short question about jinking

[Knight Angels]

You have to declare to jink before any to-hit dice roll. What if a bike unit gets shot by blast weapon and it scatters onto another bike unit that couldnt declare to jink? Can they still jink or is just the armor save possible?

Thanks for the clarification

[Carlson793]

The targeted unit can jink, even though the attack doesn't hit (and gains all benefits/hindrances from jinking until the start of their next Movement phase). The non-targeted unit, however, cannot jink, and has to rely on saves other than the cover save gained from a jink (they can, however, have a cover save from a source other than the jink SR).

[ValourousHeart]

What Carlson has discribed is how most people and tournaments interpret the rules.

 

Although blast templates get to ignore a lot of targeting rules, the BRB never explicitly gives them ignore jink, so at best this is simply a consensus of the community (otherwise known as a house rule).

 

What the rules do state is that blast templates do not follow the normal targeting rules.... But some how this is perverted into a belief that blast weapons don't target units.

 

A cleaner understanding of what is happening is that blast weapons use a different targeting method, and that the targeted unit is determined by rolling the scatter dice.

 

The confusion arises due to jink requiring to be declared prior to any to hit dice being rolled. And then assuming that rolling scatter and rolling to hit are the same thing. Probably because the scatter dice has a cross on it that is called a hit.

 

But rolling scatter and rolling to hit are 2 different mechanics explained clearly in the rules.

 

All of this confusion stems from the community's tendency to speed roll dice, and skip steps in the rules to speed up game play, but in doing so they give unintended advantages and disadvantages to certain rules, units and play styles.

 

This is just one example.

[Harleqvin]

What Carlson has discribed is how most people and tournaments interpret the rules.

Although blast templates get to ignore a lot of targeting rules, the BRB never explicitly gives them ignore jink, so at best this is simply a consensus of the community (otherwise known as a house rule).

What the rules do state is that blast templates do not follow the normal targeting rules.... But some how this is perverted into a belief that blast weapons don't target units.

A cleaner understanding of what is happening is that blast weapons use a different targeting method, and that the targeted unit is determined by rolling the scatter dice.

The confusion arises due to jink requiring to be declared prior to any to hit dice being rolled. And then assuming that rolling scatter and rolling to hit are the same thing. Probably because the scatter dice has a cross on it that is called a hit.

But rolling scatter and rolling to hit are 2 different mechanics explained clearly in the rules.

All of this confusion stems from the community's tendency to speed roll dice, and skip steps in the rules to speed up game play, but in doing so they give unintended advantages and disadvantages to certain rules, units and play styles.

This is just one example.

Actually it's not a consensus the players go by. The rules for jinking state when the unit with Jink is the target of the shooting attack. The unit that has the blast weapon still "Targets" a specific unit with it's attack, it can just deviate. So it would need to be the target of the shooting attack for it to even have a chance to jink.

and this should be on the Official Rules section. lqtm

[DarkAngeal]

Consider this: a unit can only target one other unit per shooting phase.

Are you required to fire all blast weapons first in order to determine your final target? No. You choose 1 target and then cycle through the available weapons in the unit.

[Master Ciaphas]

I had a game Sunday, where this exact question came up. I had a squadron of Black Knights and Ravenwing bikers locked in combat with an armoured sentinel; right behind, unengaged, was a Darkshroud. 

 

My opponent had a Leman Russ MBT, which dearly wanted to shoot at the bikers and Black Knights, but as they were locked in combat, he could not target them, choosing instead to target the Darkshroud, hoping that it would scatter into the combat and kill a truckload of bikers.

 

We discussed whether the bikers would be able to jink or not, in case it scattered onto them. We came to the conclusion, based on the BBB rule for "Jink", that the process it thus:

 

1) Choose target

2) Decide whether the target wants to jink

3) Roll dice (scatter or d6 to hit)

4) If it scatters onto a unit that was not the target: tough. The new target "eats" it, but cannot jink.

 

...in this case, fortunately, the shot scattered in the wrong direction, the bikes and Black Knights annihilated the Sentinel, and proceed from there to kill the offending Leman Russ and the rest of the heretical Astra Militarum army. Justice for all, I say :-)

 

Regards,

Master Ciaphas

[ValourousHeart]

Well what we do know is that the BRB DOES say that "blast weapons do not target units with the normal method"

 

We also know that the BRB DOES NOT say "blast weapons ignore jink when they scatter". That phrase ISN'T written in the BRB.

 

You also CAN'T point to a section of the BRB that explains clearly how jink and scatter interact.

 

To acheve that understanding you have to read a half a dozen passages out of context with the understanding that you are looking to prove that scatter ignores jink.

 

Shouldn't you be reading to understand how the rule works... Not to prove your interpretation?

[Master Ciaphas]

I am reading the rule, friend. I stated the sequence of events as they are written in the rulebook. There is nothing left to debate, IMHO. You can jink if targeted by a shooting attack. That is written under the Jink rule, and is not subject to further interpretation. A blast will only scatter after you have selected a target - and that is after you have chosen to jink or not. So, I am not saying that blast ignores jink. I am saying, supported by the rules, that you jink when targeted, and that scatter happen after target has been selected. 

[jbaeza94]

VH

you cannot point out a spot in the BRB that states you can jink against a blast weapon.

To jink, you need to declare it before any to hit rolls are made. but surprise, blast weapon clearly states a blast weapon does not roll to hit.

"The decision must be made before any To Hit rolls have been made"

"When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit."

So yes, I just pointed out where it clearly states a model cannot jink against a blast weapon without needing to look at more than 2 rules. RAW, this is what it says. Also, in the jink rule it clearly states,

"When a unit with any model with the Jink special rule is selected as a target for a shooting attack, you may declare that it will Jink"

The Blast rule states,

"Instead, just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the 3" blast marker over the base of the model"

So tell me, at what point does the blast weapon target the unit? RAW, it never does. It might as well be a Focused Witchfire, since you are clearly selecting one model specifically.

 

So in the unlikely chance that it scatters over to another unit, at what point was that model ever selected as a target, and when was the roll to hit made against it? RAW, it never is. First of all, you selected a very specific model in a different unit to fire at, and second, you never even rolled To Hit.

 

So, please, with the BRB, where does it state that you can jink if it scatters on to you, because I just showed you where it states it cant without taking anything out of context, or looking through multiple rules to justify it. I simply read my BRB.

 

Now that's RAW. Lets look at RAI.

 

Targeting with blast: I say when you select the model to fire at, you target its unit as well. that is the person you are intentionally shooting at, its your intended target.

Roll to hit: I believe when you roll the scatter dice, you are "rolling to hit". as the BRB states "the large area affected by blast is going to be hard to completely miss", so its a lot easier to hit someone than say with a bullet.

Jinking: if you accept the top two, then you can jink. First, it is targeted, because that's who I'm aiming at. You would declare a jink before the scatter dice are rolled, since that's a pseudo to hit roll.     When it scatters to a different unit, as the brb states "this represents the chance of ricochets, the missile blasting through cover, and other random events". essentially, accidents. you never intended to shoot at them. so they are never the "target" of the attack. this disqualifies them from jinking.

 

edit:grammar

[ValourousHeart]

Like I said in my very first post, the way you play it is the consensus.

However, just because there is consensus, doesn't make it correct or infallible.

 

Also just because the BRB says that it is unlikely for a blast templates to miss completely doesn't make that statistically accurate.

 

The blast weapon rules are far less accurate than any other shooting.

And this interpretation of the rules gives blasts more of an advantage when they miss than they get when they hit.

[jbaeza94]

I really don't see the issue with the so called "consensus". Like what is incorrect, please tell me. I just proved with RAW that you cannot jink if it scatters on to different unit. It's not a consensus, you're just trying to make the rules your own.

 

I agree the jink ignore is an advantage. But the likelihood of it scattering onto another unit is so minuscule that it is irrelevant. Does it happen? Yes, but that is not enough reason to try to change the rules.

Like I said, show me with RAW that you can take the jink,as I have shown you with RAW that it is simply not allowed.

[GruntAngel]

I think I asked the damn question before but I managed to forget the answer: what happen when a unit ignore jink? You can't jink at all or if they managed to hit you will still manage to touch no matter what?

 

Unit exemple: Dark Reapers

[Carlson793]

Rules like Reaper Rangefinder (Dark Reapers) and Rapid Tracking (Sicaran Tank) do not prevent you from declaring a Jink. They do, however, prevent you from using the cover save gained from Jink against that shot. In other words, I declare the shot, you Jink, you gain the penalties for Jinking (Snap Shooting), I shoot and hit, and you do not get to use the cover save gained from Jink (non-Jink cover saves, however, are still an option).

[Harleqvin]

 

Well what we do know is that the BRB DOES say that "blast weapons do not target units with the normal method"

 

We also know that the BRB DOES NOT say "blast weapons ignore jink when they scatter". That phrase ISN'T written in the BRB.

 

You also CAN'T point to a section of the BRB that explains clearly how jink and scatter interact.

 

To acheve that understanding you have to read a half a dozen passages out of context with the understanding that you are looking to prove that scatter ignores jink.

 

Shouldn't you be reading to understand how the rule works... Not to prove your interpretation?

You have to "target a unit" with shooting attacks before you do any rolling of any dice or placing markers/templates. and in addition to that when you firsdt put down a blast marker it states "Target model" because you first have to target before you do scatter roll for who ends up getting hit by it.

It's all a part of the rules for shooting (and the rule for blast about the part of "target model".).

then in Jink it states the "unit/model targeted". not the "units/models hit by the attack"

So yes. You can as it is in the rulebook on how you do shooting.

 

 

So to reiterate. Just because a model is "hit with a blast marker" it does not make it the "targeted unit".

To be able to use "Jink" you must be the "Target of the shooting attack"

So no. It's not a consensus. It's the rules.

If unit A is the target of the shooting attack by the attacking unit and the blast deviates to unit B. Unit B will not be able to make use of Jink as they are not the target of the shooting attack.

 

 

Edit totally misread the post I quoted that was with the original edit. lol. everything before the word Edit is the original posting.

[jbaeza94]

I edited this but can't delete.

Yes I agree with you. For the RAW, I was taking the most literal reading of the rules, the big one is the "to hit" roll, to make a point. But like I said though, the targeted unit can jink, the one that was scattered can't. That's the big take from it.

 

Edit. Lol seems like you edited your post while I was replying. This made me chuckle when I went to go see the message again and saw your quoted message. No sarcasm, honest laughter

[Harleqvin]

 

I edited this but can't delete.

 

Yes I agree with you. For the RAW, I was taking the most literal reading of the rules, the big one is the "to hit" roll, to make a point. But like I said though, the targeted unit can jink, the one that was scattered can't. That's the big take from it.

 

100% correct.

Gotta love that "Shooting Sequence" on page 30 of the BRB.

[BlackTriton]

Although I agree that the rule as written says that a unit cannot declare a jink without being the intended target of a shooting attack, I think a better written rule would state that any unit can declared to be jinking when the enemy declare a shooting attack, before any dice are rolled.

 

keep in mind that a unit that is already declared to be jinking before being caught in a scattered blast aimed at a different unit would get its jink save since the cover bonus is stated to last until the start of their next movement phase. 

 

This quirk of the rules mean that there is a definitive order of operation in the shooting phase, when playing against jinking armies with blast weapon; you should use the blast weapon before any other in case it scatters over a unintended target an thus potentially negate a cover save.

 

I personally do not care much for unnecessary order of operation and would allow my opponent to declare jink with any number of unit as I declare a shooting attack, but i understand that doing so is breaking the rules. I would not however allow a jinking save to a unit that did not declare it before the scatter dice roll.

[Harleqvin]

The difference is though they can't jink if they weren't the target. If they had already "jink"ed that turn then they would get the cover save from it.
But to reiterate. THEY CAN NOT JINK UNLESS THEY ARE THE TARGET OF THE SHOOTING ATTACK

Doesn't matter if they can continue to use the cover save, as to the rule says they have that until the start of their next movement phase.
If they hadn't already jinked. Then guess what? They can't "JINK" if the blast deviates onto them if they weren't the targeted unit.
It's all in the rules.

and your allowing to Jink for a unit that didn't jink previously that got a blast deviated on it would be a house rule. Also fine. We aren't talking about house rules. We are talking about the actual rules.

[BlackTriton]

You seem to be in high spirit brother,

 

and your allowing to Jink for a unit that didn't jink previously that got a blast deviated on it would be a house rule. Also fine. We aren't talking about house rules. We are talking about the actual rules.

I specifically said I would not allow that. Rather that any unit could be allow to jink every time a shooting attack is declared, in this case if my opponent want to jink a unit that is not even the target, just because the blast may scatter over it, why not? feel free to snap fire all you want. but once the dice are set and we know where it scattered to, its too late.

 

PLS note that am not arguing against you, your interpretation of the rules are flawless in this matter. This should be blindingly obvious to anyone reading carefully page 167 in conjunction to page 30.

once the fact are accepted we can begin to have a constructive discussion of what the rules should have stated and maybe all have a better time by incorporating it in our game.

Maybe this was not the best place to have this discussion.

[Interrogator Stobz]

++Correct++  ;)

[Harleqvin]

You seem to be in high spirit brother,

 

and your allowing to Jink for a unit that didn't jink previously that got a blast deviated on it would be a house rule. Also fine. We aren't talking about house rules. We are talking about the actual rules.

I specifically said I would not allow that. Rather that any unit could be allow to jink every time a shooting attack is declared, in this case if my opponent want to jink a unit that is not even the target, just because the blast may scatter over it, why not? feel free to snap fire all you want. but once the dice are set and we know where it scattered to, its too late.

 

PLS note that am not arguing against you, your interpretation of the rules are flawless in this matter. This should be blindingly obvious to anyone reading carefully page 167 in conjunction to page 30.

once the fact are accepted we can begin to have a constructive discussion of what the rules should have stated and maybe all have a better time by incorporating it in our game.

Maybe this was not the best place to have this discussion.

 

I had somehow read " I personally do not care much for unnecessary order of operation and would allow my opponent to declare jink with any number of unit as I declare a shooting attack, but i understand that doing so is breaking the rules. I would not however allow a jinking save to a unit that did not declare it before the scatter dice roll. " as you saying you would allow a unit that had not "Jink"ed prior in the shooting phase that had a blast marker deviate onto it, when it wasn't the target, to be able to jink. I added context that wasn't there.

 

My apologies on that whole thing, mate!

But the reason why according to the rules allowing a unit not targeted to jink shouldn't work is, it would be that it wasn't the target. Just because you had a blast weapon hit a model/unit doesn't make that model/unit the target of the attack.

But yeah, you can always decide a rule can be done differently if both you and your opponent(s) want to do so.

 

Once again, my apologies for that!

[ValourousHeart]

Like I said from the beginning... The way everyone plays the rules is that you can only Jink if a blast weapon HITS.

 

Right or Wrong... It still doesn't make sense to me that a weapon would be more effective when it MISSES, in a game where everyother rules is based on positive things happening with successful rolls. Maybe it is just me, but I don't get the concept of rewarding failure.

 

Imagine if the next codex that came out had a gun that does 1 wound when it hits (3+ or 4+ or whatever their BS called for). But if you miss (rolled a 1 or 2 on the TO HIT roll) it does 10 wounds. Sure it would be the rules... But it still wouldn't make sense. Now imagine that it was an Ork weapon... 5+ does 1 wound, 1-4 does 10 wounds. The meta would change as every Ork player would start using that weapon.

 

You are taking a basic mechanic of the game and turning it on it's head. So the most favorable result in most situations is rolling a successful HIT. But with blast weapons the most favorable result is failing to HIT. And I find that counterintuitive to the rest of the rules.

 

You all are also saying that I am worrying over nothing, that you are more likely to HIT, so counting on MISSING is highly unlikely. That is because you are probably calculating the chance to roll a specific direction and distance with scatter. But I'm not talking about hitting a specific target... I am just pointing out that the shot is more damaging if it lands on ANYTHING else other than the targeted unit.

 

There are 2 HIT symbols and 4 MISS symbols on the scatter die... Which is 1/3 chance to HIT and 2/3 chance to MISS. Then you factor in the 2d6 scatter distance. That gives us 3 x 6 x 6 = 108 different combination that you then subtract the BS score from.

 

As far as I know the highest BS with access to a blast weapon is BS5.

BS5 has a 52% chance to HIT

BS4 has a 44% chance to HIT

BS3 has a 39% chance to HIT

BS2 has a 35% chance to HIT

BS0 has a 33% chance to HIT

 

That means that in the example above with the bikes vs the Leman Russ, the shot will scatter 61% of time. Sure you can't control which direction the scatter goes... But you can increase your chance that it will scatter into SOMETHING by thoughtful placement of the template so that there are targets at most of the clock face points.

 

Results... A small chance to roll a HIT which affects 1 unit, and that unit has the highest likelihood to survive. A higher chance to roll a MISS which affects 2 units, one is limited on it's responses next turn because of Jink, and the other has a lower likelihood to survive.

[jbaeza94]

Made a few errors. They should be fixed now.

 

First is probability of a hit (1/3) next is probability of equal to or less than your bs. Probability in the case of scatter dice is

(1/3)+(possible outcomes/36)-((1/3)(outcomes/36))

So for example bs5. There are 10 possible combinations that give you a 5 or less.

(1/3)+(10/36)-((1/3)(10/36))=.52

bs5 52% to hit

Bs4 44% to hit

Bs3 39% to hit

Bs2 35% to hit

You have unit 0 and unit X,let's say 4 inches away, I feel this reasonable and likely in a game. I'm gonna try to draw 2 squads using 0 and x. Hopefully it'll translate OK in the end.

 

0 X

0 0 0 X X X

0 0 X X

0 0 X x

 

I hope it looks OK (edit: it didn't work out quite like I hoped). Essentially it's 2 parallel 8 man squads in 1 possible placement. Let's say you want to hit squad X but your targeting squad 0. I guess we can use the leman as an example. I'm assuming ws3 large blast? I'll do both blast types. We will assume the squads are 4 inches wide (this is to simulate a shot potentially scattering way too much.) According to the rules the center hole has to be over a specific model. We'll go with the right most 0. This gives us a 2.5 inch overhang with large blast and 1.5 inch with small blast.

large blast first.

We need 2 inches of scatter to hit squad X. This gives us a 44% of not scattering enough distance to reach the next squad over(4 or less on the dice).

Small blast

this requires 3 inches to reach the other squad. So 52% chance it won't scatter enough.

Scatter die arrow

The odds of direct hits are already factored in above so I won't go over it.

We'll use whole numbers for the degrees of scatter. You need a very specific arc to scatter on to X or 0. I feel 50° is pretty reasonable. That means 14% of the time, it'll scatter in this desirable direction.

Totals

this time we do multiply since it's the probability of this AND that.

Large blast

(2/3)(30/36) desirable scatter × (50/360) desirable arc

8%

small blast

(2/3)(26/36)(50/360)

7%

 

These are the results in a vacuum, giving the best possible chance for the other squad to be hit. In reality it is much lower since not the whole squad is 4 inches away, there is area where the unit would not get hit regardless if it scattered in its direction because it would overshoot. You say you are more likely to miss. Let's do a quick scenario. Bs3, large and small blast. You target the centerman. Let's assume the furthest model in any direction is 2 inches from him.

Large blast

You need 5 inches of scatter to completely miss the squad. So 7 or lower hit. Any direction of scatter is desirable since any model is 2 inches away in any direction.

((1÷3)+(21/36)-((1/3)(21/36)))x(360/360)

72% it will hit at least one model in the squad.

Small blast

You need 4 inches of scatter to miss, so 6 or less to hit

((1/3)+(15/36))×1

61%

 

Even not counting on the direction of scatter, actually aiming at the squad is provides a higher probability than scattering enough to hit another squad.

72% vs 56%

61% vs 48%

But that's ignoring the HUGE factor that is the scatter arrow.

This last scenario is large blast Bs3. We need 2 inches of scatter, we're going to calculate the probability of hitting both units. This means we need a 5. I'll keep the original 50° arc. I'll also use a more realistic 10° arc since it has to scatter a very specific direction to be able to just hit both models.

(2/3)×(4÷36)×(50/360)=1%

(2/3)×(4÷36)×(10/360)=0.2%

 

The math is there. You are not more likely to hit another squad than your own, even with a Bs3 large blast. Your calculations were also misleading. Just because you scatter doesn't mean you miss. It doesn't even mean you scatter completely off. I even gave math to prove it.i even showed the likelihood of hitting 2 squads that are only 4 inches with a large blast disk.

The math does not support your claims.

 

And no. Nobody plays you jink only if it hits. You decide to jink before you roll your to hits. What you said is broken. Choosing to jink after I hit gives an advantage because what if I get that 25% chance and miss? You get to fire full bs skill. You must declare jink before any to hit rolls are made.

 

Edit: OK I fixed my mathematical errors. It's all good now

[Harleqvin]

The real issue here is that you can "jink" from a blast weapon when you are the target of the shooting. If the blast deviates onto a unit that's not the target they can't "jink" but if they had already "Jink" from being targeted from a different shooting attack they can benefit from the cover save offered from that prior Jink as the cover save given from jink stays till their next movement phase.

The Question has been answered as per the rules. I think this thread needs to be locked by a Mod. This isn't a thread about what house rule you want to use.

[ValourousHeart]

@ JBaeza94,

 

This probably isn't the place for explaining this math lesson. Perhaps you would be willing to do this via email or PM.

 

I admit that I don't understand how you came up with the equation you used. I just simply took the long form and wrote out every combination that could possibly be rolled using a D3 and 2D6, after all there are only 108 possible combinations. That is 36 possibilities that roll a HIT and 72 possibilities that roll MISS with 2 sets of 2d6. Then for my percentages I took the successful solutions / total solutions. You might laugh... But I'm looking at all the possible combinations and there are 56 combinations that move zero when firing with BS5. 56/108 = 52%

 

I am not surprised that the long method and your short cut came up with different results as that is typically the case where the short cut provides a 'good enough' answer. But I am surpised that the results weren't closer. But like I said, I am curious as to how you came up with your equations and would like to discuss this in a more appropriate setting if you are willing.

 

Also I never claimed that you only get to Jink if you roll a hit on the scatter dice. What I said is that you only get to Jink if the unit that was under the template before scatter is the same as the unit under the template after scatter.... I.E. You HIT the unit you Targeted. And there are some people that I play against that claim it is just the unit targeted (under the hole) even if there are multiple units under the template to begin with.

 

Imagine that battle cannon covering all 3 members of 1 bike squad... But the blast marker is also touching a land speeder and a bike from another squad. You Jink. A direct hit is rolled. Do the speeder and the bike from squad B get to Jink? It can be argued that all 5 models were targeted as the blast marker was covering all of them. But it also flies in the face of the targeting rules because a single shot is targeting multiple units. We know they are going to be hit if the shot doesn't scatter, so shouldn't they be able to respond?

 

Now I do understand that the point I am trying to get across is confusing because of the meaning of the words hit and miss and how they have multiple meanings in this instance. A blast template can hit a unit that it wasn't targeting... Which is the result of rolling a MISS on the scatter dice. It missed its intended target, and hit something else. But we can use your example of the 2 units 4 inches apart.

 

Let's say that both are RW bike squads (A&B).... And one is shot at by a Leman Russ. If the shot HITs unit A, they could have used Jink and had a decent chance to survive. If the shot MISSES unit A and scatters over to hit unit B, that unit does not get to Jink and does not get armor, so any wounds are removed as casualties. So my point is that this battle cannon shot is more effective if it scatters to a different unit than it is if it hits the intended target. Or in short is more effective if it misses than if it hits. It doesn't have to completely miss the original target, it just simply has to deviate enough to include a new potential casualty that was not originally a target.

 

And that increased effectiveness is not explicitly granted by the rules. It is inferred. And when something is inferred, it is usually done so by opinion, or interpretation.