When the Khan jabs that Fulgrim does strange things

[Petitioner's City]

My interpretation of it is that space marines essentially having the maturity level of young boys also have young boys outlook on sex, ie they don't know what it is and it awkwardly confuses them. So the EC who have a culture of exploring erotic and sexual artworks and practices would be weird to the others who don't have a developed outlook on sexuality. Essentially I think the Khan was throwing an insult at Fulgrim's chastity like little boys tease the kid with a 'girlfriend' in elementary school and not being above mortal vices like sex, not his sexuality in particular, since your average space marine wouldn't have been old enough to be sexually active when they are taken for training.

 

That's interesting as well; I wonder what psychologists and neuroscientists write about sexual development at this age, and how the brain develops subsequently - is the sexualisation of the brain (whatever that involves) necessary to adult reasoning & emotions, or not. 

[mactire]

Waaaaaaaaaayyyyyy too much thought going into this guys, go paint or assemble something .

[Arkangilos]

Yeah, let's get away from the whole LGBT representation, because no one is going to come out of it a winner, or happy.

[karden00]

Yeah, let's get away from the whole LGBT representation, because no one is going to come out of it a winner, or happy.

I enjoy looking at this incident from different angles, because it is an interesting glimpse of something we dont often see in the setting regarding primarchs - humor - and the way it was written, there are many different ways we can take it, but yes, let's move on. 

[Arkangilos]

 

 

Yeah, let's get away from the whole LGBT representation, because no one is going to come out of it a winner, or happy.

I enjoy looking at this incident from different angles, because it is an interesting glimpse of something we dont often see in the setting regarding primarchs - humor - and the way it was written, there are many different ways we can take it, but yes, let's move on.

I don't mean move on from discussing the joke. I mean move on from what we think they should and shouldn't joke about, and what has and has not a place.

[Petitioner's City]

Yeah, let's get away from the whole LGBT representation, because no one is going to come out of it a winner, or happy.

I enjoy looking at this incident from different angles, because it is an interesting glimpse of something we dont often see in the setting regarding primarchs - humor - and the way it was written, there are many different ways we can take it, but yes, let's move on.

It is nice how laughter is such a part of his persona

Yeah, let's get away from the whole LGBT representation, because no one is going to come out of it a winner, or happy.

If not here, is there a suitable place? But ultimately I guess I believe that no matter how dystopian a setting, science fiction or science fantasy can serve as a place in which to discuss these ideas (like Larissa Lai's dystopian novel Salt Fish Girl or the future sections of Cloud Atlas). As I said before, tie-in literature can do this - Trek did it, I presume Dr Who does (which Abnett writes for on occasion) - and of course science fiction has an interesting history of gendered, racial and lgbt discussion, in both 'high' and 'low'/'literary'' and 'pulp'/'original' and 'tie in' formats. This can include a broad spectrum of niches within it, but you prob all know Ursula K. LeGuin's novel The Left Hand of Darkness. Beyond it is the subsequent feminising of space fiction, the very important tradition of afrofuturism and, what I have mentioned a bit about before, queer science fiction. (for ppl worried about these links, they are all books on googlebooks and one wiki article)

Of course the Khagan himself and the improvements to his Legion are part of this too, in terms of mixing 1980s/90s orientalism with a slightly more modern perspective, a complicated process for sure

Ok I'll stop - but is there a more appropriate place.

[Sulemain]

People often forget that Space Marines aren't that attractive. They're kinda freakish looking.

[Marshal Rohr]

It's mentioned several times EC and BA are 'heartbreakingly' beautiful. It's always been a key part of blood angels lore that their geneseed takes radiation poisoned mad max wastelanders and recreates them as Greek Demi gods.

[A D-B]

LG on TFE said it's not a gay joke, and has a a tie to some of the rumors going around.

 

I've not seen Laurie's rely, but I suspect that's dead on - and I do know Chris Wraight. He's not tacky, cheap, or tawdry enough to either write a terrible joke like that, or be so disrespectful to either the IP and/or people in general. 

[Firepower]

 

LG on TFE said it's not a gay joke, and has a a tie to some of the rumors going around.

 

I've not seen Laurie's rely, but I suspect that's dead on - and I do know Chris Wraight. He's not tacky, cheap, or tawdry enough to either write a terrible joke like that, or be so disrespectful to either the IP and/or people in general. 

 

 

I choose to believe this. :)

[DarKnight]

I appreciate the conversation you guys have fostered about representation of LBGT characters in sci-fi and 40K specifically. And I don't want to downplay it or speak for Chris Wraight but I think if you put the perspective of the III Legion in opposition to their brother Legions they would be perceived as doing "strange things" not even weird Slaaneshi stuff or whatever but in the frame of these are genetically engineered killing machines designed to conquer the Galaxy but they do stuff in their spare time like paint, write operas, and create sculpture. I'm quite sure the Khan, Russ, Dorn, Mortarion etc. would see that as pointless at best and wasteful to the point of dereliction of duty at worst.

[veterannoob]

 

 

Yeah, let's get away from the whole LGBT representation, because no one is going to come out of it a winner, or happy.

I enjoy looking at this incident from different angles, because it is an interesting glimpse of something we dont often see in the setting regarding primarchs - humor - and the way it was written, there are many different ways we can take it, but yes, let's move on.

I don't mean move on from discussing the joke. I mean move on from what we think they should and shouldn't joke about, and what has and has not a place.

Yeah that's too bad. I thought we were having a nice constructive civilized discussion. I would genuinely like to pick it up wherever the safe zone is.

[Marshal Rohr]

Ask the mods to set up an 'academic' discussion sub-forum where all the topics are literary critiques :D

[Petitioner's City]

I appreciate the conversation you guys have fostered about representation of LBGT characters in sci-fi and 40K specifically. And I don't want to downplay it or speak for Chris Wraight but I think if you put the perspective of the III Legion in opposition to their brother Legions they would be perceived as doing "strange things" not even weird Slaaneshi stuff or whatever but in the frame of these are genetically engineered killing machines designed to conquer the Galaxy but they do stuff in their spare time like paint, write operas, and create sculpture. I'm quite sure the Khan, Russ, Dorn, Mortarion etc. would see that as pointless at best and wasteful to the point of dereliction of duty at worst.

 

Not for the Khagan, though. Creating art and poetry is part of the Scars identity that Wraight has crafted - indeed the Scars are as strange to other legions as the artistic Blood Angels and Emperor's Children are also. It's again perhaps cliche - the skill set of a Confucian civil service minister or general, but it is at the heart of Wraight's Scars, in a beautiful way. See especially Brotherhood of the Storm and then Scars. But I think ... all the primarchs have 'artistic' elements to them, even Mortarion but certainly the knotwork world of Russ Abnett (re)created, and indeed the complicating of these figures is very interesting. 

 

Also thank you! I think it's been a good convo :)

[Phoebus]

I don't see any issue with the topics being discussed thus far. The rule has always been to engage in discussion and debates in a respectful manner - at a level appropriate for a forum that considers itself family-friendly.

 

A couple of points (all subjective; all my opinion):

 

1. I'm not exactly surprised there's not much discussion about sexuality, gender roles, race, etc., in Black Library novels (or, rather, ones concerning the Imperium of Man; I haven't gotten into Warhammer Fantasy). While I and many others here are adults in their third, fourth, or perhaps even fifth decade of life, I've come to accept that Black Library tries to make its material accessible to teenagers. Sexuality being a hot-button topic these days, I'm not surprised it takes a distant back seat to more acceptable fare - such as the impending annihilation of Humanity by soul-eating ruinous powers and their nihilistic superman warrior-minions.

 

2. Indulge my need to offer a qualifier. Human beings aren't perfect. With all due respect to Dan Abnett, Aaron Dembski-Bowden, Graham McNeil, Chris Wraight, etc., there will be times when they write prose that is spot-on and brilliant, and times when they write things that just can't capture what they intended.

 

That having been said, let me now state the obvious. Slaanesh isn't code for "kinky", "gay", "homoerotic", "androgynous", or whatever. At a minimum, it's not code for any one of those things. Jaghatai may have been referring to the augmentation experiments Fulgrim ordered Fabius to conduct, and that would be all well and good. If he was referring to Slaanesh-driven behavior, though, then we're likely talking about something that would go well beyond behavior we would associate with human culture. Slaanesh stands for an indulgence to pleasure to an extent where one eventually becomes insanely depraved. It's unfortunate that Fulgrim has so often been suggested (or, at any rate, interpreted) as merely effeminate, androgynous, "flamboyant", or what have you, because what he truly is is something beyond even Konrad Curze in terms of sadistic monstrousness.

 

3. Consider the Imperium of Man. At its End Times period, it is the sum of Humanity, sworn to an unforgiving theocracy and opposed to powers that would see their species ended. The core tenets of this Imperium aren't the sort of morals that Leviticus, evangelical Christians, or reactionary Imams would recognize. The Imperium of Man's ethos involve unwavering loyalty to the Throne, production quotas, unquestioning obedience on the battlefield, hatred of the inhuman, technological mysticism, etc. The Ecclesiarchy doesn't care if Planet X worships the Emperor as a Solar Chariot-Riding Deity, as the All-Powerful Volcano Man, or as the Sky With A Million Eyes. Do you pay the tithe? Do you hold Him on Terra above all others? So long as you do, I suspect that the Imperium of Man does not give a damn what gender you or I identify with, or who we would rather take as lovers.

 

Frankly, I think the same applies for the Imperium of Man in the 31st Millennium. The entire species is on war-footing. Can you imagine how a Lord Commander would react if some backwood planet's high muckety-muck told him he can only conscript 10,000,000 soldiers instead of 11,000,000 because their local religion doesn't tolerate "The Gays?" He'd be shot. Pure and simple.

[Arkangilos]

On the other hand, the Ecclesiarchy (who know about the warp daemons) could think, "huh, these people are deviants who are not producing the next generation for the Emperors wars, and giving into personal temptations that could very well lead them to heresy and into the embrace of Slaanesh. Let's outlaw it."

 

We don't know much about the tenets of the Imperiums morals when it comes to the non-military life. But what we do no is that they consider idleness, waste, and unproductive behavior to be sins. We also know that they consider manpower their prime resource, so it is entirely within the realm of possibilities that they see homosexual behavior as being undutiful to the God Emperor, because they aren't increasing their manpower. It is a waste of the human body, which is considered sacred, because it's organs are not being used to efficiently.

 

Now, Hive Worlds probably would not spend many resources enforcing it, but worlds with smaller populations? Definitely possible they would enforce such morality.

 

So yes, there IS a place for homophobia, and there IS a place for jokes. We should NOT force political correctness of any sort (no matter what side it is for) into any literature, or any setting. Especially a setting like this.

 

If author A wants it, he should be able to write it. If Author B doesn't, then he doesn't have to. The good thing about 40k is that society is so varied across the stars that we can have it both ways.

 

For the record, I think such behavior would be more acceptable in 30k than 40k, much in the same way it is more acceptable when societies are thriving. Ancient Rome and Greece had less of a taboo, but when the dark ages came around it was made into a massive sin. 30k has always been depicted as the classical era, and 40k as the dark ages, so it makes sense that morality like that has been cracked down on.

 

Edit to add-

 

I agree science fiction is a good place to write about these topics, which is why I think it's important that we don't say that people can't make gay jokes in stories. When you start censorship because you believe that is unacceptable, it leads down a bad path.

[A D-B]

I agree science fiction is a good place to write about these topics, which is why I think it's important that we don't say that people can't make gay jokes in stories. When you start censorship because you believe that is unacceptable, it leads down a bad path.

 

I don't think anyone would say that, or censor it. But they wouldn't need to. There's no shutting down of the idea. It's just... not a great idea. I don't think any in-universe character would say it, and no author would write it. 

 

The latter because it's lame and tacky (and #1 factor in a joke: it's not even funny). The former because it's not something in-universe characters would think and/or care about; it's not relevant to their priorities the way it is to early 21st century human cultures still gripped in many ways and laws by the lingering taboos of monotheistic religion.

 

The idea of homosexuality being an insult or a problem just wouldn't occur to 99.99999% of people in the setting. The same way a culture that, I don't know, banned wearing certain colours as grievous insults or sins worthy of execution would look bizarre to us. "They... they care about that? It affects them in some way? Wow. Weird."

[b1soul]

Yes, the Scars engage in calligraphy and poetry

[Mellow]

I took the comment to mean the surgery that Fulgrim authorised. It didn't even cross my mind that it could be anything else being that they are essentially brothers that like to goad each other.

 

Especially with Fulgrim trying to show that he's perfect. If he's pointed out to be doing something odd and not perfect then it may sting his personality more.

[Loesh]

 

 

The latter because it's lame and tacky (and #1 factor in a joke: it's not even funny). The former because it's not something in-universe characters would think and/or care about; it's not relevant to their priorities the way it is to early 21st century human cultures still gripped in many ways and laws by the lingering taboos of monotheistic religion.

 

The idea of homosexuality being an insult or a problem just wouldn't occur to 99.99999% of people in the setting. The same way a culture that, I don't know, banned wearing certain colours as grievous insults or sins worthy of execution would look bizarre to us. "They... they care about that? It affects them in some way? Wow. Weird."

 

 

Really? I'd think that because of how the Imperium was structured that there would actually be a lot of worlds that cared about homosexuality, the perfect(And not even THAT perfect.) worlds that Lorgar, Fulgrim, and Roboute made being exceptions rather then rules. To me superstitious and base ideas run around as much like wildfire in the countless worlds of the Imperium even in a age of 'science and reason' as they do in the real world, but magnified on such an absurd scale that whether the Emperor/High Lords of Terra cared about their existence or not they couldn't possibly be stamped out. Hell, I think those cultures that would give you a Ferrus Manus style Viking Crewcut for wearing taboo colors probably exist somewhere out there too, but as long as the tithes keep flowing to the bureaucracy of mankind they couldn't care less.

 

Then again I take the darkest possible view of the setting, the one where the bad guys are the closest things to saviors mankind has anymore whether they were right or wrong to begin with, and it's a legit question if mankind is even worth saving either way. To me it's more a wrong headed theory because I doubt a Primarch would care about such a thing.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

The latter because it's lame and tacky (and #1 factor in a joke: it's not even funny). The former because it's not something in-universe characters would think and/or care about; it's not relevant to their priorities the way it is to early 21st century human cultures still gripped in many ways and laws by the lingering taboos of monotheistic religion.

 

The idea of homosexuality being an insult or a problem just wouldn't occur to 99.99999% of people in the setting. The same way a culture that, I don't know, banned wearing certain colours as grievous insults or sins worthy of execution would look bizarre to us. "They... they care about that? It affects them in some way? Wow. Weird."

 

 

Really? I'd think that because of how the Imperium was structured that there would actually be a lot of worlds that cared about homosexuality, the perfect(And not even THAT perfect.) worlds that Lorgar, Fulgrim, and Roboute made being exceptions rather then rules. To me superstitious and base ideas run around as much like wildfire in the countless worlds of the Imperium even in a age of 'science and reason' as they do in the real world, but magnified on such an absurd scale that whether the Emperor/High Lords of Terra cared about their existence or not they couldn't possibly be stamped out. Hell, I think those cultures that would give you a Ferrus Manus style Viking Crewcut for wearing taboo colors probably exist somewhere out there too, but as long as the tithes keep flowing to the bureaucracy of mankind they couldn't care less.

 

Then again I take the darkest possible view of the setting, the one where the bad guys are the closest things to saviors mankind has anymore whether they were right or wrong to begin with, and it's a legit question if mankind is even worth saving either way. To me it's more a wrong headed theory because I doubt a Primarch would care about such a thing.

 

 

I'm sure there are worlds that care. There are worlds that do everything and/or do nothing, as that's the freedom of the setting. There are worlds that worship the Emperor as a sun god, or the spirits of their ancestors incarnated as a superbeing, or whatever else, and have no idea about the Golden Throne, and never will as long as they pay their tithes. 

 

But there's a difference between "Sure, there are probably worlds that care among the squillion cultures" and "It'd be a major thing and/or principle in the Imperium." 

 

And this does have real world context. It's petty and ignorant to ignore that - so, yes, while you could write about a culture in the Imperium that hates The Gays, you're also then choosing to focus on that one tricky l'il real world issue that happens to be occurring right now, and while you can play it off as "But loads of biases and prejudices and superstitions would be magnified in the Imperium", it's disingenuous because you'll have focused on That Particular One, and it would reek of trying to make a snide point, dragging a specific real world conflict into a setting where it's never, ever mattered, and likely wouldn't matter to most cultures.

 

(Not you, Loesh. The royal You, in such a hypothetical scenario.)

 

Let's put it this way, though. In 30 years of lore, there's been no mention of this particular real world issue being something anyone, anywhere, in the Imperium gives a damn about, and several examples of it being perfectly accepted. You can choose to see that as a hole in the lore or evidence that we've not seen enough of the Imperium, or you can choose to see it as something that really just isn't a big deal to the Imperium at large. 

 

This is the kind of thing fans tend to cluster around (see also: Can Space Marines do the do?) that just... doesn't matter. It's not relevant or even that interesting to most people, and its normalcy is inferred by its lack of mention at all. I can't think of a single meeting or night out at the pub where I've talked about it with my friends, let alone sat with Dan Abnett and Gav Thorpe and talked about Space Marine sexing, or bothered to Facebook Andy Chambers for his perspective on Adeptus Astartes Coitus Times.  

[b1soul]

I think we can agree that whether homosexuality is a big no-no throughout much of the Imperium is something not clearly established in the lore.

 

If the Imperial Faith is similar to Christianity in this regard, then worlds more immersed in the Imperial Faith would likely be less tolerant of homosexuality. But we really don't know the Imperial Faith's stance on the issue

[Loesh]

 

 

 

I'm sure there are worlds that care. There are worlds that do everything and/or do nothing, as that's the freedom of the setting. There are worlds that worship the Emperor as a sun god, or the spirits of their ancestors incarnated as a superbeing, or whatever else, and have no idea about the Golden Throne, and never will as long as they pay their tithes. 

 

But there's a difference between "Sure, there are probably worlds that care among the squillion cultures" and "It'd be a major thing and/or principle in the Imperium." 

 

And this does have real world context. It's petty and ignorant to ignore that - so, yes, while you could write about a culture in the Imperium that hates The Gays, you're also then choosing to focus on that one tricky l'il real world issue that happens to be occurring right now, and while you can play it off as "But loads of biases and prejudices and superstitions would be magnified in the Imperium", it's disingenuous because you'll have focused on That Particular One, and it would reek of trying to make a snide point, dragging a specific real world conflict into a setting where it's never, ever mattered, and likely wouldn't matter to most cultures.

 

(Not you, Loesh. The royal You, in such a hypothetical scenario.)

 

Let's put it this way, though. In 30 years of lore, there's been no mention of this particular real world issue being something anyone, anywhere, in the Imperium gives a damn about, and several examples of it being perfectly accepted. You can choose to see that as a hole in the lore or evidence that we've not seen enough of the Imperium, or you can choose to see it as something that really just isn't a big deal to the Imperium at large. 

 

This is the kind of thing fans tend to cluster around (see also: Can Space Marines do the do?) that just... doesn't matter. It's not relevant or even that interesting to most people - I can't think of a single meeting or night out at the pub where I've talked about it with my friends, let alone sat with Dan Abnett and Gav Thorpe and talked about Space Marine sexing, or bothered to Facebook Andy Chambers for his perspective on Adeptus Astartes Coitus Times.  

 

 

Fair enough, just felt like pointing it out as a thing that happens, just like a squillion other things in the setting can happen. I can't think of many things i'm as in love with in the 40k setting as it's sheer scope, the old sonic guitars maybe.

[Rob P]

I do agree with making characters complicated; the problem is that there is little-to-no positive LGBT representation in 40k, so it is problematic that the only queer culture in-universe is really the ECs whose 'pinkness' and sometimes effeminate aspects are mocked, rather than explored. Perhaps Wraight didn't mean the Khagan to be refering to sexual practice, perhaps he did - it is very exciting if he was, since it complicates and adds to how we can play with or fantasise about our toys .... [Redacted]

Point well made.

[Arkangilos]

Yeah, A D-B, I'm not saying it has to be there. My reply was specifically in regards to this quote:

 

But this is homophobic - there shouldn't be a place for it in 40K (or 40k lit) anymore.

And also his quoted after that about shoe horning homosexuality into various things.

 

I'm not saying I am against homosexuality in the universe. What I'm saying is that this universe is the most likely, out of all of the mentioned scifi universes, to be homophobic. Also, I agree with what some posters say in that I don't see what the Khan said as having to do with that at all.

 

Anyways, I hope I'm not coming off as a bigot. It's just that I've seen a lot of censorship happen or try to happen, and so whether I agree with a subject or not, I get up in arms about it.