IA Brief - following from 'ideas made flesh'

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

So, following on from my first brainstorming thread, this is what stuck after multiple ideas were thrown against the wall.

 

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IA (NAME)

Geneseed

-White Scars

-Imperial Fists

-Ultramarines

-Dark Angels

Summary: Dark Angels have too much emotional baggage. White Scars mix better culturally with the Gothic sea raider homeworld, other than the Imperial Fists (Templar offshoot displays many medieval gothic tendencies) however with the BT I don't want to muddy the pool, that and they aren't quite the same culturally as the earlier Gothic tribes.

 

Homeworld (NAME)

- Temperate to Cold climate.

- Surface a good 70%+ covered by water.

- Seaborne raider/trader culture.

- Whaling, fishing and raiding primary means of survival.

-21 unique city states, each a trade and defensive hub for surrounding archepelegos. City States protect those that provide for it against other city states, but out on the seas the fishers and whalers basically fend for themselves, raiding their competition - or not - as they see fit to survive.

-Gothic (germanic) inspired aesthetic and cultural heritage.

-Evidence of some presence of ancient technology, and even the passed down know how to operate it, however the understanding of higher technology and the applications of said tech do not translate into a better way to live. Their understanding far outstrips their means to produce or maintain anything beyond early medieval tools and materials.

 

Founding

10th (Whenever, not really an issue).

 

Colour Scheme

(None Yet)

 

Organization

Despite having a homeworld, being largely fleet based would fit the theme nicely, but it's a bit of an ask given the two are somewhat mutually exclusive.

Perhaps a setup more in the line of the Iron Hands companies, the Great Companies of the Space Wolves or more conveniently, the various Hunts launched by the White Scars, each battlegroup is somewhat self contained, only when their mission is complete do they return to the chapters homeworld to restock and resupply.

It would lead to the chapter deploying en-masse relatively rare, comparative to a regular chapter. It would also need a strong leadership to tie it together, but since I didn't go with either of my favourite chapters (Salamanders, Blood Angels), I don't have the strong internal ideology of either chapter to draw on. The White Scars have their own philosophy, and perhaps that would work, however I don't want to draw so heavily from their parent chapter that they lose their individual identity as a successor.

 

Any sections not mentioned have not yet been considered.

 

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If anyone has 5 cents, to throw in. Hell toss any amount of whatever currency you'd like in and I'll take a look.

 

Discussion and brainstorming is fun, I love it, but I also want to finish at least one of my multiple IA attempts. 

 

It might look a bit bare bones but that is by design. I want ideas thrown at me and discussion taking place, I also didn't want to develop too much in a vacuum only to have to throw it out through critique or redesign later.

 

[Olis]

Discussion and brainstorming is fun, I love it, but I also want to finish at least one of my multiple IA attempts.

Heh, join the club.

So... I have an idea. A thematic one. Have you heard of the Hanseatic League?

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Until just now, only in passing.

 

After skimming the Wiki article on the League, I see why it came to mind.

 

So your thematic idea, are you applying it to the homeworld and it's culture or the chapter. I can see how it could be applied to either or both, I'm just wondering how you're intending it.

[Olis]

Pretty much a homeworld thing, I think. There may or may not be cultural bleed-over to the Chapter but that would be entirely in your hands.

[Conn Eremon]

IA (NAME)

Geneseed

-White Scars

-Imperial Fists

-Ultramarines

-Dark Angels

Summary: Dark Angels have too much emotional baggage. White Scars mix better culturally with the Gothic sea raider homeworld, other than the Imperial Fists (Templar offshoot displays many medieval gothic tendencies) however with the BT I don't want to muddy the pool, that and they aren't quite the same culturally as the earlier Gothic tribes.

Gene-seed source does not have to directly correlate to the successor's cultural identity. The Dark Hunters are nothing like their progenitors the White Scars, for example. Gene-seed will provide genetic details (extreme example: the Blood Angels' Flaw) and ancestral heritage (extreme example: the Dark Angels' Fallen).

 

Your home world is more likely to determine the Chapter's culture. Or whatever home or environment the Chapter persists in, if it claims no world.

 

Homeworld (NAME)

- Temperate to Cold climate.

- Surface a good 70%+ covered by water.

- Seaborne raider/trader culture.

- Whaling, fishing and raiding primary means of survival.

-21 unique city states, each a trade and defensive hub for surrounding archepelegos. City States protect those that provide for it against other city states, but out on the seas the fishers and whalers basically fend for themselves, raiding their competition - or not - as they see fit to survive.

-Gothic (germanic) inspired aesthetic and cultural heritage.

-Evidence of some presence of ancient technology, and even the passed down know how to operate it, however the understanding of higher technology and the applications of said tech do not translate into a better way to live. Their understanding far outstrips their means to produce or maintain anything beyond early medieval tools and materials.

Modern day Earth is 71% water, but I get the impression you want something closer to Fenris. Maybe up the percentage? Eurasia is just over a third of the world's landmass, so even 85% water would still have potential for the Americas and Africa sized landmasses

 

Founding

10th (Whenever, not really an issue).

I've begun to think that the Founding might be one of the most important details of a Chapter.

 

For instance, the 10th Founding. Mid-M35 is where Lexicanum puts it, and I own its source so if you'd like me to prove it just ask.

 

Nova Terra Interregnum takes place in M35. Nearly half all Space Marine Foundings happen within these five hundred years, bracketed by the 10th at one end and the 21st at the other, which if I recall correctly is also soon after the end of the Interregnum.

 

That is an exceptional time period that we know nothing substantial about.

 

And it all happens during your Chapter's formative years. That's pretty dang big and relevant.

 

 

Organization

Despite having a homeworld, being largely fleet based would fit the theme nicely, but it's a bit of an ask given the two are somewhat mutually exclusive.

Perhaps a setup more in the line of the Iron Hands companies, the Great Companies of the Space Wolves or more conveniently, the various Hunts launched by the White Scars, each battlegroup is somewhat self contained, only when their mission is complete do they return to the chapters homeworld to restock and resupply.

 

It would lead to the chapter deploying en-masse relatively rare, comparative to a regular chapter. It would also need a strong leadership to tie it together, but since I didn't go with either of my favourite chapters (Salamanders, Blood Angels), I don't have the strong internal ideology of either chapter to draw on. The White Scars have their own philosophy, and perhaps that would work, however I don't want to draw so heavily from their parent chapter that they lose their individual identity as a successor.

Fleet-based and home world-centric are not mutually exclusive, they just tend to be one or the other. Nothing stops this home world from being the primary port of call, its use to the Chapter limited to that and recruitment alone. Nothing really requires a Chapter to meet a certain level of responsibility over their world, else we wouldn't have the range of Marine governorship that already have, from Macragge and Nocturne to Fenris and Chogoris.

[Olis]

For instance, the 10th Founding. Mid-M35 is where Lexicanum puts it, and I own its source so if you'd like me to prove it just ask.

Nova Terra Interregnum takes place in M35. Nearly half all Space Marine Foundings happen within these five hundred years, bracketed by the 10th at one end and the 21st at the other, which if I recall correctly is also soon after the end of the Interregnum.

 

That is an exceptional time period that we know nothing substantial about.

 

And it all happens during your Chapter's formative years. That's pretty dang big and relevant.

 

Concurred. Definitely concurred. The Founding dictates the immediate environment in which they find themselves and the over all reasoning why the Chapter came to be. 

 

Conn also talks about an occurrence that plays into my own fan-theory: With so many Foundings in such a short time, is there a possibility that some of those Chapters were, instead, created by the Ur-Council of Nova Terra and not the High Lords? I think there may be something to that. It then plays into the concept of competing Foundings, proxy wars between certain Chapters (a little akin to how the Cold War worked) and, finally, a repatriation and reaffirming of loyalties from those Chapters that had, at one time, not called the High Lords their direct masters. There's also the issue of covering up the extended civil war, or at least playing it down, and generally dealing with the fallout so that, by the 41st Millennium, much of the details of the fighting and ill-feeling between Chapters from that period has mostly gone away. 

 

Like I said, just a fan-theory. 

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Gene-seed source does not have to directly correlate to the successor's cultural identity. The Dark Hunters are nothing like their progenitors the White Scars, for example. Gene-seed will provide genetic details (extreme example: the Blood Angels' Flaw) and ancestral heritage (extreme example: the Dark Angels' Fallen).

 

Your home world is more likely to determine the Chapter's culture. Or whatever home or environment the Chapter persists in, if it claims no world.

 

 

You're absolutely right. I copied and pasted this whole cloth from my wordpad draft I'd been sitting on for the better part of a week and didn't think to edit for the sake of the reader rather than the author.

 

I was more considering with Geneseed for it to be inclusive of the influence of a training cadre from their parent chapter. I am one of those people who views the training cadre as a fairly essential part of the process of the chapters founding and formative experiences.

 

 

Modern day Earth is 71% water, but I get the impression you want something closer to Fenris. Maybe up the percentage? Eurasia is just over a third of the world's landmass, so even 85% water would still have potential for the Americas and Africa sized landmasses

 

 

Eh, damnit. I'll freely admit I dropped the ball there. I should have picked up on that far earlier than letting it get here. Yes, 71% is a bit too 'normal'. more towards 90%, more towards forcing the issue of creating the landmasses I'd prefer. That was silly of me!

 

I've begun to think that the Founding might be one of the most important details of a Chapter.

 

And I'd agree wholeheartedly. Again a lack of editing for readers benefit. To my mind, I hadn't got enough of a grasp on who I wanted the chapter to be and what experiences I wanted them to have had in their inception and early growth to really pin down what place in the 40k timeline I'd have them created in.

 

 

Nova Terra Interregnum takes place in M35. Nearly half all Space Marine Foundings happen within these five hundred years, bracketed by the 10th at one end and the 21st at the other, which if I recall correctly is also soon after the end of the Interregnum.

 

That is an exceptional time period that we know nothing substantial about.

 

And it all happens during your Chapter's formative years. That's pretty dang big and relevant.

 

 

I have to admit, my up-front knowledge of the varying points of the timeline and periods of Imperial history have slipped and dulled after a rather long absence. 

 

To be fair though, the time period is only as exceptional as I make it if little to no information is present for it. I'd guess you're more getting at it being relatively free of constraints, creatively speaking. That's fantastic, but as GW has a habit of doing, I'd rather not write anything too grand to then have it basically taken to pieces when GW suddenly decides to have something created based on the events they create therein.

 

Sometimes a framework is good to have something to work with, and I haven't gotten very far with this IA yet, this is the draftiest of drafts that I think I might ever have thrown at the Liber.

 

Thanks for the feedback Conn!

 

Much appreciated.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Sorry Olis, I missed your post while I was mashing my face into the keyboard for my reply to Conn.

 

Conn also talks about an occurrence that plays into my own fan-theory: With so many Foundings in such a short time, is there a possibility that some of those Chapters were, instead, created by the Ur-Council of Nova Terra and not the High Lords? I think there may be something to that. It then plays into the concept of competing Foundings, proxy wars between certain Chapters (a little akin to how the Cold War worked) and, finally, a repatriation and reaffirming of loyalties from those Chapters that had, at one time, not called the High Lords their direct masters. There's also the issue of covering up the extended civil war, or at least playing it down, and generally dealing with the fallout so that, by the 41st Millennium, much of the details of the fighting and ill-feeling between Chapters from that period has mostly gone away. 

 

 

I like this theory a lot, but my knowledge of all this is again sorely lacking. Do you have any material that relates to it that I could read? I must have hit my head and missed the Ur-Council and Terra Nova.

 

No I tell a lie, it rings a bell. A very faint, tiny bell in a land where very few bells still remain. Maybe?

[Dosjetka]

First Race Bannon reappears and then Grey Hunter Ydalir? This is an interesting start to the year!

 

Welcome back, brother! I fondly remember your Blazing Sons and hope to see them resurrected at some point, too. :) Oh, and I'll provide some C&C on your most recent IA a bit later on.

[Olis]

Sorry Olis, I missed your post while I was mashing my face into the keyboard for my reply to Conn.

No problem.

I like this theory a lot, but my knowledge of all this is again sorely lacking. Do you have any material that relates to it that I could read? I must have hit my head and missed the Ur-Council and Terra Nova.

No I tell a lie, it rings a bell. A very faint, tiny bell in a land where very few bells still remain. Maybe?

This is it in a nut shell (even if the info is from a wiki...).

[Conn Eremon]

Olis' theory is an awesome one, and has a lot going for it. Why were all the records of the 13th "Dark" Founding erased? Maybe because it's a catch-all for Chapters founded by Ur-Terra.

 

Ydalir, when I say it's exceptional, I mean it should be influential to your Chapter. That doesn't mean you have to dive into an information-free period and spill all the details. You don't even have to reference the period at all. But it did happen, your Chapter was a part of it (or not, which says a lot too), and that probably should show. Maybe your Chapter distrusts Imperial bureaucracy, maybe it has a particular hatred for rebellious worlds, maybe Chapter Noname has an intense rivalry bordering on open warfare with Chapter Whatsit, the origins of which all but forgotten but for a subtle hint or two.

 

You don't have to spill the beans, and risk GW ruining your article. You don't have to do anything with this period at all. But you might want to consider the impact it would have had nonetheless.

[Machine God]

Perhaps the Ur-Terra founded chapters are one of the reasons for chapters popping up having the same name as another chapter.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Ydalir, when I say it's exceptional, I mean it should be influential to your Chapter. That doesn't mean you have to dive into an information-free period and spill all the details. You don't even have to reference the period at all. But it did happen, your Chapter was a part of it (or not, which says a lot too), and that probably should show. Maybe your Chapter distrusts Imperial bureaucracy, maybe it has a particular hatred for rebellious worlds, maybe Chapter Noname has an intense rivalry bordering on open warfare with Chapter Whatsit, the origins of which all but forgotten but for a subtle hint or two.

That's a fair call. It does allow for a fairly comprehensive list of influences on the chapter. I simply haven't gotten that far yet. I like the idea of a subtly referenced rivalry here and there, perhaps a particular dislike of rebellion and dissent. Though again I'm getting a little ahead of myself. All this is good stuff though, and I'm keeping tabs on everything, waiting for the melting pot of new ideas in my head to cough up some new proposals.

And thank you Olis, for the link. I read through everything there and the depth of that particular set of events is more than I'd thought, and even has the hand-rails to make sure I don't fall into the oblivion of writing blind, though as I was referencing above, I want more to get the culture of the chapter in reference to it's homeworld down pat first. It's usually my preferred starting point. It also allows you to gauge how they'd likely react to any given event or other outside influence of the time.

These events will have some influence and impact on the chapter themselves, of course, but unless I'm going to go with a very, very early event sincerely influencing the future and character of the chapter (which I have done before, as in my unfinished Blazing Sons IA) - which I wasn't thinking of doing with these guys - their internal influences come first.

Perhaps the Ur-Terra founded chapters are one of the reasons for chapters popping up having the same name as another chapter.

I quite like this as an idea. It would be a very simple explanation for a common problem, but one that works. I just wonder what the process was for determining whether these chapters were loyal or not post conflict. Where would they have fought? Who would have trained them and what chapter (and Mechanicus leadership later) would have accepted these illigitimate offspring? Some would, but others might demand their destruction. All interesting stuff.

Though I digress, my guys don't even have a name yet!

[Dizzyeye01]

I'd say finding a name for the chapter won't be hard once you've nailed down the character of the chapter. You don't want to tie down you're chapter to a name simply because it's cool after all :)

[Ace Debonair]

By the Throne!

Welcome home, GHY!

I thought you'd been lost to warp gribblies of some kind long ago.

What sort of personality are you envisioning the average battle brother in this Chapter to have?

That's usually a good way to nail down a Chapter's character.

[NightrawenII]

Founding

10th (Whenever, not really an issue).

I've begun to think that the Founding might be one of the most important details of a Chapter.

For instance, the 10th Founding. Mid-M35 is where Lexicanum puts it, and I own its source so if you'd like me to prove it just ask.

Nova Terra Interregnum takes place in M35. Nearly half all Space Marine Foundings happen within these five hundred years, bracketed by the 10th at one end and the 21st at the other, which if I recall correctly is also soon after the end of the Interregnum.

That is an exceptional time period that we know nothing substantial about.

And it all happens during your Chapter's formative years. That's pretty dang big and relevant.

You mean the source which places 13th and 21st Foundings in the same time (= late M.35/ early M.36)? Yeah, incredibly reliable source...

The dates in Badab War books can be ignored, because from what I can tell, the ForgeWorld messed up big time in there.

@Grey Hunter Ydalir

To be honest, you are falling in one of usual traps of DIY; the focus on Homeworld instead of Chapter. People often spend much of their creative energy on the original and well-thought planet that when they are about to expand on the Chapter itself, they are simply too exhausted to continue the work...

I think you should nail down the culture/nature/character of the Chapter first and then worry about everything else. Right now, you don't have a fň written on Chapter, which is bad in my book.

In the other thread you mention "Nordic offshoots, middle eastern Hashishim and Barbary Corsairs, some Bhuddist and eastern influenced meditative - kung fu movie ish (with less cheese) - influences."

- What exactly do you mean by "nordic offshot"? Keep in mind the Normans and Rus' are nordic offshots too.

- You said, you don't want snipers lurking in high grass.. So how the religious sect of political killers ties to this?

- Barbary Corsairs? You mean slavers? And if they are raiders and pirates; whom they are robbing and enslaving?

- Buddhist I presume... You know, René Grousset believed that exposion to Buddhism was what made the rough and fierce steppe nomads weak and feeble. (The Buddhism was not the only religion which had softening effects and there were other factors, but that's besides point.) Or you are talking about Sōhei and/or Yamabushi?

~NightrawenII

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I'd say finding a name for the chapter won't be hard once you've nailed down the character of the chapter. You don't want to tie down you're chapter to a name simply because it's cool after all

This is very true Dizzy, it's what I'm mulling over right now, but a good point. I won't be agonizing over the name too soon that's for sure.

By the Throne!

Welcome home, GHY!

I thought you'd been lost to warp gribblies of some kind long ago.

What sort of personality are you envisioning the average battle brother in this Chapter to have?

That's usually a good way to nail down a Chapter's character.

Ace! I hadn't seen you post in the Liber for a while. I have lurked on occasion but only just recently got a hold of this account back, thanks to the efforts of Olis and Kurgan the Lurker.

I was almost lost to the warp (real life) and even gribblies (am about to have my first child!) but no, I'm not gone. I'm like a better version of that Mary Sue Grey Knight that everyone hates, I shan't mention his name either, for fear of angry retribution!

Or the name has just slipped my mind right now. Either or.

So, as to the character of the chapter. Well I've envisioned enough of the culture of the homeworld to leave it as it is (and I'll be addressing points made by NightrawenII in good order below), and it's going to be rather similar in some ways.

They are drawn from seafaring roots on a rather harsh water bound world. It's cold, resources are fairly scarce and the people are pragmatic and unforgiving. Perfect recruits for an Astartes chapter in other words, as usual in an IA.

The character of the chapter.... well I'd just been having various things brewing in my mind so far. I used to try and force the results out early, which is why I think a lot of my IA's went through radical changes, either as a whole or in pieces and eventually lost their way.

They are born of a harsh people. They see the universe in simple terms, His word and His actions carved the Imperium from anarchy, doing what was necessary to save and uplift Humanity. They see themselves as the tip of the spear, favored sons to bring the Emperors enemies to task. Life on [Homeworld] is usually a moment to moment affair. You live to preserve your family, your clan and everything else is disregarded like so much flotsam on the waves.

This attitude follows upwards into the chapter. They have a job to do. They are given their orders and objectives and they give their all to complete them, regardless of what is being asked. They aren't ones to go out of their way to save civilians for the sake of it as the Salamanders and Space Wolves are wont to do, but they aren't about to sacrifice them for a tactical edge as the Iron Hands and such would do.

I feel I'm rambling in the details now and am not making a concise point. It might be easier to over-simplify it for now.

A cross between the White Scars and Iron Hands somewhat. They believe that their freedom of action and purpose is given to them as chosen warriors of the Emperor, and must act as such as it is on their honour to uphold the trust they have been given.

At the same time, they view all of humanity as owing to the Emperors grand vision. They have no sympathy for those who want what the chapter feels they do not deserve. They vilify nobility and aristocracy, it has no place in their home worlds society.

They would for example, if given the choice, prefer to go to the aid of say, a Vostroyan or Armageddon Imperial Guard regiment in strife, than one made up of nobles sons.

I think a good idea would be for me to work on the Chapter Cult, nail down their 'faith' as it were, as it's usually reflective of the character of the chapter. Up to this point I'd mainly had cultural and visual touchstones for inspiration.

@Grey Hunter Ydalir

To be honest, you are falling in one of usual traps of DIY; the focus on Homeworld instead of Chapter. People often spend much of their creative energy on the original and well-thought planet that when they are about to expand on the Chapter itself, they are simply too exhausted to continue the work...

I'll freely admit it's a trap I fall in to all too often. I have a bad habit of getting lost in the details and the Homeworld for me is usually so creatively alluring that I tend to spend far too much time on it. I've simply been trying to nail down a good cultural heritage for the chapter to draw on, that seems convincing and works logically before I get too lost on it, hence why I've been asking for ideas. It's been going well so far, but it's always appreciated to warn me away from my obsessions.

I think you should nail down the culture/nature/character of the Chapter first and then worry about everything else. Right now, you don't have a fň written on Chapter, which is bad in my book.

I absolutely agree. Wholeheartedly, and it's similar to what Ace was saying as well. Take it from me, I'm going to take a hiatus from the Homeworld and work more on the personality and internal character of the chapter now, before I get lost!

In the other thread you mention "Nordic offshoots, middle eastern Hashishim and Barbary Corsairs, some Bhuddist and eastern influenced meditative - kung fu movie ish (with less cheese) - influences."

- What exactly do you mean by "nordic offshot"? Keep in mind the Normans and Rus' are nordic offshots too.

- You said, you don't want snipers lurking in high grass.. So how the religious sect of political killers ties to this?

- Barbary Corsairs? You mean slavers? And if they are raiders and pirates; whom they are robbing and enslaving?

- Buddhist I presume... You know, René Grousset believed that exposion to Buddhism was what made the rough and fierce steppe nomads weak and feeble. (The Buddhism was not the only religion which had softening effects and there were other factors, but that's besides point.) Or you are talking about Sōhei and/or Yamabushi?

Ok in fairness a lot of what I'm referencing is from older IA's, drawn from what I'd dreamed up before I got lost in the warp, as Ace so handily put it!

So to address all of your points.

When I was mentioning Nordic offshoots, (if my memory serves for that particular thread) I was talking more in broad strokes. I wanted to have a chapter of searfaring peoples from ostensibly a northern european culture, without having them appear as vikings, or norse in any regard given that the Space Wolves cover that entire area quite completely.

For the snipers in the grass, I'm not sure what you're referring to if I'm honest. I can't recall the context of which I'd have said that, unless you're talking about a discussion on 'reasonable marines', since that's a concept I want to stay firmly away from. It's something I don't agree with in terms of Astartes utility as warfighters.

Barbary Corsairs, I think I mentioned this in reference to an older chapter I created, the Corsairs Serpentis. They need a real overhaul. This chapters people are not so much barbary corsairs, no. It's more that on the open sea, once outside the influence of the larger city states it's a kill or be killed world. Some fish and practice whaling without resorting to piracy, however some do not see any issue with taking from those less worthy. There is no stigma for taking something from someone who was unprepared or unwilling to defend it.

I'd see it more as a culture of tribal feuds and small wars between different households and clans. There would be some reviled, dedicated pirates but they are hunted by all the city states and tribes regardless of feud or affiliation I think. They are the ones to keep everyone sharp. And then there are the shades of grey in between. It's the kind of culture where your word is your bond, but other than that, there are no rules.

Bhuddism has no part in this IA. However that, again, is a part of one of my older IA's.

I think good old Rene had a point, but he was misunderstanding, to my mind it softened the wilder, violent tendencies of the people. To him they lost their teeth, but I wonder if he realized what they may have been gaining, rather than just a loss.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm going to have to put things on the backburner while I work on the more immediately important parts of this IA, so I might have to rewrite some of the brief above.

Oh and finally:

Welcome back, brother! I fondly remember your Blazing Sons and hope to see them resurrected at some point, too. Oh, and I'll provide some C&C on your most recent IA a bit later on.

Dosjetka, thank you brother!

My Blazing Sons may be resurrected sometime in the future, I'm simply going to concentrate on what I've got in front of me first, and let the reworking of old material take place at a later date. I think I might work better on something somewhat fresh, rather than trying to work over what I wrote a long time ago and getting mired in what I might have been thinking then.

The Blazing Sons were quite a hit it seems, I wonder if I can recapture that lightning in a bottle, eh?

[Olis]

I see Nightrawen has also emerged from the shadows. These are auspicious times. ;)

[NightrawenII]

They vilify nobility and aristocracy, it has no place in their home worlds society.

They would for example, if given the choice, prefer to go to the aid of say, a Vostroyan or Armageddon Imperial Guard regiment in strife, than one made up of nobles sons.

I think you are contradicting yourself here.

Second, are you sure?

It's simple matter of time before stratification of society takes place. Some people or families will, thanks to skill or fortunes in trade, raid, warfare and/or politics, gain influence and riches. And since success engender success, their prestige, influence and possession will grow until they will own private armies and fleets of ships and monopolize various positions and ranks in state goverment. Pretty much nobility.

Also, you mentioned colonies and satellite-islands of great nations, these will give birth to various governors, military commanders, chieftains and what not, who will in time form rural or lesser aristocracy.

Communism doesn't work, because people. Sad truth.

When I was mentioning Nordic offshoots, (if my memory serves for that particular thread) I was talking more in broad strokes. I wanted to have a chapter of searfaring peoples from ostensibly a northern european culture, without having them appear as vikings, or norse in any regard given that the Space Wolves cover that entire area quite completely.

Saxons pre-date Vikings as seafaring raiders and settlers. There are also Scoti.

The problem here is that once archetype is estabilished, the other people who live in similar enviroment or have similar modus operandi doesn't fall far from it.

Or you could take a turn and make use of Phoenicia and/or Githzerai.

For the snipers in the grass, I'm not sure what you're referring to if I'm honest. I can't recall the context of which I'd have said that, unless you're talking about a discussion on 'reasonable marines', since that's a concept I want to stay firmly away from. It's something I don't agree with in terms of Astartes utility as warfighters.

Ehm...

They are terror weapons, with the effectiveness and equipment necessary for extreme shock and awe. They are not the snipers crawling around in the long grass waiting for one shot in a million. They have done their time in that training to gain practical knowledge and experience from that particular field, but it's not their focus. There are others to do those jobs, unless push comes to shove.

This chapters people are not so much barbary corsairs, no. It's more that on the open sea, once outside the influence of the larger city states it's a kill or be killed world. Some fish and practice whaling without resorting to piracy, however some do not see any issue with taking from those less worthy. There is no stigma for taking something from someone who was unprepared or unwilling to defend it.

I'd see it more as a culture of tribal feuds and small wars between different households and clans. There would be some reviled, dedicated pirates but they are hunted by all the city states and tribes regardless of feud or affiliation I think. They are the ones to keep everyone sharp. And then there are the shades of grey in between. It's the kind of culture where your word is your bond, but other than that, there are no rules.

Yet again, I think you are contradicting yourself here.

If there are no rules nor any sentiment towards those who can't defend themselves, why would be dedicated piracy reviled? If you are alluding to killing and pillaging for the sake of killing and pillaging then yes, otherwise I don't see problem.

Also, this "Unfortunate are those who cannot defend themselves." policy will lead to Marines Malevolent attitude. So, be warned.

+++

I see Nightrawen has also emerged from the shadows. These are auspicious times.

I have run out of souls for torture, so I'm looking for new victims.

Jokes aside. I browse this forum a lot, but rarely gather enough motivation to comment.

~ NightrawenII

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I think you are contradicting yourself here.

 

Second, are you sure?

It's simple matter of time before stratification of society takes place. Some people or families will, thanks to skill or fortunes in trade, raid, warfare and/or politics, gain influence and riches. And since success engender success, their prestige, influence and possession will grow until they will own private armies and fleets of ships and monopolize various positions and ranks in state goverment. Pretty much nobility.

Also, you mentioned colonies and satellite-islands of great nations, these will give birth to various governors, military commanders, chieftains and what not, who will in time form rural or lesser aristocracy.

Communism doesn't work, because people. Sad truth.

 

 

 

I'm sure. Mainly because the 41st millennium is not reasonable in any aspect, and neither are Space Marines.

 

I'm not talking about the vilifcation of those in authority or positions of power due to their own talents. (I'll also touch on my homeworld again in a moment), if you're gaining position and rank due to being good at your job, which in the case of Astartes tends to begin and end with warring against the enemies of the Imperium, then you're good to go.

If however you've purchased your rank and position within the Navy or Army due to influence or wealth you have not earned anything. I think, to bring it back a bit, you'd have to prove in the eyes of the Chapter that you were worthy of the position you're holding in order for them to respect you for it.

 

Coming from a homeworld with zero bureaucracy to get in the way, a petty title holder unwilling to bend to meet the needs of those who defend him is also little better.

 

No communism doesn't work, but the dedication to meritocracy within the Emperors armies is no bad thing in the eyes of the chapter.

 

 Ehm..

 

 

I'm not sure your point. Those are my personal beliefs for Astartes methods of war and they will of course bleed over into the works I create. I'm not too sure of the point you're making with this, it's pretty much what I thought you were referring to.

 

Yet again, I think you are contradicting yourself here.

If there are no rules nor any sentiment towards those who can't defend themselves, why would be dedicated piracy reviled? If you are alluding to killing and pillaging for the sake of killing and pillaging then yes, otherwise I don't see problem.

 

Also, this "Unfortunate are those who cannot defend themselves." policy will lead to Marines Malevolent attitude. So, be warned.

 

 

Ah, you're right. On the reviling piracy point you are entirely correct. I think I could clarify it somewhat. I think it's more accurate to say they take a dim view of those who plunder for the sake of it, for the enjoyment of killing and taking what isn't theirs. I'd say perhaps with the 'normal' seafarers, if they were low on their quota for their sponsored city, they'd take from those of a rival state, though they'd hold no grudges, as who is their enemy that day could be their salvation another.

 

Something similar to what you might see in a show like 'deadliest catch', where the captains and crews may even go so far as to feud with each other on land, and abuse and curse each other on the sea, but when one of them is in trouble they will still rush to their aid regardless. Sort of an unwritten code of the sea, that no matter what you will still help out your fellow man if it's the sea that's trying to consume him.

 

To be fair I might just scrap the 'honour among thieves' as I've got it right now, but I'm a little fond of it for the moment.

 

I think the Marines Malevolent are unethical, cold, unfeeling bastards. But it makes them very interesting as a chapter.

 

No I don't want to have the Marines Malevolent in another skin, but I'm not drawn to make these guys a 'touchy feely' chapter as I've been wont to do in the past. That's not who they are. They exist so that humanity can survive. If they are asked to defend civilians they will give it everything they have and more, putting themselves between the enemy and their charges because it is what is being asked of them.

 

The more I think of it, this seems pretty standard behavior of Astartes, I was about to write how they wouldn't necessarily jump to defend those same civilians if it wasn't their expressed duty, but you could be right and I might just have to re-write it a little. I know the kind of character I want here but I'm having trouble expressing it so it makes sense.

[Olis]

I see Nightrawen has also emerged from the shadows. These are auspicious times.

I have run out of souls for torture, so I'm looking for new victims.

Jokes aside. I browse this forum a lot, but rarely gather enough motivation to comment.

Aha. Well, I think seeing more of you here is only a good thing, mainly because I keep dropping the bowling ball on my foot. Nah, it's the critique you give. I think it's generally well informed and to the point. ^_^

[NightrawenII]

I'm not sure why are you so obsessed with civilians, it might be just wrong impression though, I would say figuring out the raison d'etre (real or as perceived by Chapter) is more... insightful*.

Try to list 10 traits you want this Chapter to exhibit. I found it quite helpful.

* I have invented this word on the spot. I didn't know it is actually real.

~ NightrawenII

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I'm not sure why are you so obsessed with civilians, it might be just wrong impression though, I would say figuring out the raison d'etre (real or as perceived by Chapter) is more... insightful*.

 

 

 

I'm not obsessed with civilians. We based discussion around them on a particular subject of character. In the context of a war civilians are a good example of ethical standards because they are quite literally 'non-combatants' and aren't meant to be governed by the rules of war that military men assign each other. They are the very essence of what these grim warriors are supposed to be fighting for. They are the touchstone to which soldiers and to a lesser extent law enforcement are held. They do not see the darkest of humanity because these fighters do it for them. There's a reason the term was coined 'innocent civilians'.

 

In the context of what we're talking about, the way a warrior treats those he is bound to protect and do no harm to is very telling as to what their true values are. While there are shades of grey within these confines (the needs of the many vs the needs of the few), I don't think it's a terrible thing to be using them as an example for what the chapters views are.

 

In the scope of the 40k universe, civilians are essentially a resource. They are consumed by the Imperium to keep itself afloat, quite literally a fuel source for the empire. These people do not directly fight, assist the war effort or even do so much as to put the Imperium before themselves most of the time. Humanity has by and large been reduced to the squalid, huddled masses.

 

Leaving aside Astartes recruitment worlds for a moment, why would a transhuman warrior who is psychologically and hypnotically conditioned, physically augmented and otherwise impervious to the day to day concerns of the civilian populace of the Imperium have any ability to relate or empathize with these beings that quite simply live to fuel the empire that they protect? In the real world it is hard enough for combat veterans returning to civilian life to have any sympathy for the mundane concerns and first world problems we take for granted. It was hot last night and your fan stopped working? Tragic. How about trying to get some sleep after 12 hours at the wire and then being mortared all night? It breeds a different mindset, one that is more geared to dealing with the hardships around them.

 

It takes a concerted effort and an internal culture of empathy and understanding on the part of the Chapter itself to keep hold of these genetically engineered super-soldiers. Civilians are reason enough to use as a compare to even regular soldiers because the mindset is so different.

 

Again, how someone trained for and accustomed to extreme violence and hardship treats someone that isn't is a mark of that persons character, and how much of their humanity they've managed to retain a hold of.

 

Try to list 10 traits you want this Chapter to exhibit. I found it quite helpful.

 

 

Now this is an extremely good idea. I might just go away and do this right now, if time allows. Thank you for the suggestion, I should have thought of that myself! :P

[NightrawenII]

I'm not obsessed with civilians. We based discussion around them on a particular subject of character. In the context of a war civilians are a good example of ethical standards because they are quite literally 'non-combatants' and aren't meant to be governed by the rules of war that military men assign each other. They are the very essence of what these grim warriors are supposed to be fighting for. They are the touchstone to which soldiers and to a lesser extent law enforcement are held. They do not see the darkest of humanity because these fighters do it for them. There's a reason the term was coined 'innocent civilians'.

Yes and No.

I'm not sure who said it or where I read it, but it was proposed that in Total War, a war the Imperium surely is at, there are not 'innocent civilians'. True, they are non-combatants, but who is manufacturing all these weapons, ammunition and war equipment? Yes, the same civilans. So while they are not direct participants, they are still involved and not really a innocent bystanders caught in storm.

In the context of what we're talking about, the way a warrior treats those he is bound to protect and do no harm to is very telling as to what their true values are.

... why would a transhuman warrior ... have any ability to relate or empathize with these beings that quite simply live to fuel the empire that they protect.

Are they?

Several, most likely all fleet-based, Chapters* were created "... to seek, locate and destroy the enemies of man". Considering the protection is not their purpose nor part of their duties, it's most likely they will be largely unconcerned and indifferent towards the masses of Imperium.

I don't disagree with you argument here, mind you. Quite contrary, I agree on the points you raised. However, I don't think it's correct to automatically asume that all Chapters are created or concerned with 'defensive measures' so to speak.

* Chapters in question: Angels of Vengeance, Marines Errant, Space Sharks, Executioners... I'm not sure whether I should list the Star Phantoms and Minotaurs here since they are a oddballs.

Again, how someone trained for and accustomed to extreme violence and hardship treats someone that isn't is a mark of that persons character, and how much of their humanity they've managed to retain a hold of.

Well, my thoughts on the matter are summed:

“You give up your humanity that the citizens of the Imperium may keep theirs. Pity or despise them, but never expect them to understand.”

~ Apothecary Bharan, Adeptus Astartes Death Spectres

Now this is an extremely good idea. I might just go away and do this right now, if time allows. Thank you for the suggestion, I should have thought of that myself!

It's not mine, but be my guest.

~ NightrawenII