b1soul Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 ...setting up yet another fight between the Lion and Curze? This is kinda getting old...we've already had 1. Lion vs. Curze brawl - Lion gets choked 2. Lion vs. Curze - Curze's throat gets slashed 3. Lion vs. Curze - cat and mouse on Lion's ship 4. Lion and Bobby vs. Curze - bombs detonated by Curze 5. Sanguinius vs. Curze - throneroom encounter and brief duel I feel that Curze is ... for lack of a better word ... being over-used. Not to mention that Curze has also fought mad Vulkan ... so I guess AoC is gonna be more Lion vs. Curze (except Gav is much worse than Abnett or ADB) and neither primarch is going to die. One of them might get badly wounded or something... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Well, the thing is Curze is lurking around Ultramar and Sanguinius want Lion to perform his duty and bring Curze to him... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4313804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliesin Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Seems like this will be a very big book for the Dark Angels, with two or three storylines being picked up on. I certainly don''t mind the idea of another fight between these two, hopefully longer this timem and possibly more decisive. Could it not be that this book will show us some of the final part of story to be told for both Night Lords and Dark Angels in the HH series? Neither of the legions is there for the Siege of Terra as I recall, so this could well be not just a grand scale clash but also somewhat conclusive in their HH storyline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4313925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Well Cuze is a mighty character so it is fitting that he fights his brothers though I agree that he is being somehow forced into many fights as "filler". Now many of those fights were interesting and I really liked seeing my primarch battling his pen pushing brother in Unremembered Empire. In all honesty I hope that this book would do something more for the Dark Angels. Maybe it is just me but I did not like how badly is the legion handled by Gav. He is not exactly the person I would like to see writing about one of the coolest legions in lore (and my favorite legion, the Night Lords, to boot). But this is strictly a personal opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4313968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
R_F_D Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Seems like this will be a very big book for the Dark Angels, with two or three storylines being picked up on. I certainly don''t mind the idea of another fight between these two, hopefully longer this timem and possibly more decisive. Could it not be that this book will show us some of the final part of story to be told for both Night Lords and Dark Angels in the HH series? Neither of the legions is there for the Siege of Terra as I recall, so this could well be not just a grand scale clash but also somewhat conclusive in their HH storyline. Reckon it will have space for the origins of the Russ vs the Lion feud at Dulan? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4314120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Yes, it will be about the Lion's hunt for Curze through Ultramar. This is set up in the Pharos prequel audio drama The Dark Between the Stars, too, where the Lion prepares for it. He is determined to put the Night Haunter down once and for all and neglects everything else in the process. It does not even appear that Sanguinius necessarily approves of the Lion going off to do this all either. On top of that, it is also supposed to tackle the situation back on Caliban, with Astelan making his moves already shown in Master of the First, for example. I don't really get the "Gav writes HH Dark Angels badly" point. He has only written The Lion, and the Astelan-related Call of the Lion in Tales of Heresy, By the Lion's Command which was decent and ties from The Lion to Angels of Caliban, and a few audios. The bulk of Dark Angels material comes from other authors, and they laid out the route to begin with. I for one am really glad that this one went to Gav in total instead of being Angels of Caliban by Gav and Dreadwing by Abnett. Dan's Lion in The Unremembered Empire was very poor, even out of character in places. Nevermind that the whole book is among my least favorite books in the series due to all the worst parts about Abnett's writing these days coming together in one massive clash of themes and abrupt endings. Gav at least has a larger vision for the Legion and Chapter that he has been working with for the past decade and more, whereas Abnett tends to come into others' work and impresses his own twists on established factions and characters which does not necessarily mesh well at all with what came before. As for the Lion vs Russ, I believe Chris Wraight was mentioned to be doing something related to that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4314155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Don't forget all his Dark Angel stuff from 40k. I think many people (myself included) were a little disappointed in that AD-B attempted successfully to rehabilitate and give depth to the Dark Angels in Savage Weapons only to see Thorpe go in a direction that was different enough to be disappointing to many. And Yes. Curze fights. It feels like WWE. All scripted... Enough is enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4314510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 Well Cuze is a mighty character All primarchs are mighty characters...with the possible exception of Lorgar in his "weak pathetic" self-doubting phase Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4314520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Don't forget all his Dark Angel stuff from 40k. I think many people (myself included) were a little disappointed in that AD-B attempted successfully to rehabilitate and give depth to the Dark Angels in Savage Weapons only to see Thorpe go in a direction that was different enough to be disappointing to many. And Yes. Curze fights. It feels like WWE. All scripted... Enough is enough. Yeah, but Dark Angels from 40k is not Legion fluff, but Chapter fluff. And Gav's arguably the one writer who set the Dark Angels up for greatness in the first place. And his Legacy of Caliban trilogy was pretty solid and tied that arc up, and into the HH. Don't get me wrong, I hated how the Lion dispatched Nemiel in The Lion from The Primarchs, but that's about it. I was more disappointed with Abnett cutting into it - even Nick Kyme wrote a better Lion El'Jonson in Deathfire than Dan did in TUE. The Curze fights are just an extension of the feud that started during the Thramas Crusade. They hate one another, and we all know that the Lion especially cannot let go a grudge. He won't rest til he hunts Curze down, especially after he escaped from his flagship and laid waste to Macragge. What's he supposed to do? Turn around and sit it out on Guilliman's council? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4314636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliesin Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Don't forget all his Dark Angel stuff from 40k. I think many people (myself included) were a little disappointed in that AD-B attempted successfully to rehabilitate and give depth to the Dark Angels in Savage Weapons only to see Thorpe go in a direction that was different enough to be disappointing to many. And Yes. Curze fights. It feels like WWE. All scripted... Enough is enough. Yeah, but Dark Angels from 40k is not Legion fluff, but Chapter fluff. And Gav's arguably the one writer who set the Dark Angels up for greatness in the first place. And his Legacy of Caliban trilogy was pretty solid and tied that arc up, and into the HH. Don't get me wrong, I hated how the Lion dispatched Nemiel in The Lion from The Primarchs, but that's about it. I was more disappointed with Abnett cutting into it - even Nick Kyme wrote a better Lion El'Jonson in Deathfire than Dan did in TUE. The Curze fights are just an extension of the feud that started during the Thramas Crusade. They hate one another, and we all know that the Lion especially cannot let go a grudge. He won't rest til he hunts Curze down, especially after he escaped from his flagship and laid waste to Macragge. What's he supposed to do? Turn around and sit it out on Guilliman's council? I agree. I don't get the complaints. They have unfinished business. The only thing about the complaint I understand is that Kurze as a whole is somewhat overused as an opponent but it seems like this has a lot to do with him being the main enemy present in this area of the story. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4314790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
veterannoob Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Too bad internet going out yesterday ruined the podcast posting but Gav Thorpe came on Combat Phase and I interviewed him about Dark Angels 30-40K, covering the Legacy of Caliban trilogy and connecting some dots between 30K & 40K. We do discuss Angels of Caliban in the second half of the interview simply because I can't fathom doing DA40K and not having a go at 30K. I know many people don't like Gav's works but have a listen if you care to and maybe he'll touch on some points you are curious about. I'll post the link in this thread when it goes up. Really excited about AoC:) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4314807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 DarkChaplain, you make some interesting points. But I think you shouldn't forget that his most famous work, Angels of Darkness, dealt with Legion fluff and many were sad to see a dark angel chaplain get his mind warped buy a fallen who couldn't keep a story straight, seeing it (rightfully so) as a disservice to the Dart Angels. Curze fights are boring cause they always end the same way (except for Prince of Crows) it's like how would people react of if authors suddenly had Horus and the Emperor fighting multiple times before Terra? We know Curze's fate. Enough IMO. I really appreciated Abnetts portrayal of the Lion. We got a very cold figure who does not take kindly to insults. In Kyme and another audio work, with an author I don't know, we have a very unpleasant character that is just petty and unpleasant. This is all my opinion of course. It seems we are of opposite mind though :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4314966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izlude Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I am also in the camp Gav is okay and not that much of a fan for his work but I am looking forward to this book mostly because the cover art is deft! I agree with the above that my favorite portrayal for the lion has been with Abnett. The Lion seemed more likeable in some ways (although cold). He just seems like a big baby in other version, sort of paranoid and petty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4314973 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgard Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 While I have a somewhat mixed record with Gav's works (I was not a fan of "Deliverance Lost", did not care for "The Purging of Kadillus", and thought "Angels of Darkness" was merely OK, but really liked his Raven Guard novellas and the Legacy of Caliban trilogy - as these seem to be more recent works, I am more encouraged in his future output), I think that he got the HH-era Dark Angels right. Something about his style works with them, and gives them the right kind of flavor in my opinion; I think he did a better Lion in the eponymous novella than either of his predecessors in two full-length novels, and kept just enough of a mystery about the First Primarch to keep me interested. As far as Curze as antagonist... I do think he is a bit overused, but I also wonder if the leaked cover of "Angels of Caliban" is truly representative of what we will find in the novel. For all we know, the Lion/Curze battle could be a sideshow, yet being that it features two Primarchs squaring off against one another, it makes for very good selling point/cover material. I guess we will all find out when the book is released... I would prefer for the Curze arc to be concluded, at least for the time being, because I am not sure what else there is to gain from his presence at this point in the story, and hope that "Angels of Caliban" provides that sense of (temporary) closure... at least until Curze's presence will be justified by the ongoing macro developments within the Heresy storyline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4315008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Oh, so it's another Unremmbred Empire book? Just great... What I'm fraid of is that we won't get any book where Angels are cool/doing something significant. Of course we know about Thramas crusade but there's no book about it. And I really hope one day Dark Angels will get a better author than Gav Thrope - in 40k there's only one book (Purging of Kadillus) that's NOT about hunting the fallen. I'd really like to see First Legion doing some serious battle not some skirmishes like Diamat or Sarosh and I want to see them 'being cool' and inspiring. Gav Thorpe proved he's unable to write anything 'cool' (ie. book that won't be used later by DA haters as a proof that Dark Angels are "disloyal jerks") about 1st legion. Only thing they do now is following their convoluted agenda like their 40k counterparts. And that's boring and disheartening for me. I'm really starting to dislike 1st legion because seriously, we like our chapters/legions because of the fluff and so far DA fluff is mega weak (excluding Savage Weapons and first DA book about the order). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4315077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 My issue with Gav is that there is little to no culture in the Legions outside of Astartes + whatever trope they're supposed to have. AD-B tries to go out of his way to layer this into the legions he works with, and Abnett instituted the genius Theoretical/Practical in 'Know No Fear' for the XIII, but other than that what do we really have? We get told left and right that the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus are the preeminent legion but we never really see it in action. Do the authors have to cede that world building to FW now? Which I guess is understandable since they are working with the authors, but I find it interesting that everything we've learned about the I Legion and their tactics as far as their multi role specialization due to being the first Legion to begin the crusade as well as being the Emperor's personal Legion for a time hasn't been in one of their actual novels. I understand it's a tricky balance between progressing the story and adding background, and maybe the powers that be think the novels aren't exactly the place for that, but we've been stuck in Ultramar for two years or more (real time) with a bunch of stories that weren't essential, the least they could do is throw us fluff geeks a bone or two. Maybe I'm asking too much, I dunno. Just frustrated is all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4315299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Dark Angels' fluff and stories are one of those that are just a matter of taste as you either love or hate it. Like the depiction of Lion that is seemingly all over the place and lack consistency. In fact, Lion is remarkably different than his brother and yet, even Curze talks about how similar they are (growing up alone). Raised without humans over a long time, Lion's mysterious upbringing definitely shaped him to be inhumane. While Russ is wearing the mask of savage, Lion is truly an inhumane being and that alone seemingly makes him can be rather poor in judgment when dealing with people. Coupled with the Watchers themselves, the shrouds around Lion gets thicker...ADB's Savage Weapons was very good; Corswain, Alajos, Lion and Curze and even Sheng are wonderfully depicted. Not to mention, Luther's verbatiim that sets the tone of that tale... The prose about knight lord that kept drumming his finger while contemplating on his throne and hissed conspiringlyHe also wrote the best end fight scene when Lion saluted his fallen foe (Told ya, I will be the end...) It is not that hard to see why ADB is crowd's fav hereDan Abnett brings a fresh look into the ruthless efficiency and dedication of the First Legion and its Primarch in stopping the usurpation by those unworthy of inheriting the mantle. Lion is likeable here yet retained his sharp ruthlessness. Apparently, the 6 wings and exotic weaponry were said to be the idea from Alan Bligh himself... Bonus: Nick Kyme's Lion in Deathfire is one of top characterisation for Lion himself. Mysterious, deadly, so sure of his purpose, cynical... Herald of Sanguinius of Andy Simile and Laurel of Defiance by Guy Haley capture the cynicism very well albeit briefly.Chris Wraight - His Dark Angels in Wolf King highlighted the nobility of the Calibanites and its aristocratic flavour... Cant wait to see how he write Lion and the Wolf especially...Who can forget about Mitchel Scanlon and Mike Lee that really set the tone and characterisation of Lion? We see much insight and foreshadowing even behind his thoughts and motives. Gav Thorpe has rocked the entire history with his controversial Angels of Darkness, depicting Astelan and his skillful manipulation that was reflected nicely in Masters of the First. He is not afraid of experimenting and putting things that can enrich the setting, notably Mastodon in the Lion novella. The same can be said when his experiments either shock people to debate the fluff or seems to be poorly considered. However, Nemiel I think has became a good setup for future relationships of certain individuals and their dealings. His writing somehow grew on me and I do enjoy his Lion as a believably flawed being of prodigious prowess. Although Lion is a grim and no non-sense black & white character like Stannis Baratheon, yet, he could be as noble being burdened with secrets like Jaime Lannister himself. Tywin Lannister represented his ruthlessness and strategic brilliant that many authors could describe but could not illustrate fully.Take Tulchulcha for instance, many are angry that he did not use his inherent strategic and imaginative mind to trap the Night Lords as he chose to claim the warp daemon device to end the trolling of Midnight clad Lords once and for all. Once, Lion predicted that he can clear Caliban of its monsters within 6 years, but it took 10 years to do so. As it is in this case, Lion wants to end the Thramas Crusade so that he can begin hunting others. The Dark Angels did not mind about attrition but they rather precisely and surgically end the fight whenever possible. The First Legion is scattered with the main force now under control of Grand Master Haradin, Lion and his 30,000 warriors in Imperium Secundus, Luther's own force of tens of thousands of recruits in Caliban and not to mention, forces under Corswain and Belath returning to Caliban. Not only that, there are numerous garrison forces in void fortresses and starfort around fringes of the Imperium. Even Alpharius suspected whether Dark Angels is around to foil his plan in Serpent Beneath. Although the First Legion may reign supreme as of now due to most Legions now bleeding and suffering from attrition, the civil war within them will be explored in the Angels of Caliban which covers the fate of First Legion forces in both sides of the Ruinstorm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4315327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 HaSY - great and impressive thoughts on DA. Totally agree.But the 25th (ok joking but too much anyway) duel between Lion and Curze? Come on.... We all know that not the Lion, no the Curze will die! Because - LORE! And they wouldn't dare to change it - sadly ;( Another inconclusive fight just to make space - totally meh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4315413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I haven't read enough DA books to compare between the depiction of the Lion or the authors work. I do like the first HH DA book, Ravenwing and so on. The relation between the Lion and Curze is like an oldschool feud. No one is able to defeat the other but their destinies are stricken. Think that there will be one final battle in which one of them will be the definite superior combatant, leaving the other no choice but to flee and to avoid the winner. It can happen in AoC, finally ending the Imperium Secundus arc and leading to the fight within the first Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4315587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 The relation between the Lion and Curze is like an oldschool feud. No one is able to defeat the other but their destinies are stricken. Think that there will be one final battle in which one of them will be the definite superior combatant, leaving the other no choice but to flee and to avoid the winner. This has already happened in Prince of Crows: the Lion leaves Curze in a coma Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4315594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 HaSY - great and impressive thoughts on DA. Totally agree. But the 25th (ok joking but too much anyway) duel between Lion and Curze? Come on.... We all know that not the Lion, no the Curze will die! Because - LORE! And they wouldn't dare to change it - sadly ;( Another inconclusive fight just to make space - totally meh. While it may end up going this way, I will say that in the right hands, even a fight with a known conclusion can be very enjoyable. Let's be honest, in most fictional battles we know who is going to win or lose, but if it's done well, we can still be engaged and thrilled by it. Greek classics were well-known tales to their audience, but they had fun toying with that knowledge, turning it to their advantage and using it to enhance the story rather than see it as a hindrance. To me, this is what the HH authors should aim to do (which is not a back-handed way of saying they aren't). We all know how this is going to end. But that doesn't mean it can't be a hell of a ride to get there. Of course, the other side of this is that it's good to have authors create and build up new characters, ones we -don't- know the eventual fate of. I can imagine that pre-existing characters, such as the primarchs, are tempting because they're such big presences, as fans we're already invested in them so heavily, and I'm sure the authors themselves are all just that: fans. I know I'd love to write about these larger-than-life characters. But if they can create new characters and work to make us invested in them too, then they can cut loose and mess with us even more Alright, I'll stop rambling now. Time for bed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4315716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
veterannoob Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Here's the interview with Gav Thorpe, sorry internet gremlins made it late. Gav's interview starts around 23 minutes in and the 30K-Angels of Caliban and other HH titles is included mostly in the second half of the interview. We move around depending on the lore. Enjoy if you like:) http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/4/c/e/4ce8f98c68676bdd/Ep_133_-_Legacy_of_Caliban_wGav_Thorpe.mp3?c_id=11000551&expiration=1456233870&hwt=7d789022fd3aa2e804165c56b912aefb Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4316089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Just to let you know: the link includes the "." at the end, so it errors out. Removing that from the url works. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4316107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
veterannoob Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Edited link above. Thanks. For spotting that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4316149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 He specifically said "the Lion is dead" ... there goes the peoples hope. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/#findComment-4316396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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