Carcharodons novel by Robbie McNiven

[helterskelter]

As to answer a question why some think other legions were involved/lingering heritage as well as answering another

night Lords had a tendency to leave the odd survivor to sow fear further leaving them just coherent/alive enough to describe what they saw. Add several centuries of watering down = rannick. One lone survivor unfortunately met with the inquisition.

 

I thought the list of ideas I gave were reasonable as to the links to the legions (bar maybe the sevatar one, that's a bit more tinfoil hat :p ). Plus, unless the Raven guard or any other legion start using Ursus claws in what heresy novels remain to us, that ship is at least acquired from the world eaters at some point in the carchadorons history.

[HeritorA]

As to answer a question why some think other legions were involved/lingering heritage as well as answering another

night Lords had a tendency to leave the odd survivor to sow fear further leaving them just coherent/alive enough to describe what they saw. Add several centuries of watering down = rannick. One lone survivor unfortunately met with the inquisition.

 

I thought the list of ideas I gave were reasonable as to the links to the legions (bar maybe the sevatar one, that's a bit more tinfoil hat ). Plus, unless the Raven guard or any other legion start using Ursus claws in what heresy novels remain to us, that ship is at least acquired from the world eaters at some point in the carchadorons history.

I think the inquisition will brainwash her and that's where the hunt for the 'mysterious' astartes will start.  As for the Ursus claw and 'bloodthirsting' rage of the termis - some WE definitely were inhabited into the Chapter from the start and later that went into new recruts with geneseed

[Dumah]

 

As to answer a question why some think other legions were involved/lingering heritage as well as answering another

night Lords had a tendency to leave the odd survivor to sow fear further leaving them just coherent/alive enough to describe what they saw. Add several centuries of watering down = rannick. One lone survivor unfortunately met with the inquisition.

 

I thought the list of ideas I gave were reasonable as to the links to the legions (bar maybe the sevatar one, that's a bit more tinfoil hat ). Plus, unless the Raven guard or any other legion start using Ursus claws in what heresy novels remain to us, that ship is at least acquired from the world eaters at some point in the carchadorons history.

I think the inquisition will brainwash her and that's where the hunt for the 'mysterious' astartes will start.  As for the Ursus claw and 'bloodthirsting' rage of the termis - some WE definitely were inhabited into the Chapter from the start and later that went into new recruts with geneseed

 

 

Also, anyone else notice the term "Devourers" being used for Carcharodon Assault Marines? Another possible nod to the WE (their legion termies of the same name).

[Petitioner's City]

The thing I don't understand, if they are Terran legionnaires who were exiled by the Raven Lord, is why they follow the Codex Astartes? In the HH, those XIX Astartes fit into the Blackshield domain, but don't seem to have returned. So at what point did they decide to abandon Legion style tactics and formations, or their Blackshield isolated formations, and so *fully* subscribe to the generic chapter forms? That doesn't make sense and I kinda wish there was more ... discord or divergence reflecting descent from loyalist Blackshield & Legion formations.

 

I liked the Night Lords in this, and the unique slant you added to them, but they were certainly shallow. I kept wanting more from them, but the dull 'I'll betray that person' cavalcade of characterisation just left me bored. There must be more to them than this? Nevertheless, the idea of young blood chapter/legion forces is a great idea, one not really explored fully since Graham's early work. Clinging to past identities, manipulating and mythologising and impersonating. I definitely wanted more thematic complexity there - you are a historian, perhaps some theory flung in? More on masques and identity and mantles and theatre or anthropology theory underpinning this. Less battle (but this is my constant complaint about BL :D )

 

As for the battles, in truth I got tired of them, and the sense of battle mapping going on. I did like the way you had Rannick as POV at points, but I was bored by the Carchodon povs. Mixed on the Night Lords, but I liked how you evoked the dark and also the touch of lightning being a light show over armour - was this your own choice? But on battle ... Can we have less? And more of your interesting world building, more reaching characterisation, more thought?

 

This sounds harsh, so I'll make sure I have a nice end to this feedback sandwich - really I enjoyed this, I wanted more, but I liked all your innovations. I hope you can push more on these - what strange techcult helps these rogue Astartes? What cults do they themselves have? How do masques and identity play a role in their culture further? More on slavery as a form of praxis and something core to their identity? I feel like their ships are silent siblings to Degas's madhouses - the insanity of their failings winding through their minds, stigmatising them on their skin, enflaming their minds to depraved ends, all within a charcoal darkness.

 

I loved the armour scenes too! And the dreadnought moment. I wanted more of charcadon culture in space :D

[Conn Eremon]

But they weren't Codex adherent? Which is the negative aspect to me, because I used to love the implications made in the Badab War IAs that the Codex did not just promote a singular pattern of organization. They were described as forming around the Nomad-Predation Fleet pattern, which seemed to suggest that to me. And I thought it was a great addition to the Codex Astartes, because it opened up room for diversity within the (in-universe) logic and reason the Codex prescribes.

 

The HH books negated that, and revealed it to be a holdover from a Legion formation. That disappointed the hell out of me, and it is one of those rare points where I think FW dropped the ball and I'm going to stick with a headcanon.

 

As for this book, this is another thing I'm critical of. Nomad-Predation Fleets are a cool concept and name, but they're awkward to say. It would've been nice if the Chapter would just say "the fleet" every now and then, instead of repeating Nomad-Predation Fleet over and over.

 

Which is why I say they're really not shown to be Codex adherent. Because it's repeatedly mentioned that they follow a pattern that FW has explicitly removed the Codex. Certainly don't blame the author for not adhering to an older implication that I liked though.

 

Doesn't mean that there isn't overlap though. Legions, Blackshields and Codex Chapters all can have Companies, Squads, Captains, Sergeants, Tactical Marines, Devastator Marines, Assault Marines, and Veteran Terminators or Scouts forwarded from a dedicated Company. These are all things Codex Chapters have, but Legions and Blackshields can also have. Sure the latter two have more options for deviation, but there was nothing exclusive to Codex Chapters and there was something exclusive to Legions and Blackshields.

 

That said, desiring more elements that do not overlap, more Legion/Black shield exclusive traits, is certainly understandable.

[HeritorA]

The thing I don't understand, if they are Terran legionnaires who were exiled by the Raven Lord, is why they follow the Codex Astartes? In the HH, those XIX Astartes fit into the Blackshield domain, but don't seem to have returned. So at what point did they decide to abandon Legion style tactics and formations, or their Blackshield isolated formations, and so *fully* subscribe to the generic chapter forms? That doesn't make sense and I kinda wish there was more ... discord or divergence reflecting descent from loyalist Blackshield & Legion formations.

 

I liked the Night Lords in this, and the unique slant you added to them, but they were certainly shallow. I kept wanting more from them, but the dull 'I'll betray that person' cavalcade of characterisation just left me bored. There must be more to them than this? Nevertheless, the idea of young blood chapter/legion forces is a great idea, one not really explored fully since Graham's early work. Clinging to past identities, manipulating and mythologising and impersonating. I definitely wanted more thematic complexity there - you are a historian, perhaps some theory flung in? More on masques and identity and mantles and theatre or anthropology theory underpinning this. Less battle (but this is my constant complaint about BL )

 

As for the battles, in truth I got tired of them, and the sense of battle mapping going on. I did like the way you had Rannick as POV at points, but I was bored by the Carchodon povs. Mixed on the Night Lords, but I liked how you evoked the dark and also the touch of lightning being a light show over armour - was this your own choice? But on battle ... Can we have less? And more of your interesting world building, more reaching characterisation, more thought?

 

This sounds harsh, so I'll make sure I have a nice end to this feedback sandwich - really I enjoyed this, I wanted more, but I liked all your innovations. I hope you can push more on these - what strange techcult helps these rogue Astartes? What cults do they themselves have? How do masques and identity play a role in their culture further? More on slavery as a form of praxis and something core to their identity? I feel like their ships are silent siblings to Degas's madhouses - the insanity of their failings winding through their minds, stigmatising them on their skin, enflaming their minds to depraved ends, all within a charcoal darkness.

 

I loved the armour scenes too! And the dreadnought moment. I wanted more of charcadon culture in space

Cause they got a lot of marines and their geneseed, from the Chapter that follows Codex during long millenias in the utter dark and tithe time?

 

'I loved the armour scenes too! And the dreadnought moment. I wanted more of charcadon culture in space' - yes, yes, please Robbie.

 

Plus as additional point - Robbie you skipped over the void warfare in your first book. Please give it a solid go in your next book. For Astartes to be able to get to the enemy throat - they should get into it;s range in their mighty fleets. Plus Carcharodons being a nomadic space fairing Chapter - it would be nice how they captain the ships and how their culture got impacted by the glory of it's ships and their history

[Augustus]

If I was Chapter with a shady past I do my best to not give reasons for people to investigate it further. Eg attempt to outwardly follow the Codex

 

I'm loving it so far. Robbie, tell all science fiction writers you know that Asteroid Belts are not dense. They are very empty, in fact. ;)

[HeritorA]

If I was Chapter with a shady past I do my best to not give reasons for people to investigate it further. Eg attempt to outwardly follow the Codex

 

I'm loving it so far. Robbie, tell all science fiction writers you know that Asteroid Belts are not dense. They are very empty, in fact.

That's why Inquisition plot surely would be one of the coin sides in the follow-up books :) See Robbie - I already wish you had a tetralogy ;)

[RobMac]

Re. a couple of questions raised:

 

Zartak was chosen because it's a backwater full of undesirables - the Imperium will be slow to react to events happening there, and won't care too much about whatever fate befalls the planet's prison population. It's one of a number of worlds earmarked by the Carcharodons as optimal places for tithing.

 

Rannick was left alive because she was a member of the Adeptus Terra. The Carcharodons are technically forbidden from enslaving pretty much anyone a step up from the level of average Imperial citizen. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it's very much frowned on. It's the basic line that stops the Carcharodons from technically being renegades. Rannick herself knows almost nothing about the Chapter, so leaving her didn't represent much of a threat.

 

The flashbacks occur for different reasons. In Kordi's case, it's due to the imperfection of the recruitment process, foisted on the Chapter by their lack of resources. Cull experiences his because of the daemon Bar'ghul, who uses them for manipulative purposes. 

 

Re. the Codex, they're on the "spectrum" of adherence, but don't follow it entirely. I wanted to try and stay in keeping with the Imperial Armour lore, where they're mostly Codex compliant. 

[HeritorA]

Re. a couple of questions raised:

 

Zartak was chosen because it's a backwater full of undesirables - the Imperium will be slow to react to events happening there, and won't care too much about whatever fate befalls the planet's prison population. It's one of a number of worlds earmarked by the Carcharodons as optimal places for tithing.

 

Rannick was left alive because she was a member of the Adeptus Terra. The Carcharodons are technically forbidden from enslaving pretty much anyone a step up from the level of average Imperial citizen. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it's very much frowned on. It's the basic line that stops the Carcharodons from technically being renegades. Rannick herself knows almost nothing about the Chapter, so leaving her didn't represent much of a threat.

 

The flashbacks occur for different reasons. In Kordi's case, it's due to the imperfection of the recruitment process, foisted on the Chapter by their lack of resources. Cull experiences his because of the daemon Bar'ghul, who uses them for manipulative purposes. 

 

Re. the Codex, they're on the "spectrum" of adherence, but don't follow it entirely. I wanted to try and stay in keeping with the Imperial Armour lore, where they're mostly Codex compliant. 

Wow - that's awesome answers! Ty so much

 

Now write part 2 quick. I need to read something until Warmaster in December 2017

[Felix Antipodes]

Finally finished the book (and ebook prequel) and very much impressed with both. Add another vote for more from Mr MacNiven about both the Carcharon Astra AND Night Lords.

 

On a side note; While I understand, and mostly agree that battle scenes are the least enjoyable parts of BL stories, I think we are flogging a dead horse to call for less of it in a setting where "there is only war".

[HeritorA]

Finally finished the book (and ebook prequel) and very much impressed with both. Add another vote for more from Mr MacNiven about both the Carcharon Astra AND Night Lords.

 

On a side note; While I understand, and mostly agree that battle scenes are the least enjoyable parts of BL stories, I think we are flogging a dead horse to call for less of it in a setting where "there is only war".

 

Not only war - but horror, suffering, heroic fits and great adventures in the grim darkness of a gothic candlesticks ;)

[Laughingman]

Read the book and still have several questions

 

The book mentioned Arkhas Fal as the writer of the foundational text, I was under the impression Fal was the former legion master before Corax exiled him and the core of the old pale nomads into the outer void. If so, what time frame was this? How many were sent? I as under the impression this was fairly soon after Corax was found, but i could be mistaken. In addition if they had truly been fighting without support for 10000 years where did the Red Brethren get Indomitus pattern terminator armor?  The 3rd company Captain also wears a set of MKIV armor which I thought was only being freshly issued around the time the HH broke out. If they had been exiled soon after corax's discovery they should only have cobbled together MK II, III, and V pattern  power armor and older patterns of terminator armor? Then again they could have made deals with various forge worlds as tech-marines travel to gain training ( I bet they have piles of archeotech that techno-magi would gladly trade for a few dozen suits of armor). Otherwise I image they simply stole it from the mantis warriors and other chapters they have put down over the years.

 

The book itself was good, though it was interesting how a single company has THREE Contemptor dreadnoughts, who occupants are likely some of the last of the Terran born space marines who fought in the great crusade. If the third company has three how many do they have overall? I've been wanting to build a fluffy space marine army that I can justify all the cool old HH era stuff in, and I think i've found a way!

[Augustus]

I hope the Primarch Series for Corax is given to Robbie and he can develop Arkhas Fal further. I want to know what kind of conversations he and Corax had.

[b1soul]

"Arkhas...please come into my office. We need to talk about your performance review."

[deathspectersgt7]

Having finally recieved my copy . Long lost in a USPS bunker . have to say WOW !!!! could not put it down . Even read while eating dinner .  Great Book.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Read the book and still have several questions

 

The book mentioned Arkhas Fal as the writer of the foundational text, I was under the impression Fal was the former legion master before Corax exiled him and the core of the old pale nomads into the outer void. If so, what time frame was this? How many were sent? I as under the impression this was fairly soon after Corax was found, but i could be mistaken. In addition if they had truly been fighting without support for 10000 years where did the Red Brethren get Indomitus pattern terminator armor?  The 3rd company Captain also wears a set of MKIV armor which I thought was only being freshly issued around the time the HH broke out. If they had been exiled soon after corax's discovery they should only have cobbled together MK II, III, and V pattern  power armor and older patterns of terminator armor? Then again they could have made deals with various forge worlds as tech-marines travel to gain training ( I bet they have piles of archeotech that techno-magi would gladly trade for a few dozen suits of armor). Otherwise I image they simply stole it from the mantis warriors and other chapters they have put down over the years.

 

The book itself was good, though it was interesting how a single company has THREE Contemptor dreadnoughts, who occupants are likely some of the last of the Terran born space marines who fought in the great crusade. If the third company has three how many do they have overall? I've been wanting to build a fluffy space marine army that I can justify all the cool old HH era stuff in, and I think i've found a way!

The book notes that events that are similar to what happened in the book have happened before. Presumably they've fought without support, but not completely shut off from logistics, as they do recruit every so often. Makes sense that they might also have been able to requisition suits of armor from out of the way forge worlds.

[RobMac]

 

Read the book and still have several questions

 

The book mentioned Arkhas Fal as the writer of the foundational text, I was under the impression Fal was the former legion master before Corax exiled him and the core of the old pale nomads into the outer void. If so, what time frame was this? How many were sent? I as under the impression this was fairly soon after Corax was found, but i could be mistaken. In addition if they had truly been fighting without support for 10000 years where did the Red Brethren get Indomitus pattern terminator armor?  The 3rd company Captain also wears a set of MKIV armor which I thought was only being freshly issued around the time the HH broke out. If they had been exiled soon after corax's discovery they should only have cobbled together MK II, III, and V pattern  power armor and older patterns of terminator armor? Then again they could have made deals with various forge worlds as tech-marines travel to gain training ( I bet they have piles of archeotech that techno-magi would gladly trade for a few dozen suits of armor). Otherwise I image they simply stole it from the mantis warriors and other chapters they have put down over the years.

 

The book itself was good, though it was interesting how a single company has THREE Contemptor dreadnoughts, who occupants are likely some of the last of the Terran born space marines who fought in the great crusade. If the third company has three how many do they have overall? I've been wanting to build a fluffy space marine army that I can justify all the cool old HH era stuff in, and I think i've found a way!

The book notes that events that are similar to what happened in the book have happened before. Presumably they've fought without support, but not completely shut off from logistics, as they do recruit every so often. Makes sense that they might also have been able to requisition suits of armor from out of the way forge worlds.

 

Yep. The recruits come from the Red Tithes, the equipment comes from the Grey Tithes. For example, there are almost no Heresy-era tanks used by the Chapter anymore. 

[Karthak]

Pity that we didn't really get to see their fleet in action; the comment that their Strike Cruiser packed an almost Battle Barge-esque punch felt like an unfired Chekov's gun to me. Would have been funny to see some luckless Night Lords shipmaster face off against way more than he expected.

 

And I may be remembering incorrectly, but didn't the book state that half the Chapter fleet is from the Heresy era? Wouldn't that imply that the Carcharodons are really damn good at void warfare, since they've got so many old ships left?

Edited February 28, 2017 by Karthak

[Laughingman]

Pity that we didn't really get to see their fleet in action; the comment that their Strike Cruiser packed an almost Battle Barge-esque punch felt like an unfired Chekov's gun to me. Would have been funny to see some luckless Night Lords shipmaster face off against way more than he expected.

 

And I may be remembering incorrectly, but didn't the book state that half the Chapter fleet is from the Heresy era? Wouldn't that imply that the Carcharodons are really damn good at void warfare, since they've got so many old ships left?

 

I suspect they go out of there way to avoid costly attritional void engagements . Instead they likely prefer to strike from a position of strength at a foes weakest point, or other similar strategies, like harrowing an enemies rear, ambushing them at strategic planetary choke points, or preying on their supply lines. 

[GAZ_AV_NZ]

Robbie can you clarify what you meant about them returning
Was it when Corax returns or the Emperor?

Edited March 6, 2017 by WarriorFish
Chatspeak corrected

[HeritorA]

Robbie congrats on your past birthday - may the Pale Nomad protects.

And I do hope you will actually do MORE void engagements in the next 2 books. After all - Carc. are the predator fleet Chapter. So the master of the fleet should be one the most important and covetable positions.

Also - can you clarify if I get it right: So the Carcharodons would be able to officially return to the Imperium and particularly to Solar system only then Corax would be back from his Warp trip, no matter how long it takes? Or does they have some 'specific' achievement to get before having a 'pardon' of sort?

[Guest]

Another book I really enjoyed :)

[HeritorA]

I hope the Primarch Series for Corax is given to Robbie and he can develop Arkhas Fal further. I want to know what kind of conversations he and Corax had.

Indeed. In general I think that conversation happened long before Heresy, as we know that Corax talk with terran born RG after Gate 42 debacle and sent several expeditions fully packed with Terran marines on eternal crusade.

 

 

"Arkhas...please come into my office. We need to talk about your performance review."

Or this way :) After Gate 42

[RobMac]

Robbie can you clarify what you meant about them returning

Was it when Corax returns or the Emperor?

That's something I'm afraid I'm not going to clarify 

 

Also - can you clarify if I get it right: So the Carcharodons would be able to officially return to the Imperium and particularly to Solar system only then Corax would be back from his Warp trip, no matter how long it takes? Or does they have some 'specific' achievement to get before having a 'pardon' of sort?

Again, I'm not saying, though I will admit it's more than just "so-and-so is back, so it's all fine." 

 

Another book I really enjoyed

Woop