Questoris army. Where to start with an Imperial Knight army?

[Seneschal]

Ave

 

I have decided to join this forum in order to find tips and suggestions on how to go about with an Imperial Knight army. 

 

The IK have been a long time passion of mine. I still remember having the old models and now that I can budget and play such an army I have decided to begin a "walk". Since the IK are an expensive army I would like to hear the wisdom of more experienced players on several things concerning me, here we go.

 

I play in a setting where FW is not exactly welcome. I don't know why but FW models are rather the exception than the norm so I have to work with the standard GW Imperial Knights as my foundation. The idea is to build a core of three Imperial Knights and supplement this with the Mechanicus. So...

 

• Which Imperial Knights should be the staple for my army?
• Which Mechanicus/Skitarii units should be the allied detachment for my army?
• Which formation should I consider?
• Which good and bad points does an IK army have?

In my area we usually play 1850 points and we use the ETC format so the missions are often hard. My main army has been IG for a long time but now I feel the need for an upscaling. My opponents are the ever present Eldar, Tau and Space Marines, Necron and 'Nids are also quite nasty. What worries me is the AA element for many of my opponents field nasty flyers and I am also concerned for the increase of Drop Pod armies. 

 

Said that I have an idea for an army somehow set in place. I want a Mechanicus aligned army so the newly released Mechanicus/Skitarii are the models I plan to use in order to fill up the points. My budget is currently limited to an average of 500 Eur cca. so a buying list would be helpful too. 

 

I am not that good with painting but I really like the Knights so I would be glad if you can point me to some nice painting tutorials for this model. 

 

Thanks

 

 

Seneschal 

[MoGuy]

Then let me be the first one to welcome you as a new follower for the Omnissiah!

 

For a great deal of information, consult this thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308196-skitarii-and-mechanicum-hard-data-review/

 

It has helped me a lot in my understanding of our units and I can only recommend it!

 

Games of 1850 points will be enough to bring 3-4 Knights if you want to play them alone. With Ad Mech Allies it again depends on how much Ad Mech you want to bring to the table. I would advice you to start with the "Start Collecting: Skitarii"-Box, as it has an awesome price-to-models-value.

 

 

 

• Which Imperial Knights should be the staple for my army?

 

You can never go wrong with a good ol' Imperial Knight Paladin. He is an allrounder. If you want your Knights to be shooty, get yourself a Knight Crusader. The Knight Warden is good against blobs of infanterie and the Errant is your Anti-Tank-Choice. 

 

However, I do have to ask if FW is actually disliked in your group or if you just feel that way because it is so rare. The Forgeworld stuff is pretty balanced if not too pricey actually. I don't know why anyone would not welcome those awesome models and can only assume that noone in your group actually posseses FW stuff themself or have informed themself about those units. 

 

 

 

• Which Mechanicus/Skitarii units should be the allied detachment for my army?

 

You could play the War Convocation (White Dwarf Formation) which lets you take a Knight and one of every Ad Mech unit while giving you ALL UPGRADES FOR FREE(!), two new Doctrina AND your plasma weapons don't get hot. Otherwise here is a brief rundown of our units:

 

Tech-Priest Dominus:

Our only HQ. 2+ armour, FNP can restore a wound to a model in btb on a 2+ and has access to awesome wargear and artefacts. Leans to the tanky/supporty side of HQs.

 

Kataphron Destroyers:
The name is program. Either shoot a lot of plasma or a lot of Grav and can either take Phosphor (-1 to cover if it causes a wound) or flamethrowers.

 

Kataphron Breachers:

Anti-Vehicle with their haywire weapons.

 

Kastelan Robots:

T7 MCs that can shoot up to 9(!) S6 AP3 Phosphor shots. Devastating in shooting and CC due to their programs which lets them either get FNP, double shoot the back-weapons or double their attacks in CC.

 

Electro Priests:

Garbage. WAAAAAY too pricey (both in € and in points). 

 

Rangers:

Long range (30") infantery to sit in your backline and hold objectives. Have precision shots and can snipe stuff. Won't do that much dmg though.

 

Vanguard:

Medium range (18") infantery that will annihilate light-medium infanterie. 3 shots per model and every wound-roll of 6 causes an additional wound. Awesome!

 

Infiltrators:

Fragile CC unit. Pricey. Lots of attacks but no AP in CC. Will annihilate blobs and can even drown elite units in wounds.

 

Ruststalkers:

Fragile CC unit, also pricey. Wound rolls of 6 have fleshbane and AP2. Gain AP2 on all attacks on the second round of CC. Have nice grenades against infantery and vehicles.

 

Sydonian Dragoons:

Very cheap distraction/CC unit.

 

Ironstrider Ballistrari:

Even cheaper gun platform.

 

Onager Dunecrawler:

Your source of AA. His AA gun is actually 3 guns and one of those ignores cover so no jink saves. Will absolutely destroy flyers and skimmers.

 

 

 

• Which good and bad points does an IK army have?

 

Will get steamrolled by haywire and can be bound in CC by fearless or blob units. Other than that they will dish out the hurt and are quite sturdy. You won't get so many objectives if you run Knights only since you don't have the models to hold that many objectives or spread out so far.

Edited March 15, 2016 by MoGuy

[DeStinyFiSh]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/307235-tactica-imperial-knights-blood-angels-and-cult-done/

 

Might be more specific to your needs

 

First of all, magnetise your knights. I can field mine as every single option (Paladin, Warden, Gallant; Errant; Crusader), with fist or sword, melter or stubber and 2 out of 3 back mounted weapons. Totally worth it !

 

All in all, I would say a Paladin and a Warden are no brainers. Both are kind of good at everything. Paladin is a little better against AVs, but the Warden can bring down flyiers.

The third Knight can either be a Crusader for more Dakka, or a Gallant to save points.

 

Regarding the FW Knights I see it as Mo does.

 

As allies I would say Skitarii help you the most. Onagers can kill flyers, Dragoons and Ironstrider grab objetives and help you Knights when stuck in combat, Vanguard can help you against hordes and AVs when equipted with Arc Rifles and they just make your otherwise very small army a bit bigger.

Cult isn't a bad idea either. They can fix your Knights and Arc Breachers are a good support against other Superheavies and flyers (to a certain degree).

But I think you get much more out of the smaller tin men.

[MagicHat]

 

• Which Imperial Knights should be the staple for my army?

 

Paladin is usually considered the allrounder. Can put the hurt on hordes, elite, multiwound T4 and can pling away hullpoints.

Warden is the true allrounder. Excels against Sv3 elites and MC, can deal with hordes and light transports and still stands a chance to hurt Sv2+ and AV14 thanks to 12 shots of rending. Should always be the warlord were possible, as BS5 is brutal.

Errant can deal with Sv2+ and vehicles in general thanks to S9 melta, but is a bit overshadowed by the paladin/warden IMO. Lots of 2+ save also have a good Invulnerable save, meaning their increased shots end up more useful.

Gallant is the budget Knight. Slightly better in melee, for much worse shooting.

Crusader is the expensive shooty knight. However, it still have 4 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge, with HoW and stomp, so while some caution is recommended so it doesn't run into something dangerous, it is just as capable as it's brethren at crumping 1W infantry with no invulnerable, and the difference against most vehicles are negligible. Beware of tarpits as well, as you pay for the shooting ability.

 

Although, why choose? Magnetize it at the elbow joint, and you can use all the main weapon options. (Save for the battle/thermal cannon, which uses the same parts) If you buy 3 knights, you could put together 2 battle cannons, 1 thermal and then build all the other options and you will have plenty of choice.

 

 

 

• Which Mechanicus/Skitarii units should be the allied detachment for my army?

 

The Skitarii start collecting box is a great choice. 

Dominus is 2+ save, can repair his one model in his unit or vehicle in base contact on a 2+ and have some S5 AP2 attacks, or attacks with haywire. Plus some nice shooting.

Vanguards gives you some anti-horde shooting, and can bring haywire rifles to help bring down vehicles (And the Dominus can bring a relic that makes all your snapshots BS2, for dealing with fliers). However, if you bring 3 knight, they will likely be targeted by every AI gun in the opposing army. Might want a cheap and cheerful squad that basically acts as bullet sponges for the Dominus. They also bring the enemies T down by 1, which have some very limited uses for your army. Could pretty much ensure your knights kills a T6 MC in melee, and make T4 enemies vulnerable to instant death from stomps or boosted S6 dominus. Could be handy against necrons, or marines with fnp.

Onager gives you some very nice AA shooting with the Icarus Array.

 

 

 

• Which formation should I consider?

 

Never used 3 knights, so can't really help.

I would probably take the detachment for objective secured, but I have seen others suggest the Baronial. 

The War Convocation is pretty cool, if you want to go all in on Skitarii/CM.

1-3 Knights (Not sure if that is even possible at 1850 points though)

1 squad of: Vanguards, Rangers, Ruststalkers, infiltrators and onagers.

1 squad of either Ironstrider Ballistarii or Sydonian Dragoons.

1 detachment of CM, so minimum a Dominus and 2 units of kataphrons.

Free upgrades, including the Knights weapons.

All units gains the CM canticles, which makes it bonkers. Great for the Skitarii units, great for the Knight/s.

Stealth+shrouded, re-roll misses in shooting or melee, and one of them can be reused.

 

 

• Which good and bad points does an IK army have?

 

Every model stays functional until death and can move around quickly. Could play refused flank and just work your way around the enemy. Bad point would be that the enemy may simply outnumber you and win by playing the mission. Also, some army may have hardcounters, which is only to be expected when playing with an army made of a single type.

I have seen reports that armies with a single allied Knight performed better then knight armies.

 

 

EDIT: Infiltrators can reduce the I and WS of all enemies by 1, which can screw over an opposing knight immensely. 

MoGuy, ruststalkers doesn't gain fleshbane when they roll a 6 to wound. They pretty much have rending.

 

EDIT2: And the war convocation doesn't give new doctrines, I believe you are thinking about the Cohort Mechanicus, which gives one new Doctrine and Canticle, but have no knight.

Edited March 15, 2016 by MagicHat

[Seneschal]

Thank you for the replies. I am quite intrigued by the insights provided. 

 

So if I sum up. Knight Paladin and Knight Warden are the go to IK and should work as the core of the army. The Gallant is if I want to include a cheaper IK whilst the Errant is there if I need to counter armor. As allies the new Start a New Army Mechanicus set is a good beginning and should be expanded with more Skitarii rather than the Cult Mechanicus. 

 

Now the clarification on the FW units. My club is a rather local thing and not many of us do have FW models (it can be hard to get them due to the high shipment cost and are a no no unless we make a bulk order), also they come with a stigma as being "pay to win", as per expensive and quite powerful units. I agree that the aesthetics are gorgeous but the acquisition of the models themselves is quite an impairing factor, that and the GBP exchange rate. Even so I do also move around to play and there is a club which allows FW models but it is mostly HH centric. It would be interesting to hear some feedback on how to play the Questoris army in that setting too. 

 

I want to ask the following too:

 

• How is the Questoris army in HH and which units should one use?
• It is better to have 3 IK + Allies or 4 IK straight in an 1850 list?
• Can you provide a good tutorial on how to magnetize models, I have never done such a thing so info is needed?
• Is there a good template for the background of a Questoris House?
• Which are the "must read" books for an Imperial Knights player?

All in all I am getting an idea on how the army should work and I promise that I will read the provided topics tomorrow and thus get a better grasp on the army. My problem is that I have a set budget which I can invest in this army and I would like to do things right and proper thus I can begin to paint and play as soon as possible. 

 

But above all, ave frater and thank you for the welcome. I will endeavor to perform up to the expectation of the Martian Creed and the parameters of the Machine Cult. Praise be the Omnissiah, he who is the Motive Force and the dynamo for our corded bio-machines. 

[MoGuy]

 

MoGuy, ruststalkers doesn't gain fleshbane when they roll a 6 to wound. They pretty much have rending.

 

 

Sorry, my bad. The Chorda Claw automatically gives fleshbane to one attack. 

 

 

 

it can be hard to get them due to the high shipment cost and are a no no unless we make a bulk order), also they come with a stigma as being "pay to win", as per expensive and quite powerful units. I agree that the aesthetics are gorgeous but the acquisition of the models themselves is quite an impairing factor, that and the GBP exchange rate

 

Dunno where you live but here in Germany we also pay a lot to get those models. That's why we order them in bulks so that others can chip in and get awesome models too. There are really powerful units (30K Mechanicum has a 1075 points tank. Muhahaha!) but they are not "pay to win". They just have guns that we don't see in the "normal" 40K but they are balanced for their price. I would just talk to the people at your club. Maybe you will be surprised and other also want some sweet FW models and you could order more models to get that free shipping. Otherwise I would just ask why they dislike FW if they don't even own the models (and thus likely have never played against them). 

 

 

 

• Which are the "must read" books for an Imperial Knights player?

 

You mean prosaic literature like the novels or gamewise? For the later I would suggest the Codex: Imperial Knights (duh) and the Forgeworld Book Thagmata Army List. But as the Knights are largely created from STCs, they are really ancient and their history hasn't changed that much from ye old days.

 

 

 

Praise be the Omnissiah, he who is the Motive Force and the dynamo for our corded bio-machines. 

 

May he bless thee, brother and may your mechandrites wriggle in static ecstasy as you aquire new models!

Edited March 15, 2016 by MoGuy

[DeStinyFiSh]

I just clicked together a 1850 point list very quick, maybe this will help you:

 

Household Detachmend

 

1 Knight Warden - 395 Points

Lord Baron; Melter; Sanctuary

 

1 Knight Paladin - 375

 

1 Knight Crusader - 430

Battle Cannon

 

Dominus Maniple

 

1 Tech Priest Dominus - 155

Stasis Field, Uncreator Gauntlet

 

10 Vanguard - 160

Omnispex, 3 Arc- Rifles, Refractor Field

 

1 Onager - 130

Icarus Array, Cognis Stubber

 

Skitarii Maniple

 

5 Vanguard - 80

Omnispex, 1 Arc- Rifle

 

5 Vanguard - 80

Omnispex, 1 Arc- Rifle

 

1 Dragoon - 45

 

Total of 1850

 

The Knights can deal with MEQs and lighter AVs when shooting and with TEQs and heavy AVs in CC.

The Dominus Maniple helps you against flyers (Onager and TL Arc- Rifles), AVs and hordes, plus the Domi can repair your Knights when damaged.

Skitarii Maniple is good against AVs and hordes, the Dragoon can help your Knights out of CC when stuck in combat with a big blob you can't bring down fast enough.

 

Money wise you just need the Getting started box, 1 box of Vanguards, 1 Dragoon and 3 Knights.

Edited March 16, 2016 by DeStinyFiSh

[Seneschal]

A very interesting army you have posted frater. In my calculations it fits well within my budget and I think I can spare some money on top of that with a store discount but I wonder, is this army an army strong enough to bring to a tournament?

 

I ask because most of my games are competitive, meaning that the organized events are usually the only games I get to play so I seek for a reliable army which can compete with the usual ones. 

 

On the other hand, do you think I can fit in there a squad of five Rangers. I really love their looks and I am wondering if they actually perform as part of the army well. 

 

Said that I am much grateful for all the feedback received. Thanks from a fellow Questoris!

[DeStinyFiSh]

Frater Dominus is not the Nickname, I did the same mistake in the past

 

I am a beer and pretzel gamer, no idea how competative this list is. Propably you can do much better with a list from a more experienced gamer.

 

Regarding the Rangers: I like them and I field them every time, but from a pure competative point of view, Vanguard performe a lot better most of the time.

But you can use the ranger heads and the vanguard weapons, there should be no problem doing this.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'm mostly into 30k right now, and I've been extensively reading the Questoris House rules. It's basically the same list, but with some more support upgrades and a lot of fun household ranks. Basically along with the 40k big knight, normal knight, baby knight, you've also got a smart knight, an angry knight, a fast knight, a surly melee knight, an artillery knight, and a stompy knight, all ranks that modify the profiles of existing knights.

[Seneschal]

Haha, indeed, I have finished to read the Questoris Crusade list and it was quite inspiring. I like the idea of so many ranks within a Knight Household and I must say that the Uhlan is my favorite. 

[ElectricPaladin]

Haha, indeed, I have finished to read the Questoris Crusade list and it was quite inspiring. I like the idea of so many ranks within a Knight Household and I must say that the Uhlan is my favorite. 

 

That's the surly jerk. Purposefully sucking at shooting so there are more guys to stomp later. Jerks.

[Seneschal]

But in all honesty, is there a chance that the list above will be compatible with the HH, should I ever be able to play a game. I would like to have a working core for both settings, just in case. 

[DeStinyFiSh]

At the moment the HH armys are not legal in 40k and vice versa

[ElectricPaladin]

At the moment the HH armys are not legal in 40k and vice versa

 

What does "legal" mean? If someone will play against it, it's perfectly legal. I mean, personally I don't think I'd ever bother running my knights in 40k because the 40k Imperial Knights list is boring as  compared to the Questoris Knight list. It's not a matter of power - it's a matter of fun. If I find a Dark Eldar player willing to go up against my Salamanders Legion, who's to say that's not "legal?"

 

And, on the other hand, if you're talking about a tournament, well, there are lots of things that the game was designed for that aren't considered "legal" in some tournaments. So forget them.

[MoGuy]

I have read that it is not advised to take a 30K army against 40K Eldar, Necrons, Tau or Space Marines. I have played a 1000 point game of my Necrons (no formations, no Decurion) against 1000 points of 30K Alpha Legion. I tabled my opponent on turn 4. There are certain kinds of weapons and armour that are much harder to get in 30K than they are in 40K. 

 

However, if both players just want to field their armies against each other it is fine. Just be aware that there could be a noticeable difference of power!

[Cactus]

I think the last three replies have missed the point.

 

But in all honesty, is there a chance that the list above will be compatible with the HH, should I ever be able to play a game. I would like to have a working core for both settings, just in case. 

 

I assume that knights that can bust tanks, blast infantry and shoot down flyers are just as effective in the Age of Darkness system (using the Questoris Crusade army list) as they are in core 40k (using Codex: Knights). Skitarii have not yet appeared in a 30k army list, but you could repurpose the infantry as allied militia, or heretic cult, if that's your thing, using the army list from volume V: Tempest. It would be difficult to find a place for the onager and ironstrider.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Cactus

[Seneschal]

Well lets change the question then. Will the provided list perform reliably in a competitive game against the most common armies or alliances?

 

I ask because I am deciding on how to go about this army and while I do like the look of the provided list I want some feedback if the unit choices are what we are to consider as "meta". 

 

I am sorry for being that pedantic with my questions but I really like the idea of this new army and while I have a limited budged I would like to get the most "bang for my buck" as it is common to say. 

 

We can also skip the HH conversation for I think it should be addressed in the AoD area (or at least I think it belongs there, correct me if I am wrong please), but also because playing a HH game is more in the realm of the remote for me since only a gaming community in my area does actively play HH armies.

[ElectricPaladin]

From what I have heard from those who have tried it, 30k armies do reasonably well against 40k armies.

[Dread]

I've been playing 2k armies lately with 3 knights and skitarii allies against neurons, specifically ducariun. I've managed to blast them off the table but lose from lack of objectives points. So I believe his mix is a good one and can win, lose or draw depending on the mission. I've only had 2 games so far bug Friday night having another game. This time in taking the uncreator gauntlet for sure. I believe it will be a good thing to have to help balance out against the heavy shooting from the crons.

[Emicus]

How your army will perform in your meta is impossible for us to tell. We don't know what lists, playstyles or house rules play with. Lots of people talk about the 'meta' and the only one anyone can get a grasp on is the high level tournaments because they get netlisted from and circulated a lot. But most people sont play those kinds of games so it's a poor representation of 'meta' that applies to you.

 

Unless you play in that environment of course. But then I doubt you'd be asking!

 

As for fw/no fw that's up to you and your mates. While I can appreciate that FW isn't all awesome... Nobody at my club brings anything unless it's filthy. And anyone that can say 'oh fw isn't borked' while facing off against artillery with toughness values, rapier laser destroyers, vultures, knights atrapos or similar needs a head check.

 

There is certainly insane units in 40k. No doubt. But not in every slot for the same army. When you are then able to fill in the gaps with nutters units from FW your list will be better than if you don't.

 

(Yep. I don't like it myself.) :p

[Seneschal]

Well my "meta" I guess is pretty much what is common in gameclubs which thrive with tournaments. So you have minmaxed Necron decurions, Eldar jetbike and D spam armies, Centurion-stars, Wyvern spam and so on and so forth. 

Either way I do really like the idea of the army above and I am already formulating the image of it in my head. Now onto some other questions:

 

• How do you suggest to assemble the Skitarii for painting?
• How do you suggest to assemble the Imperial Knights for painting?
• How do you magnetize an Imperial Knight and the Onager?
• If should I budget for a FW Imperial Knight which one do you suggest?

[MagicHat]

I assemble the arms, the torso with the head and then sprays and paints the pieces separately.

The knight I don't actually remember. The armour plates separately, at the very least.

 

This is a pretty good guide IMO for magnetizing a Knight.

 

I might post up how I magnetized my onager on Sunday.

[ElectricPaladin]

Assemble the knight's "skeleton," paint it, then add the primed armor plates and paint them one at a time.

 

I found the knight kit to be a real pain in the butt to magnetize. I wouldn't try to make every knight a 100% multi-knight. Look at the kit and see what looks easiest. Paladin/errant is relatively easy, for example.

[MagicHat]

Alright, got some pictures of how I magnetized an Onager.

Sadly, I find that my knowledge of English is insufficient to actually explain the procedure in a satisfying manner. If you have any questions, feel free to ask and I will try to answer.

Suspect there are easier ways to do it, but I hope this will help anyway.

First, the Onager assembled.

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx35/Potatisbudet/Skitarii/P1020899_zpsfkickhgj.jpg

 

Waist joint. I drilled and cut out space for a cube magnet (got it for free and have no other use for them).

Used green stuff to keep in in place.

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx35/Potatisbudet/Skitarii/P1020900_zpsr4st2mgy.jpg

 

Legs magnetized to the base, to make it easier to move and store. Also, means I can temporarily remove it from the base in case of hills or defence lines and the like.

Extended the leg platforms with greenstuff to hide the magnet from a top perspective.

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx35/Potatisbudet/Skitarii/P1020901_zpsxy7wyufx.jpg

 

Inside of the waist joint, and the main weapon magnet.

Greenstuff to keep the waist magnet in place. For the main weapon, I cut away the middle of the ridge, as seen, then drilled all the way inside. Secured it with greenstuff.

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx35/Potatisbudet/Skitarii/P1020902_zps81wsodzh.jpg

 

The Mechanicum icon/Icarus missiles. Was a bit annoyed that I had to do this one, but it worked out.

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx35/Potatisbudet/Skitarii/P1020903_zpsffiyzcop.jpg