DarKnight Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 He specifically said "the Lion is dead" ... there goes the peoples hope. Maybe we can get AD-B to answer that definitely, though I'd imagine it doesn't matter/non-starter anyway since Primarchs aren't coming back anyway, but can he make that decision? I don't know if that was always GW's true feelings on the matter and the "sleeping Lion" was just fluff to them, but if it was in the ether and just taken on its face that he's been asleep, can a creator straight up kill a character that integral to one of the most popular armies? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Is there any reason why AD-B's word would hold any more significance on the matter than Gav's? Gav has a far longer history with GW all around, and is the go-to DA person. There is no reason to assume that his facts are wrong on this, at least until somebody else at GW higher up the chain / an official publication makes a different claim. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roomsky Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 It is a little odd that all of a sudden they would go with "nah, he's not asleep, he's dead." Not that I mind, Primarchs don't need to be showing up in 40k IMHO, but from a marketing standpoint Lion being alive could end up being more profitable. On the topic of the novel itself, with the prominence of Astelan in all his HH works and what happened to Nemiel, I really hope Gav doesn't axe off Zahariel so Astelan can steal the spotlight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Hasn't he been axed already, in another novel? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgard Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I thought that the eventual fate of Zahariel was heavily hinted at (if not pretty much described) in Pandorax ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Thought that as well, Midgard. ;) The Lion is dead? Srsly? I don't need the Primarchs returning in 40k, but of all possible returns, his was the most likely and that is what I loved about it. That made the Rock cool. I won't give anything about it. For me, Johnson is still alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316650 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 That's what Gav says in that audio interview. Something along the lines of "there are some established facts we have to go with like the lion being dead" ... he did say something else but I can't remember. Like it was said by another post, why would you want ADB to comment being that it's Gav's lore and he seems to be the go-to-guy when it comes to the Dark Angels? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Is there any reason why AD-B's word would hold any more significance on the matter than Gav's? Gav has a far longer history with GW all around, and is the go-to DA person. There is no reason to assume that his facts are wrong on this, at least until somebody else at GW higher up the chain / an official publication makes a different claim. I was just wondering if it was within an author's purview, not that one author supersedes another. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Is there any reason why AD-B's word would hold any more significance on the matter than Gav's? Gav has a far longer history with GW all around, and is the go-to DA person. There is no reason to assume that his facts are wrong on this, at least until somebody else at GW higher up the chain / an official publication makes a different claim. I was just wondering if it was within an author's purview, not that one author supersedes another. Like Kelborn said, the Lion is still sleeping under the Rock in my headcanon but just asserting that he's dead just seems so unnecessarily final after ALL this time and I just wondered whether it was Gav's idea unilaterally, GW IP guys, or if he asked and they said we'll allow you to do this oneeeeeeee thing. In itself it's not some unforgivable (HA!) sin, I was just curious. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I might be wrong but he said that Drk Angels themselves think that Lion is dead. And that makes sense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 I might be wrong but he said that Drk Angels themselves think that Lion is dead. And that makes sense. That's the established canon though, right? Outside of the Grand Master everyone thinks he's dead. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaSY Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 No one but the Watchers, Emperor and Luther know that Lion is alive.Despite the mystery of Epimetheus, I still believe Zahariel still deserves something better than that... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4316891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 1) Zahariel is Epimetheus. 2) Lion is alive (but unconcisious - his soul is in the warp). 3) Watchers are dying. Anyway - don'y worry DA fans. After the fluff in 'Wulfen' it is known that the Legion will die under the SW axes. Because - a) SW are overpowered with each novel from BL; b) There are more puppies lovers than DA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4318712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 HeritorA, mind spoiling or PMing me the new fluff from said Wulfen book? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 26, 2016 Author Share Posted February 26, 2016 Anyway - don'y worry DA fans. After the fluff in 'Wulfen' it is known that the Legion will die under the SW axes. Because - a) SW are overpowered with each novel from BL; b) There are more puppies lovers than DA.:D I could easily see BL having Grimnar defeating Azrael (perhaps in the ultimate SW vs. DA honour duel to settle the current Wulfen conflict)...but not the other way around SW are rarely ever on the receiving end of the stick Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeritorA Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 b1soul - they created so an overpowered image of SW, that they can't fix it themselves now. I just reread the point where 100 thunderwolves attacked a 100000 daemon horde and massacre it. 100000 - ahahahhahahahah. Even Emperor, Custodes and Primarch can't do that in HH.The most hilarios stuff in Wulfen is actually the casualties - SW lost like hundreds of brothers. In the end - The chapter is like 9 companies strong. Epic consistency with logic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendingon1+ Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Nothing is wrong with this kill ratio. Remember this? Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops. Thunderwolves just multiply it x100 Give me a hundred Thunderwolves. Or failing that give me a hundred thousand other troops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Is there any reason why AD-B's word would hold any more significance on the matter than Gav's? Gav has a far longer history with GW all around, and is the go-to DA person. There is no reason to assume that his facts are wrong on this, at least until somebody else at GW higher up the chain / an official publication makes a different claim. Because ADB is an all around better writer, lore creator and guy than Gav? Gav could say the sky is blue and grass is green and people should still check Talon of Horus to make sure it actually is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 His authority on background matters, ESPECIALLY concerning Chapters and Legions he is not actively writing, is in no way above that of Gav, or any other writer. No matter how much you adore him and put him on a pedestal, he is still a freelance author writing for BL, not an editor, lore-guru or Alan Merrett incarnate. He has to do the same research into the subject matter as any other author, and rely on editor approval. Besides, I find it hilariously bad that you judge Gav's personality as in "he's a worse guy than AD-B". How condescending and disrespectful can you possibly be? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 His authority on background matters, ESPECIALLY concerning Chapters and Legions he is not actively writing, is in no way above that of Gav, or any other writer. No matter how much you adore him and put him on a pedestal, he is still a freelance author writing for BL, not an editor, lore-guru or Alan Merrett incarnate. He has to do the same research into the subject matter as any other author, and rely on editor approval. He absolutely IS above those other authors considering he's the one being allowed to write the major heresy movers and shakers. Lorgar, father of the heresy and the Emperor. I don't see any Gav novels about anything but side character Primarchs. Besides, I find it hilariously bad that you judge Gav's personality as in "he's a worse guy than AD-B". How condescending and disrespectful can you possibly be? First, ADB takes the time out of his day to talk to us. Gav doesn't. Second, you don't get to determine what is and isn't disrespectful, you're just some anonymous poster like the rest of us. Leave the Moderating to the Mods. Any further attempts to police my opinions or the opinions of other posters will be reported. It's not your job to try and control us. If you can't be civil, don't try to bully other posters into agreeing with you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Totaly agree. If you don't like his style of writing, don't read his books. But none of us has the right to criticize him in such a way. Yeah, Gav is no A D B. Kyme is no Abnett. So what? Their books are ok. There is indeed room for improvement but this thread should not degenerate into an anti Gav stage! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tymell Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 His authority on background matters, ESPECIALLY concerning Chapters and Legions he is not actively writing, is in no way above that of Gav, or any other writer. No matter how much you adore him and put him on a pedestal, he is still a freelance author writing for BL, not an editor, lore-guru or Alan Merrett incarnate. He has to do the same research into the subject matter as any other author, and rely on editor approval. He absolutely IS above those other authors considering he's the one being allowed to write the major heresy movers and shakers. Lorgar, father of the heresy and the Emperor. I don't see any Gav novels about anything but side character Primarchs. Besides, I find it hilariously bad that you judge Gav's personality as in "he's a worse guy than AD-B". How condescending and disrespectful can you possibly be? First, ADB takes the time out of his day to talk to us. Gav doesn't. Second, you don't get to determine what is and isn't disrespectful, you're just some anonymous poster like the rest of us. Leave the Moderating to the Mods. Any further attempts to police my opinions or the opinions of other posters will be reported. It's not your job to try and control us. If you can't be civil, don't try to bully other posters into agreeing with you. I think you're being unfair to Gav there. Neither I nor you (I assume) know him or ADB closely, so it doesn't seem fair to judge either of them on that basis. Gav isn't some insular hermit that never addresses anyone outside GW (see the interview posted in this very thread, for example), and even if he was, that's up to him. To make a sweeping judgement of Gav, not simply as an author, but as a person, -does- sound pretty disrespectful, and just isn't necessary here. I also don't really think you can describe any primarch as a "side-character" :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319855 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Until Gav deigns to walk us through his thought process behind his lore moments (and this applies to any author), the ones who embrace audience participation and actually rub internet shoulders with us will always be above those who don't in my opinion. Which is all this ever was, my opinion. I am not leading a crusade to change hearts and minds, I was just throwing something out there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
veterannoob Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 FYI many of the BL authors have websites where they take questions and quite regularly respond via newsletter, blog posts, social media. Gav puts out a monthly newsletter, yesterday I believe,and is actually pretty active on social media. Guy Haley astounds me that he replies to every questions he gets on his site, most recently a "controversial" post about AoS. So good on him. Josh Reynolds is extremely active with questions. The means to engage can be blog, good reads-type sites, and again social media is popular. AD-to-the-B graces us here with his presence . Laurie G is on the First Expedition forum. Some authors do participate on forums or even give the occasional lurk. Naturally fans have mixed opinions on their works but I can't blame an author for not wanting to engage with a lot of negative feedback. Guess their skin is thicker than mine.;) Of course event is entitled to their opinion but just pointing out that there are means to engage with authors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
veterannoob Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 That's what Gav says in that audio interview. Something along the lines of "there are some established facts we have to go with like the lion being dead" ... he did say something else but I can't remember. Like it was said by another post, why would you want ADB to comment being that it's Gav's lore and he seems to be the go-to-guy when it comes to the Dark Angels? I glanced over at the time this part covers and it was 37 and change minutes into the episode. Then circles back around to the end. I recommend anyone who wants to know hear it yourself to interpret how you will. Most DA fans have a load more lore and context about this chapter than I so maybe you'll see something we don't. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/319526-so-is-angels-of-caliban/page/2/#findComment-4319937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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