Some fluff questions.

[Ekim_Trub]

Hey guys, been thinking more on the origins of my DIY Chapter, and it has raised a few questions- 
 

• I know there is evidence of Companies within the Legions displaying their own heraldry and, in some cases, alternate colour schemes- is this something we think the XIXth Legion/Raven Guard would do? (I haven't found any evidence to support the idea yet.)
   
• Could a Successor Chapter be founded using a pre-Heresy Chapter of the Raven Guard as it's inspiration? (In honour of/in memory of sort of thing.)
  And would it be possible for a Marine to still be serving (without being interred in a Dreadnought) at the time of the Third Founding who had served during the years immediately after Isstvan V and the subsequent restructuring of the Legion?
   
• And finally, what is the generally opinion on using the Mor Deythan, Dark Furies and Forge World Raven Guard kits to represent a Successor Chapter? Or would it be better to use them to represent a pre-Heresy Company?
  
  Thanks.

[ddarz]

Dont see why not

 

Again, the fluff inflexible enough :)

 

I play raptors and you can bet that I have mor deythan and furies models in there ;)

 

The nice thing about playing reasonable marines is that they are not married to one colour scheme. I'm sure even the pure RG were flexible

Your models, your choice I say! I'll always vote for rule of cool

[shandwen]

I will say blood angel fluff has said Dante is the oldest marine outside of dreads, so probably no to the third founding marine... unless its a time jump issue (completely plausible for a legion to have a company or even chapter have popped out of the warp 7-10 thousand years late and convert to a codex chapter...).

[Sons of Ananta]

Shandwen, I think he's saying the marine was alive at the Isstvan V until the 3rd founding, not that he's alive now.

[Emicus]

The XIX is fairly autonomous, it has to be to survive at it's own initiative behind enemy lines for sometimes years at a time, why not have someone displaying personal heraldry? Just because we're sneaky doesn't mean we aren't proud.

​Surviving Istvaan and living to the Third Founding? Stranger things have surely happened. When in doubt, blame the Monitorums paperwork for an error (it's much more realistic than 'the Warp' even if the Warp is a great last ditch explanation for anything and everything' (why is the sky blue? Warp. Why is water wet? Warp...)

​Using those models? I can't make any consensus by my lone self but I'd be perfectly fine with it. Your wallet might not be however. I mean they're just different looking Vanguards, etc.

[Nusquam]

There is only one well known pre-heresy 'chapter' that has distinctly different heraldry, The Pale Nomads; they were all the terrans that filled the ranks before recruiting from Deliverance. Those recruited after were all proper Raven Guard with various predatory bird markings. The Nomads were officially recognized as a 'chapter' but its a bit more loose than a standard chapter/company. So within there could have been variations between the different predatory fleets they comprised.

 

Post heresy you can do anything you want easily. The Carcharodons were the 7th Predation fleet of the Pale Nomads. So you could easily have a different fleet become a different chapter. Another example were the Raptors(The Next-Generation Astartes 2.0) that formed with the Raptors(Post-Massacre Company) went on to create the Raptors(Post Heresy Chapter). As for a surviving marine, it's possible and an artistic liberty you can take. If you're looking for precedence to support it, the examples above work.

 

The kits? Go for it. They are very cool.

[Ekim_Trub]

Thanks for the replies guys, but now I think I have more questions than answers.  

So, we have established that (with some creativity) it is possible for a Marine to have survived Isstvan V, made it through to the time of the 3rd Founding and aided in founding a Successor Chapter before meeting his demise shortly after. 
And as for using the RG specific models for a Successor Chapter, the rule of cool applies and to go for it.

Now, for questions the answers have raised in my head: my understanding of the "Pale Nomads" name was it was just a name given to the XIXth by the Luna Wolves, so does that mean the "Dust Clad" (& the "Deliverers") were not the same force but instead another Chapter within the Legion?
With it being established that the Carcharodons originate from the 7th Nomad-Predation Fleet of the Pale Nomads, does that mean there was several fleets of the same Chapter or just that the Pale Nomads were the 7th fleet? And do we have any indication as to how many of these fleets there was? Were the Pale Nomads the only exiled Chapter or were there others (the Dust Clad perhaps)?

 

[Nusquam]

The Pale Nomads are referenced as a 'chapter' in a quote attributed to "Strike Leader Tare Reihan, Pale Nomads Chapter of the Raven Guard". The terrans as a whole were referenced as both Pale Nomads and Dust Clad, originally by the Luna Wolves, though the former is the only 'official' one I've read and the latter is more informal. They seem to be used interchangeably but it's not explicit. If you favor the Dust Clad then perhaps one marine could have done so too and could have easily founded a chapter based on it to continue the xeric traditions.

 

They were the '7th Predation Fleet', implying that there were at least 6 other predation fleets populated by terrans. Most of the terrans that survived Gate 42 were 'exiled' into the predation fleets. Some were recalled, others showed up in various places. Their lore beyond that is vague.

[Ekim_Trub]

Thank you. Certainly gives me some more things to think on now.

 

Interesting to hear that some of the Terrans were recalled though, I always believed that Corax had never recalled those he exiled- which given the devastation wrought on the Legion never really made sense to me, unless he could not trust their loyalty?

[shandwen]

Thank you. Certainly gives me some more things to think on now.

 

Interesting to hear that some of the Terrans were recalled though, I always believed that Corax had never recalled those he exiled- which given the devastation wrought on the Legion never really made sense to me, unless he could not trust their loyalty?

I doubt they were exiled because of a doubt to thier loyalty. It is far more likely they were exiled because it brought up bad memories of Deliverance and Horus.

[Nusquam]

They're MO was too cruel for Coraxs taste. Quick, efficient, but dirty.

 

I'll have to look for the blurb on the fleets post massacre again to double check exactly what they did.

[Conn Eremon]

It outright stated on pg 138 of Extermination that Corax does not call them back, and it shows the narrator is unaware of their fates.

 

However, while we know Corax did not do anything, we don't know what other commanders did or what the Terrans themselves chose.

 

We only know that Corax did not himself recall them, and that whatever they did do is not known to the rather well-informed narrator.

 

That still leaves plenty of room for things to happen.

 

And while pg 138 does state "no," perhaps there is another page or source that throws some further doubt or contradicts it.

[Nusquam]

On 139, in the shattered legion box, it says that the XIX fleets made of terrans were returning and it would take months to arrive.

[Ekim_Trub]

I didn't think there would of been any question of the Terrans loyalty to the Imperium/Emperor upon their exile, however, considering their history and bond with Horus & the Luna Wolves- could they be trusted not to have sided with the traitors upon being recalled? After all, it was Corax who removed them from the Warmaster's side then exiled them from their own Legion, that must surely be something to be a cause of resentment and bitterness.

Sounds like that the fate of the fleets has deliberately been left vague in order to allow us to decide for ourselves what became of them. I would imagine some of the fleets (or at least elements from them) would of sided with Horus or went rogue given the circumstances.

[Conn Eremon]

All I see are RG marking samples.

 

Are you looking at Extermination?

[Ekim_Trub]

I really need to get that book, but hard to justify a £74 book to the Wife when I have just dropped £100 a week in wages after a restructuring of my shifts. 

[Nusquam]

It was the Battle of Gate 42 that sealed the dislike of horus for the terran RG that survived.

[Ekim_Trub]

In what way? Did the Battle of Gate 42 change the surviving Terrans opinion of Horus? (Was it a realisation that he was using them as nothing but an expendable tool to further the glory of the Luna Wolves and in turn himself?)

[Nusquam]

Well most of them died following Horus orders. It's implied that that's why they didn't turn traitor. Either those who would have didn't survive and/or they didn't appreciate being used improperly.

[Ekim_Trub]

Got a question regarding the exiled fleets- is it feasible for one of them to remain loyal/not hate Corax for their exile? Would it be believable that they maybe understood his reason for exiling them, accepted it, and embraced it?

 

Also, we know Corax never recalled the fleets, but do we think it may have been possible for them to have spoken with each other?

[shandwen]

There is so little mentioned about the predation fleets that most questions couldn't be answered. We can pull very little from the blurb about the former legion master sent out on the 7th fleet, and what that implies could be up in the air (perhaps the other six were already back in the legion force?). If you hold to the idea of the Charcaradons being one of these fleets (probable) than we could pull a bit more from there. In all we all wait with anticipation gor the next release of info for this.

[Nusquam]

Carcharodons stayed loyalist. See no reason why others couldn't. We'll probably see in book 6 for shattered legions. Since each legion is getting a new rite of war; I bet the predation fleets will be mentioned or possibly be the new RoW for RG seeing as how their return is called "A Shattered Legion" in book 3.

[Ekim_Trub]

Hopefully more information is given, as I think I could make the Predation Fleet angle work for the origins of my DIY Chapter. Only problem will be going off second hand information until I can squirrel away the money for the books.

[Nusquam]

I totally forgot about the Ashen Claws, Shade Lord Fal used them in one of HH3s stories, which just got a paint scheme too. There might be more info on them.

[Ekim_Trub]

Hmmm.....from the little I can read on them, they seem to favour a similar combat doctrine as my Sable Hawks. It would appear I have (without meaning to & without owning any of the FW books) created a good mix of the XIXth Legion/Raven Guard fluff.

I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, and because I don't have access to all the fluff personally, it has left me a little down-heartened with the project to be honest. For my own peace of mind I need my Chapter to fit into the established background, and at the moment, they just come across as a rip-off of FW's ideas.