Guard and The Crunch

[WarriorFish]

Having just had a game where I took some big guns to "enforce" the will of the Guard it got me thinking a bit. We know that our codex is a bit behind now and this is chiefly in the Formation stakes as we have slim pickings but generally we can compete well enough. The difficulties arise when we go up against the best stuff - our "best" units in the codex aren't exactly what we can call death stars, Pask being mean but suffering from all the vulnerabilities we know well for example.

So what do you do to combat the best units of other codices when they come knocking at your door? Please share your tips, tricks and favourite units here and we can discuss how to get the most from the Guard - or rather how to reduce our foes to the least You can also specify enemy units and how you deal with them too as part of this.

Only one rule: Guard (GW or FW) stuff only, try to keep the allied additions and tricks to a minimum please. No fluff or themes necessary, just The Crunch

To start us off and to add my own thoughts; yesterday's game only cemented yet further my love of Demolishers (the cannons, as much as a tough chassis to mount it on). S10 AP2 answers most questions well enough, especially if you roll out yet more. Large pie plate means you've got better odds of hitting stuff (or something...) and of course ordnance for handling vehicles! I can put three Demolisher tanks on the table if I want so I'm curious about these squadron bonus rules we should be getting. Coupled with a healthy supply of cheaper troops to hold the line and keep flies off your back they can do much.

[duz_]

Pask in punisher with plasmacutioner buddy

At least 2 wyvrens ideally separate squads

Priests for blobs of 30+ and psykers too

Vendettas if you can squeeze one in (and this is even with my luck of them never showing up til turn 4)

Vets with melta in taruox been running this last few games and for the points they do a good job of grabbing objectives and dealing out AT punishment

A suicide squad of 5 scions 2 with melta deep striking in is always handy too

 

Unfortunately pask and wyvrens reputations proceed them and they're always high priority targets :-\

And know with the optimized stealth cadre, haywire and grav it really doesn't matter they're AV14/12.

 

 

I have to admit though at 1500+ point games I usually ally in something else

In fact I was at a local gw store tournament last weekend and even at 1000pts I didn't bring pure guard ...

[CyderPirate]

No crazy combos here, but Medusas (Medusae?) and Death Riders have been fantastic against MEQs.  

 

Planning to convert up some Thunderers for slightly cheaper Demolisher cannons, too. 

 

Still struggling to deal with the mobility of Eldar/Tau. 

[Arcima]

I have had a good amount of success with Devil Dogs against certain death star units, mostly Necron's.  At my store I am one of three guard players, and the only who who likes anything from fast attack!  On that note I have found some rather amusing success with my Armored Sentinels where they have glanced a few vindicators to death with multi-lasers, but they also hold up most units with out dedicated anti tank in CC.

 

As far as some of the other books out there.... Eldar I don't struggle too much with if I get first turn, (again my love of Hellhounds and Sentinels doing work), but Tau I have an atrocious win rate against.  Necrons & Space Marines I do rather well against with various pieces of artillery.

[Truesight]

Learn the rules for tank shock.  2-3 Chimeras can kill a deathstar with tank shock if he doesn't see it coming (He won't). (Conqueror Russ is actually amazing for this purpose)

 

Decide which of your units are for dying, and which are for killing.  I have found having a unit of conscripts with a commissar invaluable.  I would never make a list without them.  They may have killed 3 or 4 models in their time, but have stalled : Imperial Knights, Thunderwolf Cavalry, Necron Wraiths, Wraithknights etc etc.

Those units would have destroyed critical parts of my army and won the game, instead they were stuck munching on 3 point models while I destroyed the critical parts of my opponents army.

 

Heavy artillery carriages.  Take a unit of 2 basilisks and a unit of 1 medusa and give them ignore cover orders. Nothing the opponent can bring will like getting hit with that.

 

Rapier laser destroyers.  Heavy weapon teams only wish they could be so useful.

 

In these days of death stars and extreme monstrous creatures, I'm finding myself taking more and more troops.  D is everywhere, and Tau hit my rear armour, my Russ' are struggling to compete.  However, those weapons are no better than a boltgun against my guardsman blobs.  I'm finding MSU Death Korps squads and big blobs of guard infantry very valuable, as people aren't ready to try and kill 100 guardsman.

[librisrouge]

I'm feeling the same way about flyers as I am about infantry, that they might be the best way for IG to compete in this dark new world we find ourselves in. While IG flyers are not the best in the game (which isn't to say that they're bad) they are capable and bring a decent amount of firepower. Plus, they're flyers. While it may seem a bit rock paper scissors, enemies without an AA contingency will find themselves in a dark place against even two or three flyers. Plus, almost all of the IG flyers are transports. Put some cheap infantry in there if only for late game objective shenanigans. 

[HenricusTyranicus]

I really like the look of the Emperor's Shield Platoon. Take 5 heavy bolters, steal a chimera for the PCS, order Fire and Advance every turn, and kill infantry like nothing else. Take a CAD alongside it for a Primaris Psyker giving rerolls, and maybe Straken giving counter attack. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I've had problems with hordes, and monstrous creatures. I know that solution to hordes, and that's lots of flamers and blast templates. Up until recently, My army was entirely airborne, and based on stormtroopers. While I'm still very heavy on the stormtroopers, I have expanded my forces. I'm running a more mechanized list now, with stormies in chimeras, and light vets in tauroxes. I'm also packing in a Company command tank and a demolisher from the ABG list, for some beast hunting and horde smashing.

 

Tyranids have given me the most problems so far, because I don't see them often and there are several decent builds for them.

[WarriorFish]

Good stuff, plenty to muse upon methinks. I've been thinking some more and what about specific threats? For example charging Land Raiders are a regular occurrence for me, and what about the much maligned Wraithknight? Specific schemes and units for tackling certain tactics and units is also most welcome. For some more ideas; your favourite way to take down flyers? What about that close combat power house character?

 

I've found my picket units to be almost essential for victory against such things. Slowing the enemy down as well as offering some measure of threat goes a long way. A cheap Guardsman squad can keep the enemy at bay as you bring your real power to bear, the extra turn or two goes a very long way. Often the enemy must sacrifice either precious fire power or turns to try and negate them and I always make sure to have another answer waiting for them.

 

That's the Vet squads, Sentinels and Hellhounds I usually refer to as "counter attack" units - waiting for the anvil to lock their actions for His Hammer to fall...

[Akrim]

The Emperors Wrath artillery company has been my go-to lately, it's just so wonderfully destructive. With a proper barrier of infantry to keep drop pods or deep strikers away it's tough.

 

A lot of my other frequent units have been mentioned already. I do like to mix in an Eversor Assassin here and there to help with assaults.

[Goonbandito]

Good stuff, plenty to muse upon methinks. I've been thinking some more and what about specific threats? For example charging Land Raiders are a regular occurrence for me, and what about the much maligned Wraithknight? Specific schemes and units for tackling certain tactics and units is also most welcome. For some more ideas; your favourite way to take down flyers? What about that close combat power house character?

 

I've found my picket units to be almost essential for victory against such things. Slowing the enemy down as well as offering some measure of threat goes a long way. A cheap Guardsman squad can keep the enemy at bay as you bring your real power to bear, the extra turn or two goes a very long way. Often the enemy must sacrifice either precious fire power or turns to try and negate them and I always make sure to have another answer waiting for them.

 

That's the Vet squads, Sentinels and Hellhounds I usually refer to as "counter attack" units - waiting for the anvil to lock their actions for His Hammer to fall...

The only thing I've found remotely viable in the codex for taking on Wraithknights is Pask in a Punisher, and even then you come up short (especially if the Wraithknight is in cover). The most effective way to deal with Wraithknights is still to ally in Space Marine Grav, unless you are playing ABG and using Beast Hunter shells I guess.

 

Land Raiders aren't too much trouble imo - between Melta Vets, Pask in Punisher, Vanquishers and bubble wrap I haven't found them to be a huge worry.

 

Hydras, despite the nerf, still do an OK job at AA. If you take them in the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Formation you can even give them back Ignores Cover via Orders. Flyrants are definitely the biggest problem still, since they have a 3+ Armour Save and won't need to jink. But 2 Hydras will on average put 1 glance, 1 pen out on an AV12 flyer unless it jinks so either way you're probably doing alright.

[Arcima]

My solution to the charging land raider is bringing an aegis line with max tank traps.  Best part is you don't have to deploy the aegis line in your deployment zone, only on your board half so you can place is a few more inches forward and simply move up to the wall if needed.  This may just be good for me because we almost exclusively play on city maps at my store.

[WarriorFish]

I wonder if we'll get some grav one day? WKs are something that troubles me in that they're a lot tougher than "normal" MCs and fast. Demolishers are great of course but their weakness is higher wound models they can't splat outright with Instant Death. The solution isn't just in volume of fire but also getting the quality needed too.

 

Land Raiders are irritating me purely from repetition. Going through the same old tricks works but gets boring, unfortunately you've only really got one turn to stop them hitting your lines if you want the more direct solution which isn't easy. What about fortifications, are they worthwhile considerations for a Guard commander? I can appreciate their benefits but they always felt a bit too expensive and static for me.

[Goonbandito]

Demolishers are probably one of worst options to target Wraithknights - anything that shoots a single blast or shot is.  S10 wounds it easy, but its only ever going to do a single wound and then the Wraithknight has at least a 1 in 3 chance to ignore it from its Feel No Pain anyway.  If its got a toe in a ruin, then it has a 2 in 3 chance to shrug it off.  That's why at least Pask in Punisher is the only real option - but even then he's only doing roughly 2.5 wounds a turn on average to a Wraithknight which has 5+ cover or Invuln.  And that's assuming hes the Warlord as well, so he gets Preferred Enemy.

 

The only other option in the codex is to tarpit it with a conscript blob and hope he fails to stomp out the Priests keeping the blob Fearless.  But good luck catching a Jump GMC with that blob...  Or Shadowswords of course, but even thing you're still playing a losing game of who can D the other guy first and your tank is 2/3rds again more expensive and shoots only half as many D shots as the Wraithknight :\

[rorhammer]

The problem is with the WK is generally your going to invest at least double the cost in points of firepower of the WK to bring it down safely. How about the Emperors Talon Recon formation loaded up with Las and H-K's pairing for first turn maximum output? 

 

50 krak grenades is the most fun option...

[Goonbandito]

The problem is with the WK is generally your going to invest at least double the cost in points of firepower of the WK to bring it down safely. How about the Emperors Talon Recon formation loaded up with Las and H-K's pairing for first turn maximum output? 

 

50 krak grenades is the most fun option...

It would take 18 Sentinels armed with Lascannon/Hunter Killer Missiles and getting Preferred Enemy from the Formation against the Wraithknight to do on average just enough unsaved wounds to kill a Wraithknight which has 5+ Cover or a 5+ Invuln...  That's over 1000pts of Sentinels, ie more than 3x the cost of a Wraithknight. 

 

50 Krak grenades from WS3 models will do on average less than 1 unsaved wound to the Wraithknight...  Even when you add a Priest in to give Hatred and assume the War Hymn goes off so you can re-roll To Wounds, you're still only doing 2.5 unsaved wounds on average.

 

While kinda hilarious to put 20 Sentinels on the field, its not at all an effective way to bring down a Wraithknight :(

[rorhammer]

The grenades were a tongue in cheek suggestion

I think the answer lies in bully tactics as there is no one unit for the job. You suggest Punisher-Pask, what would you run with him to support him in chipping away at the WK's wound pool?

[RADU LYKAN]

I remember running the numbers on rough riders plus Strakens furious charge v a wraith knight, didn't work as well as I had hoped :)

[duz_]

I've punisher pask with plasmacutioner very effective against them

[CyderPirate]

Aren't Vendettas going to be the best thing to take down WKs? I don't think anything will kill it in a single turn, so the Eldar player can choose the one/two units that pose a threat and D 'em off the board before they can take it down. 

[WarriorFish]

A good number of twin-linked lascannons would be great yes, even more so from a height so it's a bit harder to get cover. However one isn't going to cut it, you'd be looking at two with some ground support still. Vendettas aren't cheap but as they can hunt aircraft too they're looking like a solid option no matter your needs. Like most things it's be a combination approach and a combination in arms in doing so can only be a good thing - harder for your opponent to avoid or negate them all that way.

[RADU LYKAN]

Would the enfeeble (?) psychic power help? Ignore it first turn, turn two with reserve shenanigans your vendetta squadron flies in, your 3 primaris and their inquisitor friends magically get through the eldar psychic defence, enfeeble the wraith knight,pask and his executioner team mate open up followed by the vendettas then buoyed up by Strakens furious charge your rough riders thunder in? Too many points? Lol

[Lukash_]

Would the enfeeble (?) psychic power help? Ignore it first turn, turn two with reserve shenanigans your vendetta squadron flies in, your 3 primaris and their inquisitor friends magically get through the eldar psychic defence, enfeeble the wraith knight,pask and his executioner team mate open up followed by the vendettas then buoyed up by Strakens furious charge your rough riders thunder in? Too many points? Lol

 

Good luck getting off psychic powers vs Eldar. And that is far too many points.

 

The best way of beating a Wraithknight is to spam the heck out of infantry squads. Those D shots may be scary, but they're only nuking a couple of guys every turn.

[WarriorFish]

Yeah, we're not a psychic army so we can't compete against that sort of thing sadly. Combined arms is the order of the day - just the combination of our best units and guns...

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Except the Psykana division lets us take god like psychic stuff now. Say what you will about the Cadian battlegroup, the formations for it are pretty boss. I mean it's a huge points cost, but if you play big enough games to field that sort of thing, you can wreck face in the psychic phase. Especially when you can generate 11+d6 dice for your psychic phase if you max it out.

 

Just saying that's an option, not a good one necessarily but it is one.

 

As for a wraithknight, I'd be tempted to load up on Armored battlegroup tanks, a command vanquisher tank and 2-3 commissar vanquisher tanks with beast hunter shells, and just mass fire at it. Instant death can strip up to 3 wounds at a time from Gargantuan creatures, that ought to bring it down. Lots of points but if you want it down in one turn you'll need to sink a ton of points into killing it. It also doesn't hurt to have a bunch of BS4 vanquishers that can fire S8AP2 instant death blasts or S8AP2 armorbane shots. Versatile unit.