[HH1.0] Blood Angels Tactica - Assault Cannons For Days

[Rabidbunneh]

How viable would an all jump pack Day of Reckoning list be? I'm starting up a Blood Angel army, but I've spent 2 years playing Cybernetica so I'm totally out of touch as to how marine lists work.

[Charlo]

Do you mean day of Revelation?

 

If so, ridiculously strong!

[Rabidbunneh]

Do you mean day of Revelation?

 

If so, ridiculously strong!

That's the one.

[Gorgoff]

Do you mean day of Revelation?

 

If so, ridiculously strong!

Is that true?

Hm.

I've played against it several times and it always felt more or less like shooting fish in a barrel to be honest.

Could you give me an example for a good army based on that row and how to use it?

[Charlo]

If you run it you need to go all in IMO, but it's worth remembering that you also don't need to sacrifice heavier stuff too.

 

Also, now Sanguinius and the new jump units are on their way it's only going to get better.

 

Basically though you'd go for something like:

 

Preator

Consul

Command Rhino

2 Blobs of kitted Assault Marines (shields and power weapons)

Destroyers

Leviathan in a pod

Deathstorm pod

Unit of choice in Dreadclaw

Land Speeders with Grav

 

The idea is to land and crush a flank with numbers while your back line cleans up. Its very alpha strike but strong. You need to ensure you reach combat though or most of the bonuses are gone.

 

I suspect once the next book is out you'll see the above but Sanguinius leading, with the new elite assault marines as troops and the special Destroyers in large numbers as they have quite s few big guns.

[Charlo]

Full Sanguinius rules on WHC today:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/11/mar-11-the-angel-rises-sanguinius-in-the-horus-heresyfw-homepage-post-1/

[Indefragable]

Copying some of my thoughts from the BA forum here:

 

Glad the memory of this "random guy on B&C" that 1d4chan had quoted was not wrong

 

Anyways, couple things I noticed since I got a glimpse at the Weekender:

-he gains +1I and +1A in the first turn of combat, not just if he charges. Even better with more utility, especially if people try to charge you the turn you DS.

-6's To Wound w/ Spear do double wounds

 

So....you can hop over a unit and do S6 AP2 Ignores Cover hit, then re-roll Charge in for S10 AP2 auto-hit, then do a minimum of 7A attacks at any of the following stat lines below, hitting anything in the game not-named-Russ-or-Angron on 3's, all while getting a 83% chance of deflecting anything AP3 or worse and a 75% chance of deflecting anything AP2 or better.

 

Hidden Content

Spear of Telesto

S: +3/User AP1/2 Melee, Two-handed, Instant Death, Master-crafted, Wrath of Angels (6's To Wound do 2x wounds). On the Charge/not charging

 

Moonsilver blade

S: User AP3 Melee, Master-Crafted, Blind, Duellist's Edge (+1I in Challenge), Moonsilver (wounds against daemons/psykers counts as 2x wounds)

 

Blade Encarmine:

S+1 AP2 Melee, Rampage (+D3 attacks if outnumbered), Shred (re-roll failed To Wound).

 

Honestly, the Spear is going to be what you see the most of because of the insane power it gives; S9 AP1 Instant Death and 2 wounds on 6's will nuke almost anything, and even other Primarchs/Eternal Warriors will be sorely hurting.

 

That being said, I'm actually kind of thinking I might go Encarmine Blade as the go-to since it's such a utility weapon and he can break off and solo anything other than Sigismund or another Primarch/Greater Daemon with it.

 

I think the Moonsilver blade is actually hilariously effective against Angron, since Mr Angry only has a 3+ save and could be hit with Blind LOL.

[Gorgoff]

Whooping 11A on the charge with S7 an Shred is crazy good but I'd always go for ID and Mastercrafted.

[Indefragable]

I think the Encarmine Blade should be Master-Crafted and have Duellist’s Edge; that would actually present a legit choice between the spear and sword.

[m0nolith]

I think the Encarmine Blade should be Master-Crafted and have Duellist’s Edge; that would actually present a legit choice between the spear and sword.

This is true, although I'm still going to magnetize the hand and weapons just in case I come across a horde army, not to mention that we don't know what the case will be in AoD 2nd ed.

[Indefragable]

Let's talk Challenges:

 

The basic idea is that you generally want to strike as hard and fast as you can while preventing the other guy from doing the same. Duh.

 

So, in essence, there's 3 main builds:

 

A. The Puncher: a character built for speed and punch, looking to do as much damage as possible while striking as fast as possible. Hence the Praetor with Paragon Blade build since you're going at I5 (or better) with AP2 and potentially Instant Death. There are not really many "vanilla" builds outside of that since it's so tried-and-true. Some Legions (EC, IF, BA) can get higher Initiatives which makes this build even better, but the question in all cases is whether or not it beats out option B

 

B. The Rocky: aka he's not that good, but he can hang on for 13+ rounds. This guy is built for defense, hoping to survive A's onslaught long enough to swing back with a TH, and thus mitigate most of A's advantages... you could also knock him down to I1 for the next turn, thus negating any advantage in Initiative.Outside of a TH, you want to dump everything into this guy's defense whenever possible. Again, a Praetor with Iron Halo (4++) is the old standby, but Forgelord's with Refractor and Cyber-familiar (4++ total) also work. A Champion in theory works well since his WS6 could make the other guy land fewer blows. Any other builds? Some Legions (IF, Sal, IH, DG) can excel at this build with the right equipment (3++ shields, Cyber-familiars + Iron Halos, Eternal Warrior relics, etc...)

 

C. The Sacrificial Lamb: send in a throwaway schlub that closes his eyes and hopes not to die....b/c if he doesn't, he can swing back with a hammer or power fist and potentially squish the opponent. Really a variation of B above, but you're more of defending your points cost then the model in play. This is where the classic Tactical Sgt w/ Power Fist becomes so ubiquitously good.

 

D. Sanguinius: move along.

 

In the context of IX Legion, we have some options which is always a good place to be. In general, we want to lean towards A to make the best use of our cool weapons (Blade of Perdition, Photon Blade, Paragon Blade) and even the +1I in Day of Revelation.

 

Are our advantages enough to always go "all in" on a Puncher? What situations would we lean towards a Rocky?

Edited March 12, 2019 by Indefragable

[Slips]

Consider the Forge Lord in Cataphractii with a Cyber-Familiar (3++) for the purposes of the "rocky" build.

[Indefragable]

Consider the Forge Lord in Cataphractii with a Cyber-Familiar (3++) for the purposes of the "rocky" build.

 

Great shoutout!

 

Is a "perfect" scenario for us where you have both a Rocky to accept/eat challenges and then a Puncher to sweep up the rest of the unit as well?

[Slips]

Well, the BA have the advantage in that they can mix the Rocky with the Puncher build thanks to the Blade of Perdition (as do other legions with at-initiative AP2 weapons).

 

So you can make use of both i5+ and a 3++

 

The Forge Lord also has the added benefit of being able to take Rad Grenades too.

[Charlo]

Well, the BA have the advantage in that they can mix the Rocky with the Puncher build thanks to the Blade of Perdition (as do other legions with at-initiative AP2 weapons).

 

So you can make use of both i5+ and a 3++

 

The Forge Lord also has the added benefit of being able to take Rad Grenades too.

 

Which is even better as it means you wound easier with the S4 Blade of Perdition. Those double wounds add up quick.

[m0nolith]

Alright, the rules are out now!

What are everyone’s thoughts on our special units and characters?

[Gorgoff]

Alright, the rules are out now!

What are everyone’s thoughts on our special units and characters?

Dawnbreakers have no frag grenades. :D

[Purge the Daemon]

Angel's tears look pretty fantastic and a jump pack assault cannon squad is super sick and like 30ppm to boot for that is good.

 

Crimson paladins suck so bad what's with the base cost for 3? Shields are a funky way to try keep their fnp I guess but you actually dont get that vs most things. Blade of perdition is cool on sarge though he loses his shield for it.

 

Dawnbringers hello Palatine blades dandy reskin with a blade option to pretend to be ec to boot. Also no grenades golly gee.

 

Dreadnought is pretty cool very good vs daemons and mechanicum.

[Rabidbunneh]

Are the assault cannons worth it, wouldn't the suspensor drop them to 12" range? I know it's a lot of dakka, but for a unit of 10 with assault cannons, sergeant with artificer armour and power fist that's 325 points and you'd need to be danger close to get every marine to fire.

 

Edit: even if it's not, I've already started sourcing bits to convert them :D

Edited March 20, 2019 by Rabidbunneh

[Charlo]

Are the assault cannons worth it, wouldn't the suspensor drop them to 12" range? I know it's a lot of dakka, but for a unit of 10 with assault cannons, sergeant with artificer armour and power fist that's 325 points and you'd need to be danger close to get every marine to fire.

 

Edit: even if it's not, I've already started sourcing bits to convert them

 

40 Rending shots? Pretty gnarly.

 

Just remember to roll them separately for the jam rule!

 

Though I actually think the Dual Serpentas will be a competitive choice too, shame they only have 1A base.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

Are the assault cannons worth it, wouldn't the suspensor drop them to 12" range? I know it's a lot of dakka, but for a unit of 10 with assault cannons, sergeant with artificer armour and power fist that's 325 points and you'd need to be danger close to get every marine to fire.

 

Edit: even if it's not, I've already started sourcing bits to convert them

40 Rending shots? Pretty gnarly.

 

Just remember to roll them separately for the jam rule!

 

Though I actually think the Dual Serpentas will be a competitive choice too, shame they only have 1A base.

Just buy ten times four dice in different colours and styles and you are good to throw them together.

[Cadmus Tyro]

So,

 

Looking at the Angel’s tears, I’m not sure I would go full assault cannon. As the rule are written the Arch Erelim doesn’t have access to them anyway, only the Erelim do.

 

Another thing to note is the fact all squad members have Ld9. Which means tanking wounds with an artificer armour equipped Arch Erelim has zero downsides.

 

My thoughts would be -

X10 man squad, x6 assault cannons, artificer on the Arch Erelim. 305pts total - perhaps add melta bombs. I mean that’s the equivalent of two dual kheres dreadnoughts in Damage output. You have a few cheap guys to take hits on so you can take wounds without a significant drop in damage output.

 

I think (correct me if I’m wrong here) the use of suspensor webs are optional. So if you are stationary you can still fire at full range.

 

I’m planning on using these guys in a coils list, infiltrate into position and let rip, with the ability to reposition if needed.

 

Cadmus

[Indefragable]

My evolving thoughts so far (from my post in the BA forum):

 

Dawnbringers:

• LOLFAIL at that them not having Assault Grenades, so they attack last in terrain. That's gotta be FAQ'd, otherwise it's the ultimate troll. I'm guessing they meant to have a similar ability to the Primaris Intercessor underslung grenade launcher that lets them using existing grenades at extended range
• I'm  theoryhammering the best TAC loadout for them, likely a mix of the +1S/AP2 on charge spears + swords (will definitely depend on points cost for each as well).
• First (re)impressions is more of a question: they are clearly meant to be a bit of a glass cannon with no invuln, but will they hit hard enough to make up for their lacking defense?
• Should I wait to see if official models ever come out or just kitbash now?
• Compare to:

Hidden Content

III Legion

Palantine Blades

WS5 1W A2 3+

• Elites
• BP + Charnabal Sabres (S- AP- Melee, Rending, +1I in challenge)
• Can take Phoenix Spears: S+1/User AP2/3 Melee, Two-handed)
• Counter-Attack
• Chosen Warriors (can challenge like characters)

VIII Legion

Night Raptor Squad

WS5 W1 A1 3+

• Fast Attack
• Jump Infantry
• Chainsword + BP base
• Onslaught: +D3 attacks on the charge instead of +1

 

XIII Legion

Invictarus Suzerain

WS5 W1 A2 2+

• Elites
• Boarding shield: 6++/5++ in combat
• Legatine Axe: S- AP2 Melee, Specialist Weapon, Cutting Strike (To Hit 6's auto-wound)
• Lords of Ultramar: other UM or Allied Solar Aux/Militia in 12" +1Ld if not Falling Back, etc..
• Chosen Warriors (can challenge like characters)
• Honor Bearers: one model can exchange a boarding shield for a Legion Standard from Command Squad

 

 

Locutarus Storm Squad

WS4 W1 A1 2+

• Fast Attack
• Power Sword + bolt pistol
• Opening Salvo: on turn they arrive from DS, may fire bolt pistols twice
• Precision Intervention: when arriving from DS, may re-roll the Scatter dice, but must accept the re-rolled result

 

XVII Legion

Ashen Circle

(don't have FAQ'd version in front of me)

 

XIX Legion

Dark Fury Assault Squad

WS4 W1 A2 3+

Pair of Raven's Talons: lightning claws with Master-Crafted and Rending

Sudden Strike: +1I on the charge

Fateful Descent: 5+ cover save when they arrive via DS

 

Angel's Tears:

• 10 dudes dropping in with Suspensor Web Assault Cannons with Pinning (from DoR)....expensive as all heck, but you get what you pay for. When you absolutely, positively NEED that drop zone cleared
• Let me get this right...you add Justicar Whathisface (aka the non-Raldoron character) and they get Shred and Rending to hand flamers....can they all take hand flamers? 20x Templates w/ S3 Shred + Rending? ....does that make hand flamers good? S3 and Shred is actually better for Rending since you want to fish for 6's 
• Same question with Dawnbringers: should I wait to see if official models ever come out or just kitbash now?

 

Crimson Paladins:

• Have potential...but don't know if they pack enough Anvil to compliment the Hammer of the rest of a fast moving BA force
• First (re) impressions: if they were -1S and FNP at all times, then they're basically killier Iron Hand Gorgons....is that good?

 

Sanguinary Guard:

• <grumble grumble grumble grumble grumble grumble grumble>

 

Jump Dread:

• I agree this is a bit ridiculous, but I lean towards ridiculously-awesome-as-only-40k can do. Maybe convert the BA Contemptor if the mood strikes.
• I theorize that it could be best to put in a Dreadnought Drop Pod and use the jump pack for that sweet sweet 3D6 Charge. Sitting in that pod will draw fire away from other T1 arrival targets <cough> Leviathan <cough>
• Can it take a Chainfist as well? Blade of Perdition for meat + Chainfist for steel = niiiiiice

 

Justicar dude:

• See Angels Tears' comments above

 

Raldoron:

• I wholeheartedly agree with @Blindhamster...he's not bad, but feels like he lacks a little oomph. If he could pick any WLT and he buffed the army with +Ld or some sort of Reserves/DS mitigation I think he would be solidly on-point without being too much
• Would LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE a Jump Pack option for him. Pretty pretty please?

 

Sanguinius:

• I keep going back and forth between "OMG awesome" and "OMG terrible" which means I just need to play the out of him and find out one way or another
• I have all sorts of tweaks I can think of for him, but in short, the most immediate would be give Encarmine Blade Master-Crafted and Duelist's Edge to help make it a more viable option vs the Spear
• Moonsilver Blade gets Rending and Sanguinius gets his own Encarmine Fury (see below)

 

I'm still quite concerned that there's really no jump unit that can help Sanguinius survive Deep Strike other than a 20man blob of ASM. Sanguinary Guard <grumble grumble grumble grumble grumble>

 

I also think that if Encarmine Fury also affected Rending and Murderous Strike in melee, then a lot of our unit options would really stand out. Aka Rend on 5+ and Instant Death on a 5+ for some weapon options. That's likely too much, though.

[Charlo]

Dawnbringers will more than likely always have an IC with frags in tow, so it's not really an issue imo. They're deffo a glass hammer but theyve got a big hammer, especially in DoR.

 

Angel's Tears are money. 'Nuff said. 1A base is a little crappy, but you bring these guys for ranged I suppose. I actually think Twin Serpentas could be solid to keep them cheap.

 

Raldoron is strong. Very strong. A jump pack has never been his style though.

 

SG I'm glad they didn't include. Just make a command squad.

[Reyner]

Did they make any changes to the Blood Angels Rites of War? I want a Blood Angel army but don't want to use all jump pack units (other than Destroyers and stuff) for a Siege of Terra era force. I have a load of MK4 and MK3 marines from BoP and BaC as well as a handful of Tartaros and Cataphractii Terminators. If the other Rite has been tweaked it might be good to have a go at that rather than Pride of the Legion or something.