Myers Briggs Personality types for Primarchs (and frater)

[Hesh Kadesh]

I'd posit Kurze as the Entrepeneur or Advocate. Despite their positive spin in the various articles, they are rather applicable to one of a more sadistic bent.

 

As a diagnosed high functioning sociopath myself, i can kind of relate, in that the Myers Briggs is rather worthless as a Psychoanalytical Science test or tool, amd is both too specific and not specific enough at the same time. Considering that my company relies on the MBTI to evaluate us, I'm canny enough to give them the answer they want as well.

 

After all, it is based on Jung, which is rather questionable along with its rather bimodal style of of allocation. You are not wholly into or extro verted, nor are you purely a thinker or feeler.

 

That said, for a bit of fun, its harmless and speaks more volumes about those who cry about the singular thread (yes there was another, but it devolved into name calling and hair pulling, and my imaginary person is different from your imaginary person in a vague parralel to religion, and so isn't worthwile).

 

I'd also much rather have discussion like this to at least read and reason with than people continually spamming new threads of 'hi new to heresy, what legion/where to proceed' when that literally takes 2 seconds to look at the top of the forum or go to the rules or tactics sections.

 

There is actual discussion, and shame on those who don't agree to pleasant and rather comparatively intellectual discussion for a change.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

I am a Debater ENTP-A. The ultimate devils advocate. I'll question and take wrong positions just to try people lol.

 

Me too. Except I'm better at it. ;)

Bro, do you even Debater? :P

 

Welcome to the 3% buddy.

 

 

@Hesh

I was designated a sociopath as well and I screwed with 3 psychologists just because it amused me intellectually. Honestly, it's all pseudoscience so yeah.

[GreyCrow]

I am a Debater ENTP-A. The ultimate devils advocate. I'll question and take wrong positions just to try people lol.

 

If you can't tell from my unorthodox tactics on one of the many tactica threads, I take the crazy schemes and ideas - I'm not phased by outside opinion. I'm a better dreamer and thinker than a methodical "do-er". Better on the fly doing things.

 

I think it almost sounds like Horus: on the fly, the Mournival for the devils Advocate, and the mental sparring with the single most potent human in existence.

ENTP A as well, and it does seem that Horus fits the bill. He likes to outsmart anyone else, seems more charming than Guilliman (at least he is apparently on good terms with everyone), he uses his brothers' strengths for what they are rather than trying to manage them (at least until he turns to Chaos) like Roboute would (extroverted intuition ad a dominant for ENTP vs extroverted thinking for Guilliman).

 

He seems to be doing thing also for is own amusement as well. He doesn't want to be the war master for any other reason that he Both thinks he's smarter and because he really likes the sound of that.

 

@Hesh : I'm not sure Jung was a bimodal thinker, the MBTI's goal is to identify which of the 16 cognitive fonctions are most dominant within an individual (and they have created their archetypes based on that). Each human being shows these 16 functions but some are more developped than others.

I'll give you that the MBTI may appear polarized, but it's really more a case of "this function is dominant because you chose it in just over 50% of the answers".

 

I do love how high functioning sociopathy is considered a mental illness. I guess many of us are governed by mentally ill people they happily voted for :p

[Scribe]

ISTJ, the Logistitian, every time I take these tests its the same. :p

[shandwen]

I'm a INTP (the other 3%). No primarchs fit the bill for that, but perhaps Dantoich (I forget the spelling but the loyal IW on Pharos).

 

Also: Greycrow, Horus did misuse Corax to the point that corax said "nope, not anymore." And left in anger. So Horus wasn't liked by all... just all but one or two.

[Runefyre]

Took the test 2 times (once yesterday, once today). Both times I got ENFJ, the protagonist. I've always been a natural leader/peacekeeper. I can't think of  any primarchs that truly fit this category, maybe pre-heresy Horus?

[Saa]

I've taken the test many times over the years and am an INTJ. It might indicate why I enjoy Erebus so much though I don't really think my Primarch would be classified as such.....

 

Saa......

 

.....or something like that

 

Edit - just took the test again and came out as INTP. Hmmmmmm

[Entei]

Having studied typology due to a general interest in psychology, I think MBTI is pretty bad for anything other than assignment in work-related contexts. It's basically a dumbed-down stereotyped version of Jung's psychological types with nonsensical motivations added to it. 

I think that using systems such as the Enneagram is a more efficient way to type characters, since it focuses on motivations rather than how people absorb information.
Here, every type is indicated by a number between 1 and 9, each extrapolated from achetypal fears and motivations.
https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-1/

Anyway, here is my take on some of the primarchs, going by the Jungian cognitive functions rather than MBTI type-descriptions, as well as the enneagram:
(notice f'rex that Guilliman, Johnson and Horus are all the same jungian type imo, but each have very different motivations/fears)

Guiiliman: ENTJ 1 (His fear of being corrupt becomes really apparent during Imperium Secundus)

Lion'el Johnson: ENTJ 6w5 (Extremely distrustful, but also extremely loyal...)
Horus: ENTJ 3 (Ambitious to a fault)
Lorgar: INFJ 5w4 (Cares only about the truth, no matter the consequence)
Sanguinius: IxFP 4w5 (Always focuses on his own faults, while still the one most in touch with his own emotions)
Conrad Kurze: INTJ 8w9 (Disintegrated 8s tend to become more like depressive 5s)

Leman Russ: ESTP 8w7 (The maverick. Do I need to say more?)
Angron: xSFP 8w9 (Angron's and Guilliman's dialogue in Betrayer really shows the differences in worldview between 1s and 8s.)
Magnus: INxx 5 (Knowledge for knowledge's sake, very 5)
Fulgrim: Dunno, probably a 7
Perturabo: ISTJ 6 (6s are the type most in touch with their own fear, but when it's ignored they can become extremely domineering and pragmatic)
Rogal Dorn: possibly also ISTJ 6
Alpharius/Omegon: INTJ 5w6 (Too competent to be accurately typed...)


Of course, this is just my general impression since personalities vary depending on the author. As for myself, I might be ENTJ.

[Scribe]

Perturabo: ISTJ 6 (6s are the type most in touch with their own fear, but when it's ignored they can become extremely domineering and pragmatic)

.

I followed your link and read it first, identifying with 6 and thinking of Perturabo as well.

[GreyCrow]

@Entei : very interesting side by side comparisons of the enneagrams and MBTI !

 

While the MBTI tends to show the general behavioral preferences (and in my experience, it is only good at that but it never failed with my circle so I tend to give it good value), pairing it with the enneagrams allows to get motivations, it's very interesting. You've given me drive to study this framework in more details, so thanks for that ;)

 

When pairing the two, it does make sense that both Horus and Guilliman are ENTJ, with a 3 for Horus. The "achievement" part is a good indication of why he could be confused with some ENTP behavior.

[Entei]

@Entei : very interesting side by side comparisons of the enneagrams and MBTI !

While the MBTI tends to show the general behavioral preferences (and in my experience, it is only good at that but it never failed with my circle so I tend to give it good value), pairing it with the enneagrams allows to get motivations, it's very interesting. You've given me drive to study this framework in more details, so thanks for that

When pairing the two, it does make sense that both Horus and Guilliman are ENTJ, with a 3 for Horus. The "achievement" part is a good indication of why he could be confused with some ENTP behavior.

Yeah, my main gripe with pure MBTI is that people/characters are assumed to be so stereotypical, yet it doesn't even make sense when you consider Jung's original work.

For example, if Horus was an ENTP, he would use Extroverted Intuition(Ne) as a cognitive function first and foremost. Ne-types tend to look at things and start thinking of other things related to it in order to spawn ideas, exploring all potential possibilities. His second function would be Introvered Thinking, which creates rigid systems for understanding information, which may be entirely divorced from real facts. So the behavioral pattern gleaned from an ENTP if you extrapolate from Jung would be something like the inventor who explores idea after idea in order to create a very original system, without any real ethical concerns. And that's why I think MBTI descriptions are :cussty. "The Debater" is more of an enneagram 7,1 or 3 description which can be complementary to any of the Jungian analytical types. If we look at Horus, he fits the bill more as the realistic efficiency-concerned ENTJ, while a character such as Fabius Bile might be more of an ENTP imo.

I dunno if you've seen House of Cards, but I think Frank Underwood is an ENTJ with a mix of type 3 and 8, for reference.

[GreyCrow]

Definitely agree with you once more. The free ressources about MBTI tend to vastly oversimplify the analysis, sometimes to the extent where they can throw misleading information around. Which is why I like your motivations model, which is more concerned about the "why" while the MBTI is more about the "how".

With your analysis of the ENTP, I like the "inventor" (or innovator) over "the debater" because it's more broad in terms of motivations. Being a pureblooded ENTPs, these two cognitive process are indeed what I most naturally use when coming on to new situations and the end result of Ne and Ti is to recombine things to construct a new outcome, whether it is to destroy an opponent's argument (in which case you present it under a new light with implications previously unforeseen) or whether it is to structure a business model.

Speaking of ENTPs, I reread Tempest tonight and the way Guilliman is presented (obsessed with analytical observation of facts and situation first and foremost, as well as his obsession for accumulating knowledge through reading treatises on very specific matters relevant to his chosen field of study) would tend to indicate that the Ne function is extremely developped in him and is probably the dominant function. Moreover, his theoretical/practical framework for devising tactics is a very abstract and arbitrary logic engine used to classify and prioritize information very much akin to categorizing objectives and means as "what I'm trying to acheive/what I need to achieve this."

Finally, how he revoked the edict of Nikea completely based on the cold hard fact that Libbies were the best weapon to face off against the warp means that he was trying to find the proper tool (based on hard empirical fact, after linking Librarians and Daemons through a shared connection with the Warp) to combat that situation, rather than trying to optimize his existing units to fight these threats. We can also look at the "improvements" he made over other Legions' units as an example of trying to go beyond rather than trying to optimize.

The description in Tempest of the Fulmentarus Strike Squad is a key giveaway imho : "Having observed his brother Perturabo field his Tyrant Siege Terminator squads in battle, Guilliman judged the tactic worthy of refinement. As he has on several occasions before, he ordered the creation of a number of similar units in his own Legion so that he might study and improve upoen Perturabo's innovation."

It is also stated that he doesn't really care whether his bros take the piss because he copied and improved on their designs in the "Unit structure and formation within the Legion" part of the Ultras' description, so I guess that the "without regard for ethical concerns" is appropriate. Roboute sees, Roboute studies, Roboute improves, and Roboute likes to show who's boss

Like you said, Horus might fit more the ENTJ type, with primarily Te then Ni : it's his personal experience of situations and subjective interpretation and classification of facts from his different battles and life on Chtona that is the source of the tactical doctrines of the XVIth, and he likes to organize his existing forces for utmost shock assaults (because it makes sense to him) as well as manage his brothers based on their strengths without trying to improve them or inspire new areas of reflexion for improvement.

Once again, thanks for sharing the enneagram, because it really helped put things into perspective.

[depthcharge12]

I want to do astrological signs next :D

[Entei]

Definitely agree with you once more. The free ressources about MBTI tend to vastly oversimplify the analysis, sometimes to the extent where they can throw misleading information around. Which is why I like your motivations model, which is more concerned about the "why" while the MBTI is more about the "how".

With your analysis of the ENTP, I like the "inventor" (or innovator) over "the debater" because it's more broad in terms of motivations. Being a pureblooded ENTPs, these two cognitive process are indeed what I most naturally use when coming on to new situations and the end result of Ne and Ti is to recombine things to construct a new outcome, whether it is to destroy an opponent's argument (in which case you present it under a new light with implications previously unforeseen) or whether it is to structure a business model.

Speaking of ENTPs, I reread Tempest tonight and the way Guilliman is presented (obsessed with analytical observation of facts and situation first and foremost, as well as his obsession for accumulating knowledge through reading treatises on very specific matters relevant to his chosen field of study) would tend to indicate that the Ne function is extremely developped in him and is probably the dominant function. Moreover, his theoretical/practical framework for devising tactics is a very abstract and arbitrary logic engine used to classify and prioritize information very much akin to categorizing objectives and means as "what I'm trying to acheive/what I need to achieve this."

Finally, how he revoked the edict of Nikea completely based on the cold hard fact that Libbies were the best weapon to face off against the warp means that he was trying to find the proper tool (based on hard empirical fact, after linking Librarians and Daemons through a shared connection with the Warp) to combat that situation, rather than trying to optimize his existing units to fight these threats. We can also look at the "improvements" he made over other Legions' units as an example of trying to go beyond rather than trying to optimize.

The description in Tempest of the Fulmentarus Strike Squad is a key giveaway imho : "Having observed his brother Perturabo field his Tyrant Siege Terminator squads in battle, Guilliman judged the tactic worthy of refinement. As he has on several occasions before, he ordered the creation of a number of similar units in his own Legion so that he might study and improve upoen Perturabo's innovation."

It is also stated that he doesn't really care whether his bros take the piss because he copied and improved on their designs in the "Unit structure and formation within the Legion" part of the Ultras' description, so I guess that the "without regard for ethical concerns" is appropriate. Roboute sees, Roboute studies, Roboute improves, and Roboute likes to show who's boss

Like you said, Horus might fit more the ENTJ type, with primarily Te then Ni : it's his personal experience of situations and subjective interpretation and classification of facts from his different battles and life on Chtona that is the source of the tactical doctrines of the XVIth, and he likes to organize his existing forces for utmost shock assaults (because it makes sense to him) as well as manage his brothers based on their strengths without trying to improve them or inspire new areas of reflexion for improvement.

Once again, thanks for sharing the enneagram, because it really helped put things into perspective.

To be completely honest, I don't think Guilliman can be accurately typed, since he's got a supernatural grasp on logic, but I choose to go with ENTJ since I don't see much Ne in him. most of what you wrote about him actually falls under Te imho:

Both Ti and Te works with systems, although whereas Te often strive towards creating and improving algorithmical systems, Ti is more about rules and laws, independent of reality. Linguistics is a very Ti system for example; in the real world it doesn't matter much. The "practical/theoretical" is very Te because it's an extremely efficient algorithmic principle which is supposed to account for any realistic circumstance. Ti systems almost never seek to be efficient, instead it tries to create a solid internal logic.

Observing reality and seeing where things can be improved/critiqued is exactly how the extroverted functions work in ENTJs, while ENTPs extroverted functions usually try to come up with novel ideas with little to no practical application. For example: An ENTJ sees a new unit that his brother is fielding, realizing that it's not being used to it's best purpose, so he incorporates the unit in his own army to make full use of it, calculating and testing if it's good enough. Now, an ENTP also sees this, but instead starts thinking "that unit looks interesting, it would be fun to try running them on jetbikes, or maybe on jumping robots"

This is why Ne is often compared to childish imagination, and Te to business-logic.

ENTJs also have Introverted Feeling as their inferior function, which makes them about as good at considering ethical implications as ENTPs, the differance being that ENTJs secretly wish they were more in touch with their personal feelings/relationships, while ENTPs wish they could be better at affecting the emotional atmosphere in a lighthearted way. When an ENTJ do try to use their Introverted Feeling, it often comes out in an immature way, usually in the form of strong personal judgements. ENTPs tend to find such behavior ridiculous and/or selfish, opting to make fun of people "who care too much", hence the troll debater stereotype.

Again, for reference: In Breaking Bad, compare Walter White or Gus Fring(both xNTJ) to Saul Goodman(ENTP) or in Star Trek: The Next Generation, compare Picard(ENTJ) to Data(xNTP)

Edit: Incidentally, one of my reasons for thinking that Russ is a Ti-type is because of his adherence to the rules laid down by his father, yet he fails to see how his rune priests are affected by the edict, since it only confers to Librarians and since he doesn't use that definition for his witches, it makes logical sense to him that they should be unaffected by it. Ti can be very circular in this way. Compare this to Guilliman who ignores the edict out of necessity, quickly disregarding rules that serve no realistic purpose.

[depthcharge12]

Lol I see more and more of myself as an ENTP in this discussion :P

 

And yes, if I were a Primarch adapting a brother's units, I would throw them in a jetbike thank you. Bike riding Fulmentarus? You bet your barnacles. Super heavy hover tank? Hell why not.

[GreyCrow]

I can see your points. Obviously, Primarchs are super human and thus probably not as affected by the MBTI as much as us mere mortals.

Comparing Ne to Ni (from my limited understanding of the Jungian Functions, so feel free to set me straight if I'm grossly misunderstanding), Ne puts objects within context of one another in an objective manner, while Ni puts objects within context of the obersvator's personal experience with them. As such, Ni needs to have personally experimented a situation in order to both register an object in their "intuitive database" while Ne look at objects and situation in a factual way for what they are. For an example, the way I'm picturing it is that Ne will look at a chair for what the chair is (function of sitting with different level of comfort and purposes) while Ni will look at a chair based on what their experience of a chair is within their own experiences. Which is partly why the NTP types care a lot less (and are more prone to innovation), while NTJs have a particular relationship with the objects they analyze. In a very simplistic way, an Ni type will have trouble using a chair to climb and change a lightbulb until it has already observed someone doing so (and so can personally relate to the experience), while an Ne would have less trouble coming up with the use of a chair as a ladder if it's the first time he's confronted with that need.

We can definitely argue that Guilliman might not have created specific units but instead witnessed his bros use it and improve on the design which could relate to the quest of efficiency as you meant.

I have to comment on Ne being childish imagination and Te being business-logic. I know that you used that as an example rather than a classification, but being an ENTP in business I can attest it's really possible to use Ne Business ENTPs types tend to set a goal as much as ENTJs business profiles do, but the approach is usually different. While ENTJs look at what's there and how to take the best of it, ENTPs look at what's not there and how to use that to reach the goal. Typically, when faced with a goal, an ENTJ manager will say "I can't do it because of my current ressources, but here's what I can do with the ressources", while an ENTP will say "We don't have the current ressources to do it, but if we do this, this and this, we'll have enough to make it happen."

Regarding the Jetbikes and Big Robots, ENTPs won't do it because it's cool (unless they're trying to voluntarily achieve the purpose of cool and rationalize what is cool and why they would need to be cool). ENFPs on the other hand would likely say "Oh god, how cool would that be to have Terminators riding Jetbikes !". An ENTP would approach the situation by "I need a heavy armoured breaching unit that is crazy fast because that would benefit what I'm trying to achieve. How about throwing Terminators on Jetbikes ?". An ENTJ would rather say "Tsk, I have Jetbikes and Terminators, how can I make them work to the best of their abilities to reach the victory."

Maybe Guilliman is more an ENTJ than an ENTP, we won't know until he takes the test You make a good case for him being an ENTJ though, if only mainly for the lack of pure innovation and outside of the box thinking. We could argue that he is the ultimate innovator because he has ultimately innovated everything there is to do with warfare

What makes me tend to think this way is that the way he structured his companies, rather than making them efficient at any specific task, was making them able to tackle a wide variety of challenges through access to every tool in the Astartes Legion, and use these tools not only in conventional but unconventional ways. The key difference (from my understanding) between ENTPs and ENTJs is that ENTPs excel an analytical observation (Ne + Ti) and could be summed up as almost pure logic engines, while ENTJs are more management engines with a knack for organizing (Te + Ni). A powerful driver for an ENTJ is that his environment doesn't make sense logically so he's going to try to make it make sense, while an ENTP will acknowledge his environment for what it is and try to create new theories and stuff based on that observation.

Example : Guilliman when designing the Locutarus didn't really think about how he could optimize the Assault squad, but that he wanted a squad capable of Deep Striking, clearing a zone then duking it out I imagine. While Horus' Reavers squads are just a more optimized Tactical Despoiler Squad with better gear and training, much like the Justaerin are more Elite Terminators. Guilliman also contributed to creating the Sicaran because him and Ferrus wanted "a high speed destroyer tank", which in itself is a creative endaevour rather than an optimization endeavour : It would be fitting my strategic goals to have a high speed destroyer tank --> here's what I need for a high speed destroyer tank --> nothing I have for the high speed destroyer tank matchs my goals --> here is the new high speed destroyer tank I created.

Finally, he is also one of the only Primarchs that saw his Legion as more than a warfare machine, and used it extensively to build and structure the Imperium. We could say that this is part of the "manager" stereotype, but the fact that he found this use for his Legion while Horus did not shows his unconventional approach to the Legion imho. Finally, his use of xeno tech during the Ruinstorm to make another beacon makes him pretty unconventional as well :p

[depthcharge12]

That's why I was making the case that Horus would be an ENTP - he prefers Reavers and Justaerin because they are what he likes and knows. Reavers are adaptable to the situation rather than fulfilling a role (ENFP?). He is very much on the fly, even though he has the resources, he maneuvers to counter things with what he has on hand. Case and point of me being an ENTP - I love the new autocannons released by FW and they fit into the new SoH RoW with relentless. I think they are cool rather than hard points practical. I can make them work. I am of the opinion that you shouldn't sacrifice what you want for an army list for pure dice advantage.

 

Horus also laments the traitors that have aligned with him - he wishes to have some of the loyalists on his side, but makes do with what he's got. He uses each to their advantage.

 

Another point is the Rukal breacher squads - Horus sees the practical use of the breacher units and adapts them, but doesn't sacrifice the humble tactical squad that he prefers.

[GreyCrow]

That's why I was making the case that Horus would be an ENTP - he prefers Reavers and Justaerin because they are what he likes and knows. Reavers are adaptable to the situation rather than fulfilling a role (ENFP?). He is very much on the fly, even though he has the resources, he maneuvers to counter things with what he has on hand. Case and point of me being an ENTP - I love the new autocannons released by FW and they fit into the new SoH RoW with relentless. I think they are cool rather than hard points practical. I can make them work. I am of the opinion that you shouldn't sacrifice what you want for an army list for pure dice advantage.

 

Horus also laments the traitors that have aligned with him - he wishes to have some of the loyalists on his side, but makes do with what he's got. He uses each to their advantage.

 

Another point is the Rukal breacher squads - Horus sees the practical use of the breacher units and adapts them, but doesn't sacrifice the humble tactical squad that he prefers.

 

Actually, what I meant was the opposite : ENTPs don't like stuff because they're cool or beautiful, they like stuff because they can make other stuff with it ;) In the points of the Autocannon, an ENTP would typically think "Oh god, I can have a pretty potent firebase with this stuff.".

 

ENTP are almost completely detached emotionally when it comes to analyzing stuff. When there are family troubles for instance, they'll approach the situation coldly and logically, trying to fix problems between people as if they were fixing a system. They are empathetic, but in a logical way : they get where people are coming from because it makes people makes sense to the ENTP.

[GhostMalone]

I want to do astrological signs next :D

Then bring out the horoscope

[Entei]

I can see your points. Obviously, Primarchs are super human and thus probably not as affected by the MBTI as much as us mere mortals.

Comparing Ne to Ni (from my limited understanding of the Jungian Functions, so feel free to set me straight if I'm grossly misunderstanding), Ne puts objects within context of one another in an objective manner, while Ni puts objects within context of the obersvator's personal experience with them. As such, Ni needs to have personally experimented a situation in order to both register an object in their "intuitive database" while Ne look at objects and situation in a factual way for what they are. For an example, the way I'm picturing it is that Ne will look at a chair for what the chair is (function of sitting with different level of comfort and purposes) while Ni will look at a chair based on what their experience of a chair is within their own experiences. Which is partly why the NTP types care a lot less (and are more prone to innovation), while NTJs have a particular relationship with the objects they analyze. In a very simplistic way, an Ni type will have trouble using a chair to climb and change a lightbulb until it has already observed someone doing so (and so can personally relate to the experience), while an Ne would have less trouble coming up with the use of a chair as a ladder if it's the first time he's confronted with that need.

Edited: I realized my response got awfully complicated, so I'll instead opt to copypaste my choice of descriptions for each cognitive function and see what you think fits better:

The functions of an ENTJ in order of strength:

Extraverted Thinking(Te)

Te is efficiency of an action, technical processes, the accomplishment of work, the efficient and prudent use of resources, factual accuracy, and the acquisition of relevant and useful information. Te understands the difference between effective and ineffective behavior when performing a procedure or accomplishing a task, and aspires to increase the frequency of productive outcomes within a system.

Introverted Intuition(Ni)

Ni is responsible for the estimation of the passage of time, the understanding of a course of processes in time, and forecasting. Ni understand how things may change and evolve over time and throughout history. Ni is acutely aware of events that are occurring outside of the immediate perception of the moment, and sees events as part of a continuous flow. Ni perceives the possible ramifications of future events and notices ties to the past. Ni observes behavioral patterns and can assess a person's character

Extraverted Sensing(Se)

Se is responsible for the perception, control, defense, and acquisition of space, territory, and control. It observes outward appearances, estimates whether forces are in alignment or conflict, and uses strength of will and power-based methods to achieve purposes. Se understands territory and physical aggression. It is also the function of contact and apprehension of qualia.

Introverted Feeling(Fi)

Fi is responsible for understanding the quality, nature, and proper maintenance of personal relations; makes moral judgments; and aspires to humanism and kindness. Fi has a strong understanding of the social hierarchy and how people feel about each other, their attitudes of like or dislike, enthrallment or disgust, repulsion or attraction, enmity or friendship.

The functions of an ENTP in order of strength:

Extraverted Intuition(Ne)

Ne is responsible for understanding the essence (permanent but not obvious traits) of a thing, estimating the potential and latent capabilities for people and things, and visualizing the likely outcome of events. It is responsible for the sense of interest or boredom. Ne will speculate as to why an event occurs, but sees the specific event as static and unalterable.

Introverted Thinking(Ti)

Ti is responsible for understanding logic and structure, categorizations, ordering and priorities, logical analysis and distinctions, logical explanations. Ti interprets information according to how it fits into a validating system. Ti is particularly aware of logical consistency and how concepts relate to each other in meaning and structure, independently of particular purposes.

Extraverted Feeling(Fe)

Fe is responsible for the perception of an emotional state in an individual and the bodily and linguistic expression of emotions. Fe is able to influence others' emotional condition and to communicate its own, "infecting" others. Fe is used especially in generating and recognizing excitement and enthusiasm.

Introverted Sensing(Si)

Si is responsible for perception of physical sensations; questions of comfort, coziness, and pleasure; and a sense of harmony and acclimation with one's environment (especially physical). Si understand how well a person or thing's behavior agrees with its nature as well as the differences between comfortable behaviors and positions and uncomfortable ones.

[shandwen]

"Lion'el Johnson: ENTJ 6w5 (Extremely distrustful, but also extremely loyal...)" me thinks you mis-read Lion'el... he trusts everyone at face value, but harbors his taint of choas from everyone. He was never distrustful, and that was perhaps his biggest downfall after he threw out his best friend (who was his public relations and discernment).

[GreyCrow]

@Entei : Thanks for the write up ! Very interesting materials there, and it's always good to have shared definitions for easier communication :)

 

Your post strengthen my feeling that Guilliman might be an ENTP. When your definition mentions "understanding the essence", Guilliman wants to understand the essence of war, and then use that knowledge to make his Legion the best it can be.

If we take this quote from Know No Fear (direct Guilliman quote) :

 

 

Two things to note there, Sergeant. One is that there is no such thing as a minor detail. Information is victory. One cannot and should not dismiss any data until one is in a position to evaluate its significance, and that only comes with hindsight. So all detail is important until circumstances render it redundant.

 

To me, this quote not only shows how he feels that knowledge is everything to capture a situation and he's ready to "waste" time analyzing details that would prove redundant later on. He's not trying to optimize his information gathering process in terms of efficiency, but in terms of how well it can help him capture the essence of a situation. It also shows his Ti, because he develops all these theories for warfare, then processes all the information he gathers through that theoretical framework of which he set all the parameters.

 

It's especially the fact that he uses heavy theorizing to set courses of action. This quote regarding ENTPs "Thrive on finding new ways to use theories to make systems more efficient and people better off."

___

 

To be fair, we'll probably never know for sure until the Primarchs take the tests themselves, or whether people that have sufficient knowledge of the Primarchs (like the authors) take the tests in themselves, and even then it's probably going to be irrelevant because they are fake personas :p

 

To add to your distinction between cognitive processes and purpose (that you interestingly related to the enneagram), I think we should make a difference between the objectives of their job with how they go about it. Ultimately, the objective given to each Primarch is to win as many battles as possible, expand the Great Crusade. And the MBTI to me would be more suited to analyzing how they go about it. This is where I tend to think that Guilliman always goes with more theorizing to define his plans of actions rather than Horus who I think tries to simply be the most efficient Legion with the better track record.

 

A final quote from Guilliman :

 

 

 

Space Marines excel at warfare because they were designed to excel at everything. Each of you will become a leader, a ruler, the master of your world and, because there is no more fighting to be done, you will bend your transhuman talents to governance and culture.

 

This is clearly a new an innovative way to look at Space Marines :P I'm not sure many Primarchs look at their soldiers this way : Sanguinius looks at them like his sons, Perturabo looks at them as numbers, Horus looks at them as the finest warriors.

[Entei]

"Lion'el Johnson: ENTJ 6w5 (Extremely distrustful, but also extremely loyal...)" me thinks you mis-read Lion'el... he trusts everyone at face value, but harbors his taint of choas from everyone. He was never distrustful, and that was perhaps his biggest downfall after he threw out his best friend (who was his public relations and discernment).

Oh, Johnson was one of the types I had trouble with. But considering he's famous for his secrecy(common for 5s and 6s) and his whole point in coming to Ultramar was because he didn't trust Guilliman I thought 6 made sense. I'll concede that I haven't read all the DA books, so I could definitely be wrong.

@Entei : Thanks for the write up ! Very interesting materials there, and it's always good to have shared definitions for easier communication

Your post strengthen my feeling that Guilliman might be an ENTP. When your definition mentions "understanding the essence", Guilliman wants to understand the essence of war, and then use that knowledge to make his Legion the best it can be.

If we take this quote from Know No Fear (direct Guilliman quote) :

Two things to note there, Sergeant. One is that there is no such thing as a minor detail. Information is victory. One cannot and should not dismiss any data until one is in a position to evaluate its significance, and that only comes with hindsight. So all detail is important until circumstances render it redundant.

To me, this quote not only shows how he feels that knowledge is everything to capture a situation and he's ready to "waste" time analyzing details that would prove redundant later on. He's not trying to optimize his information gathering process in terms of efficiency, but in terms of how well it can help him capture the essence of a situation. It also shows his Ti, because he develops all these theories for warfare, then processes all the information he gathers through that theoretical framework of which he set all the parameters.

It's especially the fact that he uses heavy theorizing to set courses of action. This quote regarding ENTPs "Thrive on finding new ways to use theories to make systems more efficient and people better off."

___

To be fair, we'll probably never know for sure until the Primarchs take the tests themselves, or whether people that have sufficient knowledge of the Primarchs (like the authors) take the tests in themselves, and even then it's probably going to be irrelevant because they are fake personas

To add to your distinction between cognitive processes and purpose (that you interestingly related to the enneagram), I think we should make a difference between the objectives of their job with how they go about it. Ultimately, the objective given to each Primarch is to win as many battles as possible, expand the Great Crusade. And the MBTI to me would be more suited to analyzing how they go about it. This is where I tend to think that Guilliman always goes with more theorizing to define his plans of actions rather than Horus who I think tries to simply be the most efficient Legion with the better track record.

A final quote from Guilliman :

Space Marines excel at warfare because they were designed to excel at everything. Each of you will become a leader, a ruler, the master of your world and, because there is no more fighting to be done, you will bend your transhuman talents to governance and culture.

This is clearly a new an innovative way to look at Space Marines I'm not sure many Primarchs look at their soldiers this way : Sanguinius looks at them like his sons, Perturabo looks at them as numbers, Horus looks at them as the finest warriors.

To be fair, that first quote is more Ni+Te imo, since Ni makes one aware of the processes of time, absorbing as much information as possible in order to synthesize a vision about reality to be put to use by the judging function(Te or Fe). Ne absorbs immediate information and turns it over and combines it to other things in order to generate ideas(observing the thing's essence of potential) to fit into a personal logical, arbitrary system(Ti) or relationships and personal feelings(Fi). Concerning the essence, the description is a little confusing, since all perceptive functions look at an object's essence differently. For Ne, it's the essence of what could be. Se looks at the essence of what is apparent. Si looks at the essence of what should be, and Ni looks at the essence of what something is beyond what is apparent. Ne is breadth, Ni is depth. Ti is deductive, Te is inductive.

Ni+Te works like this: What is the Legiones Astartes? Significantly altered humans males who are improved in nearly every way(this is the archetypal essence). What is the logical outcome of that realization? They can be used for the same things a human male can be used for, but with much greater efficiency, as well as some as of yet undiscovered things.(logical induction)

Ne+Ti works like this: What is the Legiones Astartes? It depends on how you define that term. You could define them as warriors, or altered humans, or killing-machines, or maybe all three. It's subjective anyway, the possibilities are endless. What is the logical outcome of that realization? If you use the above definition, it means they are not women, or dogs, or cats, etc.(logical deduction) although maybe you could create Legiones Canines!(observation of the essence of potential)

Ti looks at information and parses through it based on what is relevant to the internal system, nitpicking facts to suit a theory that makes sense independent of reality(disregarding all practicality), while Te parses through information in light of what is realistic or practical. Hence why Ti-users can come up with the most ludicrous theories about reality(illuminati, for example), while Te-users on the other hand can be like sheep in their attitude towards commonly accepted facts. Ti does not concern itself with extraverting(to bring something out) facts, just like Te does not sort things into arbitrary categories without a practical purpose for it. If you want to win a battle, gathering as much information about your enemy as possible is the most practical course of action, a fact that any military commander can attest to, because if you have more information than your enemy in a vacuum, you stand a statistically higher chance of winning.

​I think enneagram is relevant because cognition is not all-compassing, and I do think you're attributing a little much to it. Enneagram 1s are primarily concerned with improving and refining things(a theory, people's expressions of emotion, a chair... writing a book about how to best conduct warfare...yep, anything) according to their own inner standard, reforming previous concepts in the process. Just like 3s want to accomplish whatever they deem grandiose enough(again, this could be anything, by inventing a grand theory, or maybe just by conquering worlds). No cognitive function decides this, although some types are more likely to belong to a certain enneagram in my experience.

Ne generates idea after idea for a subjective Ti-system of thought in the ENTP, while Te organizes reality following from a subjective Ni-idea in an ENTJ. That's pretty much it. ENTJs are by definition concerned with realistic efficiency, while ENTPs are not, since they do not consciously use Te. Hence why that quote "ENTPs thrive on finding new ways to use theories to make systems more efficient and people better off." does not follow logically from the functions, since ENTPs by definition do not consciously use Te, and therefore do not often consider efficiency: NTPs prefer not to use theories at all, instead they invent theories and rules to interpret reality, regardless of practicality.
All types can be innovative. Cognition explains how, and Enneagram explains why(which is why I find enneagram interesting when it comes to characters, since it focuses on what kind of archetype said character represents).

Maybe we differ here, but I only use the cognitive functions and their logical extensions of a full type, since again, I think MBTI descriptions are . Socionics(russian MBTI) is also a better alternative to them, albeit way more complicated and less practical(it's an NTP system ).

[GreyCrow]

I should look into that Russian MBTI then

Actually, I think my second quote from Guilliman is typically Ne based on how you present it. He's one of the rare primarchs (along perhaps with Magnus whom you described as INxx and I've seen people associate him with an INTP) that saw something more than what was their original purpose : being efficient killing machines. In the end, Guilliman envisioned them being political leaders and administrators. As such, this is fundamentally a novel idea.

Regarding how you presented the Ne/Ni information gathering in respect to your Nx+Tx decision making process, I think further detail can be given (and no offense intended to you at all here). An Ni would tend to define Astartes based on its own experiences with what they are. Horus views them as both warriors and brothers and never views them as anything else. In turn, this creates a framework that focuses his decision making about how to improve an Astartes and thus reshape them into the best warriors possible. Horus never ever considers them outside of his framework based from his own experience on Cthonia. Typically, an ENTJ will always start deductive explanations by "from my experience..." (which is ironically part of the reason why experience is such an important factor in business recruiting, because most recruiting decision makers also tend to fit within Ni and accept people's experience as face value without having any other comparative way but to take them at their word ).

Similarily, Alpharius (let's assume that he is INTJ as you described him accurately I think) sees them as tools that can be reshaped, but only sees them as tools. He makes each of his Alpha Legionnaires into the perfect tool for everything. That's the subjective part of the introverted intuition (and probably because he is the archetypical high functioning sociopath ).

An Ne on the other hand would always argue that they are warriors, altered humans, killing machines and a ton of other things all at the same time and using this to come up with solutions rather than purely inventions. With the example of your Legionary Canines (and not Canine Legionaries like the Space Wolves, haha), an ENTP would come up with that idea over an ENTJ but not because it's innovative but because it's a solution with a logical improvement to a situation. The difference in solution design between ENTP and ENTJ is the fact that ENTP look towards change and novelty first and foremost while ENTJ look to improve efficiency. Which is why, for example in business, ENTPs tend to be natural entrepreneurs, while ENTJs tend to excel is structures to manage and naturally tend to go towards larger corporations.

In the case of Guilliman, I have the feeling that going for novelty is quite a predominant behavior with him, especially with his love to observe what his brothers do and incorporate it into his own Legions. As readers and fans of the IP of the Horus Heresy, we have all the information regarding all the Legions readily available, but from Guilliman's perspective within the universe, it is a civilization where communication isn't instantaneous. So, while he didn't innovate the Imperium as a whole during the Great Crusade, he did innovate his Legion by incorporating new elements. Because his Legion was his worldview, not the galaxy as a whole

The example of the Fulmentarus Terminators is pretty telling I feel : He observed Perturabo's design, incorporated it into his Legion not because it was more efficient than something he had already (that's not clearly stated however there so I may go on a limb but I trust my analysis ) but because it's something new that he could use to develop new tactics and approaches to situations, and he also judged the unit's design worthy of improvement (in his case by slapping a cloud-computing targeting system to presumably process more information).

Perhaps his process is much more efficiency oriented that I give him credit for (but wouldn't one argue that efficiency in an inefficient organization is a novel idea in itself ? ). But he seems to be looking always at what can be done objectively rather than trying to improve a situation purely in terms of efficiency.

In the example of how he wrote the Codex Astartes for example, we could argue that trying to make an all encompassing compendium of the art of warfare is a pretty ludicrous theorycraft with no basis on practical stuff Because the Codex Astartes is more a set of logical decisions presented in a very theoretical format with no practical basis on the field (which is why many brothers here tend to think it's a stupid idea), because a book can only theorize what's going to happen rather than base a logical decision on the basis of real facts to improve the outcome of a practical situation.

When he decided to split the Legions, it was an extremely novel approach to fighting Chaos, and it would ensure that if someone got corrupted he wouldn't wield the power of a full Legion. It didn't sit well with more conservative Legions and we can't really say it was an efficiency based decision.

____

In any case, I still agree with your enneagram motivation framework 100% !

By the way, I'm not being argumentative, just being a natural ENTP !

EDIT : I do see where you're coming from with Guilliman though and I reread your interpretation of the Primachs based on the MBTI/Enneagrams. You don't think that there is ever a Primarch with Ne+Ti ?

It would make sense tbh, because a Primarch with Ne+Ti reasoning as well as the level of power and influence that a Primarch weilds would probably have reshaped the Imperium or at least brought it significant advancement. I guess a Primarch with the ENTP mindset would have come up with designs such as a tank with the level of firepower of the Fellblade and the carrying capacity of a Spartan.

Perhaps, then, the true ENTP in the 40k universe is the Emprah himself To get back to your example with genetic modification : "Oh, I need a successor, how about I genetically engineer them based of my awesome DNA. What if I had a dog Primarch ? Or a super emo one to scare the crap out of non compliant worlds ? Or a beautiful angelic guy so that I can have natural grandsons ?"

[Entei]

I should look into that Russian MBTI then

Actually, I think my second quote from Guilliman is typically Ne based on how you present it. He's one of the rare primarchs (along perhaps with Magnus whom you described as INxx and I've seen people associate him with an INTP) that saw something more than what was their original purpose : being efficient killing machines. In the end, Guilliman envisioned them being political leaders and administrators. As such, this is fundamentally a novel idea.

Regarding how you presented the Ne/Ni information gathering in respect to your Nx+Tx decision making process, I think further detail can be given (and no offense intended to you at all here). An Ni would tend to define Astartes based on its own experiences with what they are. Horus views them as both warriors and brothers and never views them as anything else. In turn, this creates a framework that focuses his decision making about how to improve an Astartes and thus reshape them into the best warriors possible. Horus never ever considers them outside of his framework based from his own experience on Cthonia. Typically, an ENTJ will always start deductive explanations by "from my experience..." (which is ironically part of the reason why experience is such an important factor in business recruiting, because most recruiting decision makers also tend to fit within Ni and accept people's experience as face value without having any other comparative way but to take them at their word ).

Similarily, Alpharius (let's assume that he is INTJ as you described him accurately I think) sees them as tools that can be reshaped, but only sees them as tools. He makes each of his Alpha Legionnaires into the perfect tool for everything. That's the subjective part of the introverted intuition (and probably because he is the archetypical high functioning sociopath ).

I think you are attributing the properties of Te to Ni here a bit, which is understandable(MBTI does a real cussy job of explaining Ni). It really is not as black or white. Shades of grey, and all that. The same thing that makes strong Ni-users get a sense of what will happen in the future also grants them the ability to shape it to their own ends.(hence the cartoon villain trope of the NTJ) Let me explain how Ni works in reality:

1. Imagine a cup. It probably has a certain shape, texture etc. It might be white/black/yellow/green/whatever. It might contain coffee.

2. Now, in your imagination, remove everything that makes your cup special(the things that separate it from all other cups)

3. The shape, form, colour etc. disappears, and you've got nothing but the vague idea of a cup.

What is left now is the archetype of a cup.

This is how strong Ni-users perceive nearly everything, and Ne does the exact opposite, instead of removing the "special" features, it adds more or jumps from cups to other related things. This grants Ni-users the ability to be innovative, to make long-range plans, and to perceive reality in a completely novel way(thinking outside the box of what is preconcieved). Just like Ne's innovation comes from adding things to and associating with what they already believe a cup to be, making them intuit what could be(inside a preconcieved box). "Anything is possible" is an adage that is true for both forms of intuition, but in differing ways. What is logical is determined by what is real for Te, and what is consistent for Ti. Si on the other hand is the idea of what something should be like in a physical way.

Relying on prior experience is true for all four forms of logic/feeling, Ni/Se-users use a database of what they've experienced in physical reality(Se) and what it represents in the abstract(Ni), and Si/Ne-users use a database of what they feel reality should be like physically(Si), based on the possibilities they spawned(Ne). So Ni is more in touch with what is ACTUALLY possible, while Ne is more in touch with what could be possible IF...

An Ne on the other hand would always argue that they are warriors, altered humans, killing machines and a ton of other things all at the same time and using this to come up with solutions rather than purely inventions. With the example of your Legionary Canines (and not Canine Legionaries like the Space Wolves, haha), an ENTP would come up with that idea over an ENTJ but not because it's innovative but because it's a solution with a logical improvement to a situation. The difference in solution design between ENTP and ENTJ is the fact that ENTP look towards change and novelty first and foremost while ENTJ look to improve efficiency. Which is why, for example in business, ENTPs tend to be natural entrepreneurs, while ENTJs tend to excel is structures to manage and naturally tend to go towards larger corporations.

Again, this is giving way too little credit to Ni in ENTJs. When solving a problem, ENTPs will start brainstorming random possibilities, reigning them in with their inner sense of what they've established as logical. While on the other hand ENTJs abstract things to archetypes, in order to get to the core of the problem, applying it's realistic logical conclusion to reality. So ENTPs are bound by their sense of what is logical(this can be completely unrealistic, or completely based on prior experience) while ENTJs are bound by their ability to draw realistic conclusions(this can be inconsistent with prior theorizing). So when you say "ENTP look towards change and novelty first and foremost" you've gotta ask yourself, in what way? Ne+Ti novelty is very different from Ni+Te novelty. They both have drawbacks and strenghts, but neither is more adept at being novel than the other in a general sense.

In the case of Guilliman, I have the feeling that going for novelty is quite a predominant behavior with him, especially with his love to observe what his brothers do and incorporate it into his own Legions. As readers and fans of the IP of the Horus Heresy, we have all the information regarding all the Legions readily available, but from Guilliman's perspective within the universe, it is a civilization where communication isn't instantaneous. So, while he didn't innovate the Imperium as a whole during the Great Crusade, he did innovate his Legion by incorporating new elements. Because his Legion was his worldview, not the galaxy as a whole

The example of the Fulmentarus Terminators is pretty telling I feel : He observed Perturabo's design, incorporated it into his Legion not because it was more efficient than something he had already (that's not clearly stated however there so I may go on a limb but I trust my analysis ) but because it's something new that he could use to develop new tactics and approaches to situations, and he also judged the unit's design worthy of improvement (in his case by slapping a cloud-computing targeting system to presumably process more information).

Perhaps his process is much more efficiency oriented that I give him credit for (but wouldn't one argue that efficiency in an inefficient organization is a novel idea in itself ? ). But he seems to be looking always at what can be done objectively rather than trying to improve a situation purely in terms of efficiency.

I think the real reason why he added the Fulmentarus is because Forge World decided to invent a new unit and needed a reason. So, it could be for whatever novel/efficient/experimential purpose. Again, Ni grants ENTJs a sense of where things might go, and Te makes them bring it to reality(by experimenting/testing). ENTPs are less concerned with testing things to see if they work, but easily come up with new ideas inside of their framework of logic.

Again, this could be either Ne+Ti or Ni+Te. And this is why I don't really type based on actions as general as this. You really need to observe the exact creative process to know the differance.

Btw, In the enneagram, 1s and 7s are the most obsessed with changing things and using novel methods, no matter what cognitive type. Meaning that an ENTP 9 for example can be less interested in changing things than an ENTJ 1 or 7.

Ne is perception, it does not automatically change things.

In the example of how he wrote the Codex Astartes for example, we could argue that trying to make an all encompassing compendium of the art of warfare is a pretty ludicrous theorycraft with no basis on practical stuff Because the Codex Astartes is more a set of logical decisions presented in a very theoretical format with no practical basis on the field (which is why many brothers here tend to think it's a stupid idea), because a book can only theorize what's going to happen rather than base a logical decision on the basis of real facts to improve the outcome of a practical situation.

Fair point, but just like ENTPs can be efficient, ENTJs can create rigid rules if it serves a practical goal. It's pretty clear to me that in the heresy the Codex was not the holy tome of rigid unbreakable rules it is in 40k. If the rules are created to reach an internally consistent systematic categorization of reality with little practical application, that's pretty Ti. However, that is not how the codex is represented in the time it is written. I quote from Guilliman's writing in Know No Fear here:

“What wins the fight is what wins the fight. Ultimately, nothing should be excluded if that exclusion leads to defeat”

Te always looks to what is the best possible way to do something. That's why strong Te-users plan extensively to cover every possibility. But still, the codex is a matter of interpretation. If you think it's supposed to be a rulebook with laws that may never be broken, then yeah, that indicates Ti. If it's flexible advice and guidelines for how to optimally conduct warfare, it's Te. Right now there is no way to know for sure, I think. On a tangentially related note, I dunno if you've played the Space Marine game, but Titus and Leandros really highlight the differance in adherence to logic between Ti and Te. Titus(a Te-type) adheres to what is optimal and realistic, interpreting the codex as guidelines, while Leandros(a Ti-type) thinks more about what makes sense in itself, and interprets it as a perfect system of rules.

When he decided to split the Legions, it was an extremely novel approach to fighting Chaos, and it would ensure that if someone got corrupted he wouldn't wield the power of a full Legion. It didn't sit well with more conservative Legions and we can't really say it was an efficiency based decision.

Well, it wouldn't be very efficient to risk having a full legion fall to chaos though, would it? Te-types are usually good at calculating if risk is worth the trouble or not. Ne-types are perceivers first and foremost and are therefore usually not as proactive.

Btw, SJs are often known as traditionalists, and they tend to enjoy the random ideas spawned from NPs(since they themselves wish they were good at it), but usually have a hard time with the forceful changes that Se/Ni-types can bring. Ne-types are usually traditionalists at heart, believing that some physical things should never be subjected to change, while Ni-types perceive change as something natural for all things.

____

In any case, I still agree with your enneagram motivation framework 100% !

By the way, I'm not being argumentative, just being a natural ENTP !

EDIT : I do see where you're coming from with Guilliman though and I reread your interpretation of the Primachs based on the MBTI/Enneagrams. You don't think that there is ever a Primarch with Ne+Ti ?

There could be. I'm not that familiar with them all, but Ne+Ti-types are pretty unusual in fiction focusing on war, overall. I do think Sanguinius is an INFP though, there's a great segment in Pharos

where he tells Curze that he thinks there's hope for him still, if only...

which is a good example of Ne-use(similar to Luke in Star Wars). Magnus could be INTP, but it was years since I read A Thousand Sons.

It would make sense tbh, because a Primarch with Ne+Ti reasoning as well as the level of power and influence that a Primarch weilds would probably have reshaped the Imperium or at least brought it significant advancement. I guess a Primarch with the ENTP mindset would have come up with designs such as a tank with the level of firepower of the Fellblade and the carrying capacity of a Spartan.

Yeah, albeit failing to notice that the troops inside got too injured by the pounding machinery to be of much use.

Perhaps, then, the true ENTP in the 40k universe is the Emprah himself To get back to your example with genetic modification : "Oh, I need a successor, how about I genetically engineer them based of my awesome DNA. What if I had a dog Primarch ? Or a super emo one to scare the crap out of non compliant worlds ? Or a beautiful angelic guy so that I can have natural grandsons ?"

Haha, yeah. It's possible.

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