices. Then I'd fill the list out around that. You could take an AD, to get a blobbed guard platoon, but honestly the ABG list is how you build an awesome PanzerGrenadier army. Infantry is mechanized to keep up with the tanks, because it's supposed to be played fast and aggressive, not as a tank gunline. Sure you can play it that way, but I think you'd have more fun playing it as a mobile midfield control army. Because not moving and not taking objectives, in an objective heavy meta is going to cost you a lot of games.

 

 

I made a tank-gunline-only 2000pt ABG for fun. But I think your 2 CCT + mech. inf. idea would be more balanced and competitive for taking objectives. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Yeah, it's more than just the two CCT's and mech vets though. I'd probably go for 2 CCT's, 2 as heck Stormtrooper squads, 2 vet squads in centaurs (2MG, MLT), and 2 LRBT's with a couple Armored Plasma Cannon Sentinel squadrons and a Vulture Gunship as my typical list, just to cover all of my bases and make sure that I had a little of everything to cover all of the threats I might face. I don't like gunlines, they're too defensive minded. Remember what Patton said, "Always take the offensive, never dig in!" Never look to hold ground, that's for follow on troops. You should never play 40k as if you're the follow on forces. You'll probably not have any fun that way. 

 

Be warned, never play this against Necrons, they will eat you alive with gauss. 

[exsonics]

Yeah, it's more than just the two CCT's and mech vets though. I'd probably go for 2 CCT's, 2 as heck Stormtrooper squads, 2 vet squads in centaurs (2MG, MLT), and 2 LRBT's with a couple Armored Plasma Cannon Sentinel squadrons and a Vulture Gunship as my typical list, just to cover all of my bases and make sure that I had a little of everything to cover all of the threats I might face. I don't like gunlines, they're too defensive minded. Remember what Patton said, "Always take the offensive, never dig in!" Never look to hold ground, that's for follow on troops. You should never play 40k as if you're the follow on forces. You'll probably not have any fun that way. 

 

Be warned, never play this against Necrons, they will eat you alive with gauss. 

 

Well, I also agree that offense is the best defense, but that really needs careful thinking and consideration. Against Necrons, I also heard that lots of heavy artys are needed. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I would tend to run infantry and flyer heavy against Necrons, since snap shots no longer generate tesla effects, and it minimizes the impact of the gauss flayers. Arty would be the way to go to support your boys as they move up. Still though, guard has a tremendous mobility advantage and it would be a shame to waste that. Also with the number of russ tanks that can pump out instant death, in the form of high strength templates, you can't afford not to take them. Battle tanks and eradicators will be your friends, demolishers lack the range to be effective against 'crons, since the Demolisher needs to get inside gauss range to do it's work. Though it could make an effective, if expensive, DISTRACTION CARNIFEX! 

 

As for tactics, I fight necrons based on the way I play Necrons. I play silver tide necrons, which is a relatively slow army. 40-60 foot slogging warriors with ghost arks supporting them. Add a Monolith or two and it gets faster, because of the eternity gates (deep strike the monolith and teleport your warrior blob behind your opponent). It's the closest thing I have to a horde army right now, and it's a brutal one. 

[exsonics]

I would tend to run infantry and flyer heavy against Necrons, since snap shots no longer generate tesla effects, and it minimizes the impact of the gauss flayers. Arty would be the way to go to support your boys as they move up. Still though, guard has a tremendous mobility advantage and it would be a shame to waste that. Also with the number of russ tanks that can pump out instant death, in the form of high strength templates, you can't afford not to take them. Battle tanks and eradicators will be your friends, demolishers lack the range to be effective against 'crons, since the Demolisher needs to get inside gauss range to do it's work. Though it could make an effective, if expensive, DISTRACTION CARNIFEX! 

 

As for tactics, I fight necrons based on the way I play Necrons. I play silver tide necrons, which is a relatively slow army. 40-60 foot slogging warriors with ghost arks supporting them. Add a Monolith or two and it gets faster, because of the eternity gates (deep strike the monolith and teleport your warrior blob behind your opponent). It's the closest thing I have to a horde army right now, and it's a brutal one. 

Thanks for the hints against necrons. I also will keep tanks in my list regardless of opponent, and I also agree about the advantage of longer range is precious for LR tanks. It seems Necron is really tough army for IG

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

I would tend to run infantry and flyer heavy against Necrons, since snap shots no longer generate tesla effects, and it minimizes the impact of the gauss flayers. Arty would be the way to go to support your boys as they move up. Still though, guard has a tremendous mobility advantage and it would be a shame to waste that. Also with the number of russ tanks that can pump out instant death, in the form of high strength templates, you can't afford not to take them. Battle tanks and eradicators will be your friends, demolishers lack the range to be effective against 'crons, since the Demolisher needs to get inside gauss range to do it's work. Though it could make an effective, if expensive, DISTRACTION CARNIFEX! 

 

As for tactics, I fight necrons based on the way I play Necrons. I play silver tide necrons, which is a relatively slow army. 40-60 foot slogging warriors with ghost arks supporting them. Add a Monolith or two and it gets faster, because of the eternity gates (deep strike the monolith and teleport your warrior blob behind your opponent). It's the closest thing I have to a horde army right now, and it's a brutal one. 

Thanks for the hints against necrons. I also will keep tanks in my list regardless of opponent, and I also agree about the advantage of longer range is precious for LR tanks. It seems Necron is really tough army for IG

 

Nerons can be a tough opponent for any army. Given how they tend to stand back up after you kill them. It used to be worse, since they rolled for reanimation at the end of each phase, the only way to keep that from happening was to drop the whole squad. Necrons are a bit easier to deal with now that reanimation is essentially a 5+ FNP, that can be upgraded to 4+. The Necron Decurion detachment is something to watch out for, as one of the benefits is granting 4+ reanimation and MTC to everything. It can be brutal, and because of it, I'd rather just use a CAD and have fun. Also, the Decurion doesn't let me use my fun Forge World Centipede of doom.