So is Angels of Caliban...

[Arkangilos]

It doesn't really fit for Kurze since he's insane, but eventually I want to see a loyalist and traitor Primarch just talk. Like normal people do when they have a falling out with their family. Yell and throw stuff, and then just leave. You never get the feeling these guys were brothers with the other team. We got close in Savage Weapons, and I actually felt like Angron and Lorgar were real brothers treating each other the same way people do when a family member is addicted to drugs or a vegan. I want Dorn and Perturabo to finally cross paths and have the mother of all 'you never loved me' moments, and then mutually be unable to kill each other or even physically attack one another because beneath all that iron and stone they re just dysfunctional brothers pretending like they are sure of themselves.

Maybe Horus will break down into tears as he kills Sanguinius, and Sanguinius will sadly say he forgives him. Then the Emperor comes along and they hug it out :(

[karden00]

It doesn't really fit for Kurze since he's insane, but eventually I want to see a loyalist and traitor Primarch just talk. Like normal people do when they have a falling out with their family. Yell and throw stuff, and then just leave. You never get the feeling these guys were brothers with the other team. We got close in Savage Weapons, and I actually felt like Angron and Lorgar were real brothers treating each other the same way people do when a family member is addicted to drugs or a vegan. I want Dorn and Perturabo to finally cross paths and have the mother of all 'you never loved me' moments, and then mutually be unable to kill each other or even physically attack one another because beneath all that iron and stone they re just dysfunctional brothers pretending like they are sure of themselves.

 

Bloody hilarious. I laughed out loud in class from that. 

Made my day. 

[Mellow]

Yes, the vegan comment made me laugh too!

 

As for Horus feeling sad at killing Sanguinius, I'd doubt it very much. He's totally warp-spawned-psycho-killer-mad at this point. Anyone not with him is against him (only the corrupt deal in absolutes, much like Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi).

[Arkangilos]

Yes, the vegan comment made me laugh too!

 

As for Horus feeling sad at killing Sanguinius, I'd doubt it very much. He's totally warp-spawned-psycho-killer-mad at this point. Anyone not with him is against him (only the corrupt deal in absolutes, much like Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi).

In older fluff he still tried convincing Sanguinius to join him.

[Phoebus]

Nick Kyme wrote a better Lion El'Jonson in Deathfire than Dan did in TUE.

*Eye twitch*

[Phoebus]

... - in 40k there's only one book (Purging of Kadillus) that's NOT about hunting the fallen.

That, in and of itself, doesn't bother me.

 

Warhammer 40k is a setting. Within this setting, there are themes, factions, and concepts. Do the Dark Angels fight enemies who aren't Fallen? Of course. From a literary fiction perspective, however, the Fallen are what make the Unforgiven unique. What exactly do you get from a, e.g., Dark Angels vs. Tyranids story that you wouldn't get by substituting the former with Ultramarines? Unless the author is really creative, the answer is probably "not much."

[DarkChaplain]

 

Nick Kyme wrote a better Lion El'Jonson in Deathfire than Dan did in TUE.

*Eye twitch*

 

 

In every story before TUE, the Lion was highly suspicious of Guilliman's plans. The last story before it, he even implied wanting to crash the party. Then Dan came in, and turned him almost into a kitten. He went along with Roboute, with only a token amount of suspicion. He tried too hard to stand in Guilliman's favor, and just not telling him about Curze didn't balance it out. Guilliman could've offered him cat food with his palm, and the Lion would've gone for it.

 

In Deathfire, Kyme at least made the Lion enigmatic in a way, and sowed seeds of doubt. He had his own agenda apart from Roboute and Sanguinius. He had his misgivings and secrets, but kept up appearances at least somewhat.

[Phoebus]

That's what Gav says in that audio interview. Something along the lines of "there are some established facts we have to go with like the lion being dead" ... he did say something else but I can't remember.

 

Like it was said by another post, why would you want ADB to comment being that it's Gav's lore and he seems to be the go-to-guy when it comes to the Dark Angels?

If that's how he phrased it, I wonder if Gav just isn't up to speed with what the codices have been saying for some years now. The last two editions of Codex: Dark Angels reveal something that no one but the Emperor knows: that the Lion lies sleeping at the heart of the Rock. The last edition even qualified his wounds are healed.

 

If the established facts Gav is referring to are circa June 2015 or more recently, and GW somehow kept those cards close to themselves while simultaneously giving him license to speak about them liberally, so be it. My guess, however, is that there isn't a perfect understanding between the authors who write novels and the authors who write codices. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect authors of the novels to treat codices and other material as mandatory references (though I think they help make the setting more coherent). The flip side of that coin, though, is that this setting's stories are written by a sort of three-headed monster, and not all three heads might possess the same lore.

 

Here's an example of what I'm talking about: character names. Both Gav Thorpe and Aaron Dembski-Bowden have written novels that depict the Dark Angels either in the Thirteenth Black Crusade (999.M41) or in the eve of it*. Both reference Company Masters. Neither uses a name provided in Codex: Dark Angels. Now, I suppose one could offer that Gav's Issachar dies before 999.M41 and is replaced by the codex's Astoran, while the codex's Korahael dies sometime right before the Thirteenth Black Crusade and is replaced by Aaron's Sorael. Forgive me, however, for viewing such an argument as a stretch of convenience.

 

* in Gav's case, The Unforgiven has to be set in late 997.M41 or later; Belial is currently the Grand Master of the Deathwing, but in that year was still Master of Third Company and fighting in Piscina IV.

[veterannoob]

I went back and Listened to this part again After some discussion and I hear a different context. I believe Gav framed that as the level of Intel given to DA as they start up the chain. So what the basic person knows I, "The Lion is dead....blah blah blah." But who knows:)

[Phoebus]

In every story before TUE, the Lion was highly suspicious of Guilliman's plans. The last story before it, he even implied wanting to crash the party. Then Dan came in, and turned him almost into a kitten. He went along with Roboute, with only a token amount of suspicion. He tried too hard to stand in Guilliman's favor, and just not telling him about Curze didn't balance it out. Guilliman could've offered him cat food with his palm, and the Lion would've gone for it.

I (respectfully) disagree.

 

The Lion certainly arrives in Ultramar suspicious of Guilliman's motives. And how does Abnett describe his arrival? As the velvet glove concealing an iron fist. The Lion makes a show of unity, pomp and circumstance, etc., but has thousands of Dark Angels ready to rain fire on Macragge. That's an apt showing of a man not quick to trust. The fact that Abnett humanizes the Lion by showing him as someone conflicted by his need for secrets and wanting to have bonds of comraderie doesn't make the character any weaker. If anything, it makes him better than the pantomime "secretive because" depiction we'd seen for so long.

 

Don't take this as me endorsing Imperium Secundus, by the way. I don't like that story angle. I don't like its fundamental premise, which is that, in absence of concrete knowledge of the Emperor's demise, Guilliman feels that they have to assume he is dead and go through the motions of setting up a new Imperium. The Five Hundred Worlds were already a self-sufficient realm that answered to Guilliman (as the Emperor's son) first. Setting up a Replacement Emperor serves no purpose other than a questionable propaganda effort. It's not like the people of Ultramar would mutiny had it not been for Sanguinius being paraded around as Emperor.

 

With that in mind, did I like the idea of the Lion signing on for Imperium Secundus? No. Within the context of that story, though, I can accept that the Lion no longer sees himself as being alone against Horus's traitors. I can accept that the Lion might not like Imperium Secundus, but that he recognizes Guilliman isn't out to supplant his father. I can accept that, with everything that's going on, the Lion would rather count Guilliman and Sanguinius as allies who would still count themselves loyal to the Emperor if he turned out to be alive.

 

If you want an unrealistic, unflattering depiction of the primarch of the Dark Angels, look no further than The Lion (in my humble opinion). I've yet to figure out why the Lion felt letting a known traitor (Typhon) go free was a good idea. I found the explanations given to be equal parts illogical and disappointing.  

 

In Deathfire, Kyme at least made the Lion enigmatic in a way, and sowed seeds of doubt. He had his own agenda apart from Roboute and Sanguinius. He had his misgivings and secrets, but kept up appearances at least somewhat.

It's a cameo, no more. Nothing new is shown.

I went back and Listened to this part again After some discussion and I hear a different context. I believe Gav framed that as the level of Intel given to DA as they start up the chain. So what the basic person knows I, "The Lion is dead....blah blah blah." But who knows:)

That makes a great deal more sense (I think).

[Petitioner's City]

 

That's what Gav says in that audio interview. Something along the lines of "there are some established facts we have to go with like the lion being dead" ... he did say something else but I can't remember.

 

Like it was said by another post, why would you want ADB to comment being that it's Gav's lore and he seems to be the go-to-guy when it comes to the Dark Angels?

If that's how he phrased it, I wonder if Gav just isn't up to speed with what the codices have been saying for some years now. The last two editions of Codex: Dark Angels reveal something that no one but the Emperor knows: that the Lion lies sleeping at the heart of the Rock. The last edition even qualified his wounds are healed.

 

If the established facts Gav is referring to are circa June 2015 or more recently, and GW somehow kept those cards close to themselves while simultaneously giving him license to speak about them liberally, so be it. My guess, however, is that there isn't a perfect understanding between the authors who write novels and the authors who write codices. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect authors of the novels to treat codices and other material as mandatory references (though I think they help make the setting more coherent). The flip side of that coin, though, is that this setting's stories are written by a sort of three-headed monster, and not all three heads might not possess the same lore.

 

Here's an example of what I'm talking about: character names. Both Gav Thorpe and Aaron Dembski-Bowden have written novels that depict the Dark Angels either in the Thirteenth Black Crusade (999.M41) or in the eve of it*. Both reference Company Masters. Neither uses a name provided in Codex: Dark Angels. Now, I suppose one could offer that Gav's Issachar dies before 999.M41 and is replaced by the codex's Astoran, while the codex's Korahael dies sometime right before the Thirteenth Black Crusade and is replaced by Aaron's Sorael. Forgive me, however, for viewing such an argument as a stretch of convenience.

 

* in Gav's case, The Unforgiven has to be set in late 997.M41 or later; Belial is currently the Grand Master of the Deathwing, but in that year was still Master of Third Company and fighting in Piscina IV.

 

 

I guess I would love it if Codex authors conformed themselves to writers like ADB or to FW or to older Black Templar codices :D but ultimately i find myself agreeing with ADB about a multiplicity of interpretations rather than a unifying mono-verse, so that codices, FW books, BL books, comics and the like can exist side by side and offer up more room for authorial creation. The unfortunate thing is when interesting developments in fluff are forgotten (13th Black Crusade, BTs, etc) because the medium of their print is a magazine or codex which no longer is in print, rather than being allowed to exist in-print as 'myriad universes' (to borrow a treklit term). 

[Phoebus]

It's all good. There are any number of reasons one can summon for the various inconsistencies in the setting. The only reason I posted the above was because Gav was talking about seemingly "established facts".

 

I was reading the topic (I think) you were referencing, by the way. I find myself agreeing with A D-B on that matter as well... but I am wary of whole-cloth retcons or what have you. So, for instance, if one wishes to seize on the "Christian military order" vibe of the Order of Caliban and thus pushes more of a "secretive Knights Templar conspiracy" aspect on the Dark Angels, I'm fine with it. I dig seeing the culture of a chapter get deeper/more nuanced. The changes we saw with the Black Templars, on the other hand? Not so much... and we're as likely to get that as we are, I don't know, something hitherto unseen but really apropos like the Deathwing Knights.

[HaSY]

Can someone tell about spoiler in Dark between stars?

[karden00]

 

Nick Kyme wrote a better Lion El'Jonson in Deathfire than Dan did in TUE.

*Eye twitch*

 

Eye twitch seconded 

[Marshal Rohr]

We have a second eye twitch, the motion is carried. 

[Mellow]

 

Yes, the vegan comment made me laugh too!

 

As for Horus feeling sad at killing Sanguinius, I'd doubt it very much. He's totally warp-spawned-psycho-killer-mad at this point. Anyone not with him is against him (only the corrupt deal in absolutes, much like Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan Kenobi).

In older fluff he still tried convincing Sanguinius to join him.

True, he did. I guess we'll have to wait and see just how much regret he shows once the deed is done.

[HeritorA]

Nick Kyme wrote a better Lion El'Jonson in Deathfire than Dan did in TUE.

*Eye twitch*

Eye twitch for the third time.