When the Khan jabs that Fulgrim does strange things

[b1soul]

...to his men in Scars

 

I'm assuming it's a reference to surgery, enhancements Fabius-style, that sort of thing

 

I've heard theories shall we say...carnal in nature. What's your take?

[hopkins]

Makes them listen to Marilyn Manson

[rendingon1+]

I'm bit confused about timeline. I'm not sure how Khan would have known about Fabius' experiments on EC (I think he refers to them) but if I'm not wrong, Fulgrim gave his permission to 'strange things' after Horus became a Warmaster. And this talk takes place on Ullanor. Unless he meant other...strange...things...

[Sandlemad]

I took it to mean something about Fabius's work as well. There was a short story about him which shows he was doing some weird stuff from before the legion's reunification with Fulgrim and considering the EC had more prominent apothecaries than the other legions as well as the known obsession with genetic purity, it's not impossible that some rumours had reached the ears of the other primarchs. Prospero Burns shows that they spied on each other at least a little.

 

That said, I heard somewhere (maybe in one of the weekender threads from last year?) that Wright confirmed it was carnal in nature, basically a crude gay joke. Which does fit with the Khan's casual cruelty but it's disappointing nonetheless if true.

[b1soul]

That said, I heard somewhere (maybe in one of the weekender threads from last year?) that Wright confirmed it was carnal in nature, basically a crude gay joke. Which does fit with the Khan's casual cruelty but it's disappointing nonetheless if true.

That would be rather silly if true

 

I would not be "offended"...just surprised at the silliness

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

I don't think confirming it's carnal in nature necessarily equates to a gay joke. Separate yourself from our 21st century lens for a minute and consider that the Astartes viewpoint in the far future is a remarkably sexless one; it could just be the suggestion of sexual practices full stop (not specific sexual preferences) that the Khan found risible.

 

It would fit with the monastic, asexual theme of the Astartes, at least in my personal view. I fully expect this to get shot down in flames, but surely it's worth considering.

 

edit: to clarify - it could be the concept of sex, full stop, the Khan found worthy of contempt - whether it was heterosexual or homosexual in practice may have been beside the point.

[rendingon1+]

No matter what Khan meant, he humilated Fulgrim and that counts for me :)

[Sandlemad]

I don't think confirming it's carnal in nature necessarily equates to a gay joke. Separate yourself from our 21st century lens for a minute and consider that the Astartes viewpoint in the far future is a remarkably sexless one; it could just be the suggestion of sexual practices full stop (not specific sexual preferences) that the Khan found risible.

 

It would fit with the monastic, asexual theme of the Astartes, at least in my personal view. I fully expect this to get shot down in flames, but surely it's worth considering.

 

edit: to clarify - it could be the concept of sex, full stop, the Khan found worthy of contempt - whether it was heterosexual or homosexual in practice may have been beside the point.

 

That's an appropriate take on it but considering that a lot of the other stuff people insult Fulgrim with - he's effete, prim, vain, hysterical - are in other contexts frequently used as a coded way of saying 'lol X is gay, X is not a real man', I think it's not a huge overreaction to be a bit concerned.

 

Again, I don't know if Wright actually meant it that way - I prefer your version! - but it just jolted me out the book a bit when I encountered it. Like the awful stereotypical Chinese accent Graham McNeil gave Yesugei in A Thousand Sons, which Wright managed to dig into and fix in Scars.

[HeritorA]

Chris Wraight, Guy Haley, Rob Sanders - new headliners for the finish line in Horus Heresy. 'The Path of Heaven' would be amazing!

[DarKnight]

Can Primarchs haz ze sex? Either way he's probably poking fun at them just being effeminate pretty boys as opposed to the IX Legion, who while being pretty boys, turn into blood thirsty psychopaths during assaults.

[veterannoob]

Can Primarchs haz ze sex? Either way he's probably poking fun at them just being effeminate pretty boys as opposed to the IX Legion, who while being pretty boys, turn into blood thirsty psychopaths during assaults.

This topic is danced around a lot. There's a funny video re: Grey Knights and the who package situation.

+++ Deleted Youtube link+++

Please remember this is a family friendly forum. Please keep the subject matter appropriate for all audiences. Thank you. - Prot.

We get mixed signals. Of the authors I've interviewed two said they believed SMs to be eunuchs and a subtle simple castration occurs during the who enhancement. But then in 2006, so maybe it's changed by now, Horus Rising starts early with a remembrancer saying (iirc), "those astartes are bigger everywhere that makes a man." (or something like it but I read that as yeah, everything's bigger in Texas, I mean, The Imperium!

[Petitioner's City]

Can Primarchs haz ze sex? Either way he's probably poking fun at them just being effeminate pretty boys as opposed to the IX Legion, who while being pretty boys, turn into blood thirsty psychopaths during assaults.

 

But this is homophobic - there shouldn't be a place for it in 40K (or 40k lit) anymore. 

[Rob P]

I don't even remember the relevant quote, but if the Khan was making a gay joke, I don't agree that 'there shouldn't be a place for it in 40k'. The author isn't making a political statement and what characters do in-universe can only enrich the universe. If The Khan has undertones of being homophobic then that can only help to refine his character.

 

I like the idea of characters having positive and negative characteristics.

 

In 30k a lot of the killing just flies along and the relevance of whether it's good or bad killing is who is doing it and why (primarily betrayal = bad). It's nice to have some other stuff to make you think I like this about x and this less so.

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Can Primarchs haz ze sex? Either way he's probably poking fun at them just being effeminate pretty boys as opposed to the IX Legion, who while being pretty boys, turn into blood thirsty psychopaths during assaults.

But this is homophobic - there shouldn't be a place for it in 40K (or 40k lit) anymore.

Because 30k and 40k are clearly enlightened societies without prejudice. Lol.

 

I have a feeling that jokes will not change until humanity dies.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

Can Primarchs haz ze sex? Either way he's probably poking fun at them just being effeminate pretty boys as opposed to the IX Legion, who while being pretty boys, turn into blood thirsty psychopaths during assaults.

 

But this is homophobic - there shouldn't be a place for it in 40K (or 40k lit) anymore. 

 

You could argue 40k literature on grounds of PC but no way in hell will you ever be able to argue the setting. 

[karden00]

 

Can Primarchs haz ze sex? Either way he's probably poking fun at them just being effeminate pretty boys as opposed to the IX Legion, who while being pretty boys, turn into blood thirsty psychopaths during assaults.

 

But this is homophobic - there shouldn't be a place for it in 40K (or 40k lit) anymore. 

 

One can certainly take it as homophobic, but in my opinion there is a much darker element to it. 

 

Is it stranger to 'do strange things' to someone of the same gender/sex (certainly largely irrelevant to an Astartes) or is it stranger to 'do strange things' to someone who is in this cultural context (space marines) basically a son? 

 

My take on this has always been a sexual overtone at play. But its clever because in the context of the EC, because we the audience know that the EC will go on to do very strange things indeed to themselves and eachother, even if the Khan doesnt/cant. 

[b1soul]

But its clever because in the context of the EC, because we the audience know that the EC will go on to do very strange things indeed to themselves and eachother, even if the Khan doesnt/cant.

 

"even if the Khan doesn't/can't"

 

Is that right?

[karden00]

 

But its clever because in the context of the EC, because we the audience know that the EC will go on to do very strange things indeed to themselves and eachother, even if the Khan doesnt/cant.

"even if the Khan doesn't/can't"

 

Is that right?

 

Sorry, that was unclear of me. I meant that The Khan couldnt know about the strange/Chaos/Slaaneshi type things that the EC would later do to themselves by the end of Fulgrim/ Angel Exterminatus, simply because they hadn't happened by the time of that little exchange where The Khan makes his little quip. 

[Marshal Rohr]

LG on TFE said it's not a gay joke, and has a a tie to some of the rumors going around.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

LG on TFE said it's not a gay joke, and has a a tie to some of the rumors going around.

 

any link to put down a poor fan theory?

[Marshal Rohr]

It was a while back :( somewhere in the Scars thread I believe.

[veterannoob]

Can Primarchs haz ze sex? Either way he's probably poking fun at them just being effeminate pretty boys as opposed to the IX Legion, who while being pretty boys, turn into blood thirsty psychopaths during assaults.

This topic is danced around a lot. There's a funny video re: Grey Knights and the who package situation.

+++ Deleted Youtube link+++

Please remember this is a family friendly forum. Please keep the subject matter appropriate for all audiences. Thank you. - Prot.

We get mixed signals. Of the authors I've interviewed two said they believed SMs to be eunuchs and a subtle simple castration occurs during the who enhancement. But then in 2006, so maybe it's changed by now, Horus Rising starts early with a remembrancer saying (iirc), "those astartes are bigger everywhere that makes a man." (or something like it but I read that as yeah, everything's bigger in Texas, I mean, The Imperium!

OMG so sorry, mod, that didn't even occur to me. Apologies.

[veterannoob]

LG on TFE said it's not a gay joke, and has a a tie to some of the rumors going around.

I didn't even pick up any homosexual overtones here until this post came up but I still personally don't see it that way. The demigod brothers pick fun at each other as do normal Astartes. Read it as weakness, coward, wimp, or just plain incompetence. Ex. Lucius pomp and fear of (for a time at least) marring his beautiful face:)

I asked Graham McNeill in an interview at Adepticon 2014 about writing the gay characters in Thousand Sons and he said it was not planned, it just worked out and made sense that way. Same thing interviewing other authors about representing "types" from gay, to handicapped, obesity, and such. Apparently there's a so-far-unanswered guess about a character from Eisenhorn, so I need to go back and finish that trilogy eventually to see what they're talking about...plus it's great I hear.

Just reminded me of tweet I remember seeing from ADB a few years back where someone said "ADB's book has a gay in it!" to which ADB replied "oh internet, don't ever change."

[Petitioner's City]

I don't even remember the relevant quote, but if the Khan was making a gay joke, I don't agree that 'there shouldn't be a place for it in 40k'. The author isn't making a political statement and what characters do in-universe can only enrich the universe. If The Khan has undertones of being homophobic then that can only help to refine his character.

I like the idea of characters having positive and negative characteristics.

In 30k a lot of the killing just flies along and the relevance of whether it's good or bad killing is who is doing it and why (primarily betrayal = bad). It's nice to have some other stuff to make you think I like this about x and this less so.

I do agree with making characters complicated; the problem is that there is little-to-no positive LGBT representation in 40k, so it is problematic that the only queer culture in-universe is really the ECs whose 'pinkness' and sometimes effeminate aspects are mocked, rather than explored. Perhaps Wraight didn't mean the Khagan to be refering to sexual practice, perhaps he did - it is very exciting if he was, since it complicates and adds to how we can play with or fantasise about our toys

My problem is that it is perhaps the sole reference to non-heteronormativity and it's an insult - that's the potential homophobia not in-world, but in the range at large. It would be fine if there was many more normalised representations to balance to this. i know I am concerned with issues of representation, including gender, race and indeed sexuality. I guess I hope that 40k just embraces queer culture as just existing and moving on, with references to same sex partners, same sex attraction, gender changes, children of two men/women, etc, without focusing on them as something kinky or indeed odd, just part of what people do - in much the same way that more and more gender equality and people of colour have been added to 30/40k - the Thousand Sons and Word Bearers have dark skin, the Alpha legion to an extent too, the many black Ultramarines and World Eaters, etc. Really there is no reason for people to be homophobic in the setting, since Imperial culture is not based on sexual moral mores. Please correct me if I am wrong and there are many lgbt people in the setting!

EDIT: I guess my ideal is how this is handled in Treklit (Star Trek tie-in fiction, which includes other work by James Swallow), although at first revolutionary and focused on, since the mid-noughties it just is part of the world, not the centrepoint of the lit, so it will just be added in, like details that make the world bigger and more complex without being necessarily political. The leader of the Romulan Empire is a lesbian, who had a son with her partner (both dead alas!); a male crew member will have a husband, etc. One interesting character is the Vulcan main character in David Mack's Vanguard series, a kind of HBO/Netflix Trek series. In BL, it is what I would like, just drops of the normal behaviours that define our world within its fictional setting, the same as already established heterosexual depictions, and other societal things. Perhaps a model you are all probs familiar with is in another pop culture example, Netlfix's Jessica Jones. One of the last places Kilgrave hides is a gay male couple's swanky penthouse, it's not focused on that they are gay, rather that they are victimised by Kilgrave. The same with her lawyer boss, Hogarth - it isn't central to her character arc that she is a lesbian, it is assumed that this as normal in the fictional world as it is in the real world - instead what matters is that she has a wife, and a lover, and she is trying to leave her older partner for a younger one. Or Kima Greggs in The Wire.

[Marshal Rohr]

My interpretation of it is that space marines essentially having the maturity level of young boys also have young boys outlook on sex, ie they don't know what it is and it awkwardly confuses them. So the EC who have a culture of exploring erotic and sexual artworks and practices would be weird to the others who don't have a developed outlook on sexuality. Essentially I think the Khan was throwing an insult at Fulgrim's chastity like little boys tease the kid with a 'girlfriend' in elementary school and not being above mortal vices like sex, not his sexuality in particular, since your average space marine wouldn't have been old enough to be sexually active when they are taken for training.