[HH1.0] Black Shields Tactica

[leth]

I see, i thought the deep strike shooting item would be more prevalent. 

 

I dont think deepstriking would be too difficult, there are enough of the safe deep strike items.

 

Is deep strike really tha much better than going +1 Str/Toughness. 

[Gorgoff]

No.

Yes.

Depends. ;)

[Terminus]

Deep strike and rad grenades.

[The Traitor]

Hi there!

With the approach of the Burning of Prospero box I'm thinking of starting a blackshield force and wanted your advice on how to do it. I'm between three Wrought by War Options, either Chymerae, Outlanders or the +1 bs/ws -2 ld. Chymerae seems very appealing because T5 (or 6 on bikes!) and S5 is also sweet, getting to 10 with power fists could be awesome, but the -1I seems like a huge disadvantage for regular cc units, what makes me think of a mainly short range shooting focused army with cc support from units with already unwidely weapons (terminators with power fists), also the -1 to charge distances and run moves bugs me because I usually prefer fast armies, but it's passable. Outlanders seems fun, DS means less transports and I really don't like transports so that's great, and rad grenades are also good, but I don't see it as good as chymerae game-wise and DS seems to me quite unreliable. Finally the +1 ws/bs -2 ld option (can't remember the name) sounds appealing because the BS5, meaning that I would hit on a 2+ with all my army, which would be awesome, but I'm not realy convinced because the -2 ld could be troublesome and I would probably prefer a more assaulty take for this army project.

So, as you can see, I'm really undecided, though I may be leaning a bit more towards chymerae. I play agaist 40k and 30k both and will start the army with the BoP box without the sisters or custodes (so basically 30 marines, 5 tartaros and 2 characters), but plan on expanding soon after, depending on what WbW choice I take. Any advice will be apprecietad, I'm eager towards starting this new project!

[Nusquam]

Im a fan of Outlanders personally. Its easy to put voxii on the non deepstriking half of your army. Its also easier to start with requiring fewer models since you won't need as many vehicles.

 

Another thing is that your WbW isn't hard locked to your paint scheme. So you can switch it up.

[leth]

Luckily we don't have to model it so I can do both!! I will have 60 marines but I am having a hard time with equipment.

 

On one hand I want to give them two handed guns, however 2 points per model adds up

[Caillum]

Marauders are easy - Astartes shotguns and chainaxes should be their default loadout. Pariah flamers are the Bee's Knees for special weapons, but if you want them as a backfield unit, by all means give them a heavy weapon or 3 (but they're not designed for that).

 

It's hard to go past Outlanders. Rad grenades are a really nice buff for Marauders, as they'll wound on 2's. They can also take voxii, like Nusquam said, so they help your Deep Striking component. Trying to figure out what units to use to represent the Void Reavers aspect. Their mishap piece means cheaper models will be less risky, so I'm leaning towards combi-weapon Seekers over combi-weapon Terminators.

 

Thoughts?

[Nusquam]

I see them as a 'sum of the parts' army. Not only do you need unit count to give out deepstrike, but you need it to avoid the leadership test or die mechanic as well once you lose half your army. I would do combi-weapon vets. Seekers are more potent but you can get more vets on the board in their place.

[The Traitor]

Thanks for your replies! Yes, I suppose I can change their WbW rule from battle to battle, but I actually wanted to have a core one to build my army around it. I think I'll get some Castellax to go with a praevian for T8 goodness and dreadclaws as transports for chainaxe marauders, but I'm also thinking about some jetbikes because T6 could mess a lot with my friends IF and their massed bolter fire. What do you think about a hammer praetor in jetbike with a unit of 5 and a power fist for the sergeant? And what about wargear for the Castellax? The power blades could be fun to model, but I'm not sure if they're quite effective compared with the other options. Edited October 20, 2016 by The Traitor

[Terminus]

Marauders are easy - Astartes shotguns and chainaxes should be their default loadout. Pariah flamers are the Bee's Knees for special weapons, but if you want them as a backfield unit, by all means give them a heavy weapon or 3 (but they're not designed for that).

 

It's hard to go past Outlanders. Rad grenades are a really nice buff for Marauders, as they'll wound on 2's. They can also take voxii, like Nusquam said, so they help your Deep Striking component. Trying to figure out what units to use to represent the Void Reavers aspect. Their mishap piece means cheaper models will be less risky, so I'm leaning towards combi-weapon Seekers over combi-weapon Terminators.

 

Thoughts?

Are combi-seekers really that much cheaper than combi-terminators?

 

5 Seekers with combi-weapons - 205 points

5 Terminators with combi-weapons - 210 points

 

Just sayin...

 

And having seen Chymeriae in action, I must say I am not impressed. Someone in this thread said they make Inductii quake in their boots, but that's utter nonsense. Inductii stomp the crap out of Chymeriae.

 

Inductii are more likely to get a successful charge (Chymeriae have -1" to charge which is very significant), they will hit first (Chymeriae have -1 to Initiative), they will hit more accurately (Inductii have hatred from their Rite), they will hit more often (2 base + rage + inductii overboost = 5 attacks on charge vs. 4 for Chymeriae), they will wound more reliably (both are S6, Inductii re-roll 1s to wound on charges), and are actually able to follow-up on a victory (they can sweep). Oh, and you get 10 of them for 125 points rather than 5.

 

So if you are looking for a good assault army, Chymeriae are actually crap. Their only saving grace is T5, which effectively amounts to FNP saves vs. powerfists and battlecannons, whoopteedoo.  So you could run them as a slightly more resistant gunline on foot, I guess, but Iron Hands do that better. So pick your poison.  Do you want to be crappy Iron Hands?  Or really crappy World Eaters?  While I balked at it at first, trying to break this Wrought by War by spamming T8 Castellax is probably the only really worthwhile approach.  So bike praetor with command squad for T6, two Praevians with Castellax for your elites, and a couple of whatever for your compulsory troops.

 

Anyway, I have to apologize to the folks awaiting my Outlanders, because I got signed up for a team narrative event in December and it's going to be all about Mechanicum.

 

Assembled by not sleeping last two nights!: 2 Krios Venators, 2 Solar Auxilia Medusas, 1 Triaros Conveyer, 3 Secutors, 5 Myrmidons, 4 Thallax. Remainder left: 1 Triaros, 4 Myrmidons, and 5 Thallax. Phew!

Edited October 20, 2016 by Terminus

[The Traitor]

You can't get either a praetor or a command squad with blackshields, so reaver lord and normal jetbikes are the most similar options. Also, as far as I know, praevians are hq and you can only take one again due to blackshields limitation. Regarding the inductii part, yes, you can't compare marauders to inductii, but they're still decent in combat, score, shoot better, resist more punishment, can take special weapons and can go with other characters apart from apothecaries so, even though they're not the murder machine that inductii are in cc, they're much more versatile. Oh, and they can take dreadclaws.

I have to clarify that all of this is coming from someone who has just playtested them once, so I may be very wrong on everything I said ;-P

Edited October 20, 2016 by The Traitor

[Terminus]

Hey, you have one up on me then, I only saw them played once!

 

"Praetor" == Reaver Lord or whatever the specific name is. Good call on the command squad, so I would say go for scimitar jetbikes maybe? Outriders are also very good due to scout.

 

I do like Marauders (chainaxes are king), I am just debating which buffs are truly best for them. S5/T5 is again, great, because it lets you take FNP saves against S8+ weapons (in an ideal situation where they are in combat, this will be power fists). But it comes with all these drawbacks to other things that would make effective melee units. Arguably the rad grenades of outlanders is a better buff than +1S, but the leadership checks for shadow of oblivion can be friggin' brutal and often means if the game turns against you chances are slim you'll turn the tables unless your dice are merciful!

 

I would like to see someone experiment with Chymeriae assault squads. T5, combat shields and FNP is pretty sweet, and the jump packs can counter-act some of the negatives (still can't sweep but oh well).

 

edit: on the point of dreadclaws, everyone can get them as fast attack choices, and in the case of Outlanders they should take them as FA even though they are available as a dedicated transport option.  By not taking them as dedicated you can count that unit towards the total free deep strikes you get.

Edited October 20, 2016 by Terminus

[Charlo]

Outlanders get terribly silly but fluffy Xenos death guns so, ya know. Instant love right there.

 

Chimerae are cool, but I think they are a trap like Terminus says. They don't have the rules to back up those stats.

 

Outlander Marauders can dish it out on 2+ to most things with RAD and Chains axes.

 

Honeslty one of the only things really making me dislike blsck Shields is the single consul limit :P

 

Now we're getting plastic mk 3 I might just repurpose my death guard into dual purpose blsck Shields.

[autek mor]

terminus just crushed my chymeriae dream. seriously though i respect the advice.

[Plaguecaster]

I'm too stubborn to listen to good advice :D even if it is from an expert so my dream still stands, besides converting a Chymeriae army is so much more fun not that I'm actually required to model it as such :D Ive got some assault Chymeriae planned for my black shield Warband project so they should prove interesting game wise once I convert some Edited October 21, 2016 by teutonicavenger

[The Traitor]

Well, I'll have to test outlanders then. Whats the general consensus on xenos deathlock? Take none, one, two or as may as you can knowing that people will die?

[Caillum]

Are combi-seekers really that much cheaper than combi-terminators?

 

5 Seekers with combi-weapons - 205 points

5 Terminators with combi-weapons - 210 points

 

Just sayin...

That is a good point. Terminators have a 2+/5++ and a power weapon for those 5 points. Not as deadly with those combi-weapons, but will excel at everything else.

[Terminus]

Four games with Outlanders and watching one with Chymeriae doesn't make me an expert! I hope everyone experiments for themselves! The real trap is treating prevailing internet "wisdom" as gospel!

[Plaguecaster]

Probably a dumb question but are all dreadnoughts affected by the wrought by war rules just with me plannin on running Chymeriae with most of my stuff at -1 to charging and I as well as no sweeping I was probably planning on using dreads to counter it. Also if I take talons of dreads will they only count as one vehicle as per limited resources??? My army is going to be solely Chymeriae ( even though it doesn't have to be) though when I can get games in I'll probably change up between the 3 different Chymeriae options as they all sound interesting Edited October 22, 2016 by teutonicavenger

[Slips]

If it has the Legiones Astartes Rule, yes. If it doesn't, no.

 

So in the case of Dreadnoughts, no, unless specifically mentioned.

 

For Talons, its wonky due to how Talons work but I'd say they count as a single unit in the same way a vehicle squadron does.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Slipstreams

[leth]

For the person who said it is a weaker than iron hands it is different. The +1 toughness applies to Assault, and still ignores ID for any str 9 shooting. The -1 init is partially cancelled out by the increased survivability. Most things that strike at initiative will be affected by the str change resulting in fewer wounds taken while also dishing out more wounds.  As anyone who runs thunderwolves will tell you having that native str 10 with thunderhammers is huge for killing some of the bigger nasties out there/instant death on most units in the game. In addition, when combined with rad grenades and chain axes you are instant deathing with your normal attacks. 

 

However, that -1 charge/run is a huge deal breaker for an assault army. Each turn it is adding an inch to the required charge. Over the course of three turns you are three inches farther from your target than you would have been otherwise.  They basically need assault transports to be able to charge on turn three which is rough.

 

Taking all of this into account I think Chymerae need to be a combination shooting and assault army.  Basically strongly invest in shooting and have chain axes to hold you over.  I think the improved durability is pretty powerful and I was looking at the veteran squads, give them the sniper rule and outfit them with pariah flamers.

 

Now they wound on a 4+ and have 6 is ap 2.

[Plaguecaster]

For the person who said it is a weaker than iron hands it is different. The +1 toughness applies to Assault, and still ignores ID for any str 9 shooting. The -1 init is partially cancelled out by the increased survivability. Most things that strike at initiative will be affected by the str change resulting in fewer wounds taken while also dishing out more wounds. As anyone who runs thunderwolves will tell you having that native str 10 with thunderhammers is huge for killing some of the bigger nasties out there/instant death on most units in the game. In addition, when combined with rad grenades and chain axes you are instant deathing with your normal attacks.

 

However, that -1 charge/run is a huge deal breaker for an assault army. Each turn it is adding an inch to the required charge. Over the course of three turns you are three inches farther from your target than you would have been otherwise. They basically need assault transports to be able to charge on turn three which is rough.

 

Taking all of this into account I think Chymerae need to be a combination shooting and assault army. Basically strongly invest in shooting and have chain axes to hold you over. I think the improved durability is pretty powerful and I was looking at the veteran squads, give them the sniper rule and outfit them with pariah flamers.

 

Now they wound on a 4+ and have 6 is ap 2.

Hmmm an interesting thought I am trying but a bit hard when focusing on an only infantry force with the only vehicles being dreads through personal preference. Any ideas on how to achieve this I was maybe thinking assault troops as troops to give some mobility, maybe large maurader squad with some heavy weapons (autocannons) fir long range fire, some dreads with las and a missile launcher heavy squad (still coming up with list may post it later)

[Flint13]

The more I think about that not being able to sweep deal though, the more I see it as less of a problem.

 

Sadly, it's no longer 4th edition where you can overrun into a new unit, so regardless of whether or not you have swept your opponent, your assault squad is left hanging in the breeze for a turn if you don't end the combat in your opponents phase.

 

I play with Augmented Inductii all the time, and I can tell you two things definitively; Str6 with Chainaxes is baller and I really wish that they had T5 to absorb all the shooting they catch after breaking or wiping an enemy in HtH.

[Terminus]

Fair enough but all these small issues that are individually dismissible are all in one place. I'm sure you wouldn't enjoy your Inductii failing their charge or taking casualties before swinging even more than not having T5.

[leth]

I think part of the problem is that we are talking about this in a purely get into assault context.  Assault is a tool, not the objective.  The objective is to win the game. If we wanted an assault chymerae army we would go with jump packs.  They are much better at actually getting there. Instead of throwing hundreds of points to make hundreds of points work.  Play to the army strengths: A variety of good wargear and an extremely customizable default unit with a native above average assault capability. 

 

The key will be to find unit combinations that are hidden within the books and not instantly obvious.  They will have two-three moving parts(like the sniper pariah flamers). 

 

I am new to the heresy/have not played a gane yet so I don't have the baseline knowledge to do a lot of these things.

 

From what little I understand in general for marines you need to mitigate the: leadership (primarily in assault), the high volumes of fire, the dedicated assault army, board mobility, armor 14/15 vehicles and holding objectives while keeping your opponent off of them(6th edition scoring). Does that sound about right?

 

Is there anything else you need to take care of that I am not aware of? Once I get a comprehensive list I can start brainstorming solutions. 

 

One of the nice things is that because there are basically no super durable skimmers/fast skimmers in the heresy most vehicles that you need to kill are very slow or stationary, ideal for assault.