[HH1.0] Blood Angels Tactica - Assault Cannons For Days

[Gorgoff]

It all comes down to the point cost.

I dare to predict that Angels Tears will be horrible overcosted just like the Crimson Paladins.

But we'll see.

[Charlo]

Depends. Destroyers getting a point reduction will hopefully factor into them too. I don't expect suspensor web assault cannons to be cheap though!

[Gorgoff]

Depends. Destroyers getting a point reduction will hopefully factor into them too. I don't expect suspensor web assault cannons to be cheap though!

They get Suspenser Web Assault Cannons?

Ok, now you got attention.

[m0nolith]

It all comes down to the point cost.

I dare to predict that Angels Tears will be horrible overcosted just like the Crimson Paladins.

But we'll see.

Are Crimson Paladins overcosted?

Do you have their points?

[Indefragable]

From here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/353615-malevolence-character-rule-discussion/?p=5249048

 

Because I geek out on weird things, I wanted to do a short analysis on the "Big Four" personal combatants (as positioned by ADB) in the HH setting.

 

We now have Sigismund, Sevatarion, Raldoron, and Abaddon.

 

Stats comparison

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Raldoran:

180pts

 

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          5          4          4          3          5          4          10        2+

 

Infantry (Character)

 

Artificer armour

The Encarmine Warblade

Combi-flamer

Bolt pistol:       S4 AP- 12” Pistol

Iron halo:        4++

Frag & krak grenades

 

Encarmine Fury: +1 To Wound (but only if opposing units could already be wounded)

Independent Character

Master of the Legion

Furious Charge:           +1S

Archein of Wisdom:    Raldoron may pick his Warlord trait from the Legiones Astartes Army List Warlord Traits table

            1: Bloody Handed: model + unit cause Fear

2: Master Tactician: After both sides have deployed but before which side goes first has been determined, this Warlord’s side may redeploy units within the parameters of the mission. Units in Reserve may be placed on the table and vice versa.

3: World Burner: nominate D3 units within Primary Detachment with the Blast or Template rule; they gain Shred

4: Paladin of Glory: Fearless and any units from same Legion in 6” are +1 to the Wounds score to see who won an Assault

            5: Void Walker: Adamantium Will + one nominated Infantry unit gains Deep Strike

6: Child of Terror: model and any unit he joins may re-roll To Wound rolls of 1 in close combat

 

The Encarmine warblade:       S+1 AP2 Melee, Master-crafted, Shred, Murderous Strike

            Murderous Strike: To Wound rolls of 6 have Instant Death

 

 

 

Sigismund

230pts

 

 

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          4          4          4          4          5          4          10        2+

 

Infantry (Character)

 

Artificer armour

The Black Sword: S+2 AP2 Melee, Two-Handed

Mater-crafted Bolt pistol:        S4 AP- 12” Pistol

Iron halo:        4++

Frag & krak grenades

 

Imperial Fists: MUST issue/fight Challenges and re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 when doing so.

Independent Character

Master of the Legion

Eternal Warrior

Fearless

Adamantium Will

Dolorous Fighter: in a challenge, attacks have Instant Death and opponent’s successful invulnerable rolls must be re-rolled

Death’s Champion: +1I on the charge, re-roll charges and Sweeping Advance rolls

Precision Strike

Warlord:

Slayer of Kings: If Sigismund slays the enemy Warlord in a challenge, then his controlling player gains +1VP and all models in his army add +1 to Combat Resolution scores for the rest of the battle.

 

 

 

Sevatar

175pts

 

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          5          4          4          3          6          4          9          3+

 

Infantry (Character)

 

Power Armor

Iron Halo

Frag and krak grenades

Master-Crafted Nostraman chainglaive:          S+1 AP3 Melee, Two-handed, Rending

Bolt pistol

Master of the Atramentar: NL Terminators/Term Command Squads do not scatter if placed within 6” of Sevatar when Deep Striking

Trophies of Judgement:           Fear

 

Night Lords

Master of the Legion

Dirty Legion:   Instant Death when fighting in a challenge

Repressed Psyker: ML1, but may never harness more than 2WC and is Ld7 for Perils of the Warp

Precision Strike

Warlord:

            Master of Ambush: all friendly Outflanking units have the Acute Senses trait.

 

 

Ezekyle Abaddon

215pts

WS      BS        S          T          W        I           A         Ld        Sv

7          5          4          4          3          5          4          10        2+

 

Infantry (Character)

Justaeran Warplate:     2+/4++

Master-crafted Power Fist:      Sx2 AP2 Melee, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy

One of the following:

1. Combi-bolter   24” S4 AP- Rapid Fire, Twin-linked
2. Power sword:  S:User AP Melee

Grenade Harness:        8” S3 AP- Assault 2, Blast (3”), One Use Only

 

Sons of Horus

Master of the Legion

Fearless

Teleporter Assault: Abaddon + any Term unit he joins may Deep Strike and re-roll Deep Strike Mishap when they do so.

Marked by Dark Fates

Bulky

Independent Character

Precision Strike

Warlord:

            Intimidating Presence: enemy units within 12” must use lowest Leadership value

 

Short (non-mathematical) analysis:

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Stats wise they are all pretty similar, with Raldoron getting an extra attack (totaling 5) from having bolt pistol+fancy sword. Both Sigismund and Sevatar's weapons are Two-handed and Abaddon's is as single specialist weapon so they miss out.

 

Sevatar goes first with I6, although Siggy is I6 on the charge and Ral could be I6 on the charge if taken in Day of Revelation. Abaddon is Unwieldy.

 

Defensively, Sev is the whipping boy with a 3+/4++ compared to the other three's 2+/4++. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Sigismund has that Previous Eternal Warrior to protect against Instant Death. Ral and Abby fall in between, though Abby has Fearless which can benefit in non-duel situations.

 

On attack Sigismund wins hands-down: he re-roll's 1's To Hit, wounds T4 on 2's, and every attack has Instant Death...though the kicker that puts him on top alone is the fact that opponent's must re-roll failed invuln saves. That's nuts. Sevatar maaaaay be second, me thinks, because of the more reliable I6 and the consistent Instant Death as well...the wounding on "only" 3's and only AP3 don't seem good, but there is Rending in there. Abaddon has Instant Death since his Power fist would double-out the others, while Ral is stuck with hoping for 6's To Wound, though with 5A and 2+ re-rollable (Shred) To Wounds, he could get some through. Don't know if Abby would survive to swing his First against these others, however. Both Abby and Ral have Master Crafting to re-roll a single 1 To Hit. Not as good as Sig, but still better than Sev.

 

Wildcards are Sev's ML1 Psychic stuff and <bemused smirk> Ral's combi-flamer, which gives a slight Overwatch advantage if he gets charged. Ral's lack of Precision Strike would also hurt if they were hidden in blobs of other units (which, seriously, why wouldn't they be?)

 

So long-story-short, Sigismund is the winner by a mile (he's a mini-Primarch), while Sevatar, Raldoron, and Abbadon all are reasonably comparable. Abby seems the weakest, to be honest, with not enough strengths to make up for weaknesses.

 

TL;DR: Raldoron's rules are deceptive in that despite their apparent simplicity, he can hang in there with the big boys though I don't know if he has quite enough to be truly competitive.

 

[Indefragable]

If unit A makes unit B count as Troops, does that mean unit B fulfills the Compulsory Troops requirement?

 

Aka if Sangy makes Dawnbringers Troops, does that mean you have to take ASM in the DoR RoW?

[m0nolith]

If unit A makes unit B count as Troops, does that mean unit B fulfills the Compulsory Troops requirement?

 

Aka if Sangy makes Dawnbringers Troops, does that mean you have to take ASM in the DoR RoW?

DoR states that "Compulsory HQ and Troops choices for this detachment must be made up of units equipped with jump packs."

Meaning, yes you can take Dawnbringers as your compulsory units since they are Troops under Sanguinius, in addition to a Praetor/Delegatus/Warmonger.

[Gorgoff]

 

It all comes down to the point cost.

I dare to predict that Angels Tears will be horrible overcosted just like the Crimson Paladins.

But we'll see.

Are Crimson Paladins overcosted?

Do you have their points?

Nah, I'm predicting here.

Means: I am probably right, because of reasons. :D

[Blindhamster]

My understanding is they're a pretty good unit. In no small part because they're quite tanky and their sergeant can have a blade of perdition.

[Charlo]

Plus the sarge has two wounds right? So probably has an extra attack too, making him a mini champion in his own right!

[Indefragable]

 

If unit A makes unit B count as Troops, does that mean unit B fulfills the Compulsory Troops requirement?

 

Aka if Sangy makes Dawnbringers Troops, does that mean you have to take ASM in the DoR RoW?

DoR states that "Compulsory HQ and Troops choices for this detachment must be made up of units equipped with jump packs."

Meaning, yes you can take Dawnbringers as your compulsory units since they are Troops under Sanguinius, in addition to a Praetor/Delegatus/Warmonger.

 

 

 

++++

 

Next question:

 

How many Detachments can you take in a single army if all models are from the same Faction/Legion?

 

Getting my wires cross with 8th a bit too much, so in 30k can you do say both a White Scars Armored Spearhead + a White Scars Angel's Wrath in the same army?

 

++++

 

So in terms of synergies for the IX, here's what I have been wrapping my head around.

 

In general, I'm categorizing IX Legion capabilities into 2x broad buckets: "Heavy" and "Light"

 

Heavy = Crimson Paladins as an anchor unit and abusing the out of Oprah Assault Cannons

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I think Raldoron, being a footslogger, would fit well with this mold as you'll probably have lots of Transports

 

and Light which is very much the "High Speed, Low Drag" model I have always dreamed of Blood Angels being. Makes heavy use of Jump Pack units and most likely Sanguinius for synergy.

 

I will be focusing mostly on the Light version since that is where my interest lies.

 

New units:

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Crimson Paladins

-terminators with 2+/3++ and -1S to enemy attacks, 5+ FNP if outnumbered

-could be great as a gum-up-the-middle of the board unit, acting as an anvil to the hammer of the rest of the force (funnily enough, more of what I pictured Keshig doing for the V Legion...the exception that proves the rule)

 

Angel's Tears

-Destroyers with volkite pistols/suspensor web assault cannons

 

Dawnbringers

-WS5 2+ armor jump troops with either AP2-on-charge spears or +1I dual swords

 

Jump Contemptor

-one use only "jump pack" that can once per game either Deep Strike OR move 12" OR roll 3D6" charge

 

 

Primarch

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(just focusing on army buffs at the moment)

 

-makes all Jump units able to re-roll charges (more or less)

-can take Dawnbringers or Crimson Paladins as compulsory Troops

 

 

Rites of War:

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Angel's Wrath:

Effects:

-Any model with Jump Infantry (does this include Sanguinius?) gains the Hit & Run special rule if it did not have it already

-Any unit eligible to take a Rhino as a DT can take a Storm Eagle instead

-Storm Eagles + Fire Raptors gain Strafing Run (+1 To Hit ground targets)

 

Limitations:

-Only Jump Infantry, Skimmer, and Jetbike units and Infantry transported in Skimmer/Flyers may be part of this force

-Not unit with the Tank type (unless also Skimmer/Flyer) can be taken

-No Fortification or Allied Detachment

 

Drop Assault Vanguard

Effects:

-At least half of the Legion Assault Squads in the army must always enter play using the Deep Strike special rule. At the beginning of the controlling player's first turn, this 'Assault Vanguard' may deploy all of its Legion Assault Squads at once.

-In the player turn after that in which the Assault Vanguard deploys, enemy models within 12" may only fire Snap Shots against them

-In the Assault phase of the controlling player's second Game Turn, all of the Assault Squads of the Assault Vanguard gain the Hit&Run special rule

 

Limitations:

-Compulsory Troops choice made for a detachment using this Rite of War must be Legion Assault Squads

-Only units that can deploy via Deep Strike or embarked upon a Transport vehicle with the Flyer type may be taken in the army

-May not include any immobile units

 

 

The Day of Revelation

Effects:

-Jump Infantry squads which are part of this detachment must arrive via Deep Strike on the first turn of the game and do not need to roll for Reserves

-All Deep Striking units in this detachment gain a 5+ cover save on the Game Turn they arrive in play. Place a marker by the unit or otherwise note this to be the case

-All ranged weapons carried by Infantry and Jump Infantry units which are a part of this detachment gain the Pinning special rule in the Shooting phase of any player turn in which they Deep Strike

-All units which are part of this detachment and have the Legiones Astartes (Blood Angels) special rule gain +1 Initiative on the turn they charge into an assault.

Characters with the Legiones Astartes (Blood Angels) special rule must always accept a Challenge if one is offered in combat. If multiple eligible characters are present in the combat the controlling player may choose which one answers the Challenge as normal.

 

Limitations:

-Compulsory HQ and Troops choices for this detachment must be made up of units equipped with jump packs

-Detachemtns using this Rite of War must take a compulsory Fast Attack choice as part of their force which must also have either hte Flyer or Deep Strike special rule

-Primary Detachments using this Rite of War may not take any Fortifications, Sentry Guns, or Lords of War other than Flyers or the Primarch Sanguinius

 

So....putting that all together....

 

-Can we put the Jump Contemptor in a Drop Pod to get in down T1 and then get some nasty movement T2?

 

-how crucial is the Day of Revelation buffs? +1I is nice, but Dawnbringers may be able to get +1I with dual swords, apparently? Secondly 5+ cover could be useful...Angel's Tears with Volkite exploding wounds that also have Pinning? Or assault cannons with Pinning? Or Dreads in pods with Pinning? hmmmm

 

-I prefer the buffs of Angel's Wrath (Hit & Run all the time), but I think with the # of Factions/units out there that can mess with your Reserves we absolutely need stuff that counteracts that and just gets stuff down ASAP. I lean towards the DoR over the Drop Assault Vanguard because DAV locks you into Assault squads while DoR gives you more options, including Dawnbringers as Troops if you take Big S himself.

 

-Does Sanguinius get the +1I from DoR? Does "Sire of the Blood Angels" = "Legion Astartes (Blood Angels)?"

 

-Hit & Run would be very useful for Sanguinius, and any unit that posseses a model with that rule gets it, right? Sangy's I7 could then provide some great synergy for that effect

 

-how useful are Destroyers in general? If they are mediocre to begin with, what's the point of a special/upgraded version?

 

-My mind is drooling over that beautiful Blood Angels Leviathan coming down T1 in a Dreadnought Drop Pod, providing reliable Pinning with a Storm Cannon Array (24" S7 AP3 Heavy 6, Sunder) and 8x S6 AP2 Rending shots from the Nipples-of-Doom with the DoR RoW, and then inflicting 2x S8 HoW attacks, and then 3x S10 AP2 attacks at I5 doing +D3 wounds on a 4+. Sounds juicy to me!

Edited February 8, 2019 by Indefragable

[Gorgoff]

"Can we put the Jump Contemptor in a Drop Pod to get in down T1 and then get some nasty movement T2? "

Depends on his transport options

 

"how crucial is the Day of Revelation buffs?"

Without full rules we don't know

 

"Does "Sire of the Blood Angels" = "Legion Astartes (Blood Angels)?"

No

 

"how useful are Destroyers in general?"

Dead weight at the moment.

 

"If they are mediocre to begin with"

The need a buff to become mediocre.

 

"what's the point of a special/upgraded version?"

They become playable?

Depends on the upgrade.

Rumour wise they are 115 points now. We'll see when we have the book/ the FAQ

 

"How many Detachments can you take in a single army if all models are from the same Legion?"

One.

And there are no factions.

 

"you do say both a White Scars Armored Spearhead + a White Scars Angel's Wrath in the same army?"

No.

[Spiritual Liege]

Though allied detachment can indeed take a a Rite of War if the rite limitations are met and you have a Master as your HQ.

[m0nolith]

 

 

If unit A makes unit B count as Troops, does that mean unit B fulfills the Compulsory Troops requirement?

 

Aka if Sangy makes Dawnbringers Troops, does that mean you have to take ASM in the DoR RoW?

DoR states that "Compulsory HQ and Troops choices for this detachment must be made up of units equipped with jump packs."

Meaning, yes you can take Dawnbringers as your compulsory units since they are Troops under Sanguinius, in addition to a Praetor/Delegatus/Warmonger.

 

 

 

 

 

-how useful are Destroyers in general? If they are mediocre to begin with, what's the point of a special/upgraded version?

 

They are fine ruleswise, terrible pointswise.

There's a utility to them most effectively employed against Custodes and high Toughness units, but they're still not worth it right now.

The main draw of Destroyers was the lore, as is much of the Heresy. They were the definition of the rule of cool. Having them be a decently priced unit for once is the reason why a lot of players were elated when they heard about the points drop.

Edited February 8, 2019 by m0nolith

[Gorgoff]

Though allied detachment can indeed take a a Rite of War if the rite limitations are met and you have a Master as your HQ.

And it is not allowed to ally an army with the own legion.

[Spiritual Liege]

Yes.

[Charlo]

Day of Revelation is going to be stupidly good come Malevolence full release. Like borderline Crimson King good I feel.

 

The restrictions are non-existant and the benefits are just pure gravy and only serve to boost whatever BA already does well (including the new juicy units).

 

The sheer amount of deep striking, pinning dakka and combat bonuses will be pretty gnarly. I love to play this type of list too (it was how I played 7th edition 40k BA) and can tell you it's savage.

 

I wonder if BA might get a reputation akin to 1KSons...

[Indefragable]

DoR is kind of a Goal Line play in American football: both sides know what’s coming but can either side do anything about it?

 

What I’m trying to wrap my head around is the best unit for Sanguinius to accompany in DoR: resiliency is needed above all else, IMO, b/c it’s going to get shot to :cuss w/ the Primarch hidden in there.

 

I think Dawnbringers (supposedly a glass cannon unit) will collapse under weight of fire and a command squad is only 5 guys w/ 2+/6++/5+++ FNP at best and that too will fold easily, me thinks.

 

Sangy dropping in with terminator clad Crimson Paladins seems weird, to me.

Edited February 10, 2019 by Indefragable

[Purge the Daemon]

The choice for the angel probably will have to be dawnbringers unless there is a good reason to use a command squad but I mean there really isnt besides combat shields.

 

Day of revelations isnt going to be half as good as guard and it's not because day is bad it's just guard is the dumbest row ever. 2 low cause Magnus hq memes 2w 2+ 3++ terminators as troops reroll invuls of 1 and really otherwise no restrictions it's built around broken units and gives them free stuff no one else Hope's to get. The angel isnt as good as Magnus and neither special unit is as good as sekhmet (crimson paladins dont even have actual storm shields they have fnp if outnumbered in close combat).

 

Now I think day is still fine and running some dawnbringers with sanguinis a pudding leviathan maybe even the new ba Dread should work well together if we can bring enough anti armour in.

[m0nolith]

So I have 40 marines with basic weapons which I think is too many, and I’m thinking about turning 10 of them into a Heavy Support Squad.

I’m thinking Volkite Culverins since Iv heard people do well with them, I don’t get to see them in my meta. Assault Cannon wielding HS squad would be awesome if it wasn’t for the shorter range, but then again...rending is awesome.

 

To be perfectly honest im not 100% on this so I’d like to hear other people’s thoughts.

Edited February 10, 2019 by m0nolith

[Charlo]

So I have 40 marines with basic weapons which I think is too many, and I’m thinking about turning 10 of them into a Heavy Support Squad.

I’m thinking Volkite Culverins since Iv heard people do well with them, I don’t get to see them in my meta. Assault Cannon wielding HS squad would be awesome if it wasn’t for the shorter range, but then again...rending is awesome.

 

To be perfectly honest im not 100% on this so I’d like to hear other people’s thoughts.

Well the rumours suggested you could give all of the Angels Tears Assault Cannons with Suspensor Webs, so do that :D Edited February 10, 2019 by Charlo

[m0nolith]

 

So I have 40 marines with basic weapons which I think is too many, and I’m thinking about turning 10 of them into a Heavy Support Squad.

I’m thinking Volkite Culverins since Iv heard people do well with them, I don’t get to see them in my meta. Assault Cannon wielding HS squad would be awesome if it wasn’t for the shorter range, but then again...rending is awesome.

To be perfectly honest im not 100% on this so I’d like to hear other people’s thoughts.

Well the rumours suggested you could give all of the Angels Tears Assault Cannons with Suspensor Webs, so do that :D

Nah, those guys I plan on hooking up with my dual inferno Moritat and...that...yeah...is a lot of AT.

Still, Volkites in a Heavy Support Squad, thoughts?

[Charlo]

If you have a heavy support slot free, go for it - they're brutal and can threaten most things in the game due to weight of fire and deflagrate.

 

However if you don't have the slots, Volkite Calivers in the troops slot is a nice alternative.

[Gorgoff]

IW player here.

I play a 5 men HSS with Volkite Culverine on a regular bases ans can say that they do great.

AA plus Augury Scanner on the sarge and you're good to go.

Ten men squads are to cumbersome and attract to much attention from the opponent.

 

Make 5 Seeker with Combi-plasmaguns from the other marines. Put 'em in a Termite or Dreadclaw and see bad things happen.

[Indefragable]

Special Weapons Squads: Tactical Support or Veterans?

 

On one hand I lean towards Tac Support since glass cannons are often the way to go in 30k/40k (anything you're opponent wants to die WILL die, so make something hit as hard as possible for as cheaply as possible).

 

On the other hand...Encarmine Fury + extra Attack/Ld of Veterans is sooooo juicy. Especially if you can go combi-weapon/power weapon. Seems like quite the elite IX Legion warrior ready to mess stuff up. .....but is it just too much of a toys over boys approach?