The Silver Skulls Conspiracy

[SickSix]

So recently, probably starting after the publication of the HH short story 'Iron Within' there has been mention here and there that the Silver Skulls may be Iron Warriors loyalist successors.

 

As a Silver Skulls player and someone fairly up to speed on their history, I find this extremely unlikely. Nothing in their history, culture, or fighting style lends themselves to be Iron Warriors.

 

The most likely scenario, for a conspiracy, is that the Silver Skulls were the Chapter Given to Barabas Dantioch. This kind of made sense because Dantioch was famous for his iron/silver mask that was permanently attached to his face and in the shape of a stylized skull. However,

Dantioch is killed before the Heresy is over, preventing him from adopting an Ultramarines chapter of his own

 

Have any of you heard this or put any credence behind it? The Silver Skulls are a RT era chapter. I think any seeming relation to them and what is happening in the Heresy is pure coincidence.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Brother Tyler

[Sheesh Mode]

So recently, probably starting after the publication of the HH short story 'Iron Within' there has been mention here and there that the Silver Skulls may be Iron Warriors loyalist successors.

 

As a Silver Skulls player and someone fairly up to speed on their history, I find this extremely unlikely. Nothing in their history, culture, or fighting style lends themselves to be Iron Warriors.

 

The most likely scenario, for a conspiracy, is that the Silver Skulls were the Chapter Given to Barabas Dantioch. This kind of made sense because Dantioch was famous for his iron/silver mask that was permanently attached to his face and in the shape of a stylized skull. However,

Dantioch is killed before the Heresy is over, preventing him from adopting an Ultramarines chapter of his own

 

Have any of you heard this or put any credence behind it? The Silver Skulls are a RT era chapter. I think any seeming relation to them and what is happening in the Heresy is pure coincidence.

Marines placed under his command could later be gathered and utilized as a chapter post-scouring.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

So recently, probably starting after the publication of the HH short story 'Iron Within' there has been mention here and there that the Silver Skulls may be Iron Warriors loyalist successors.

 

As a Silver Skulls player and someone fairly up to speed on their history, I find this extremely unlikely. Nothing in their history, culture, or fighting style lends themselves to be Iron Warriors.

 

The most likely scenario, for a conspiracy, is that the Silver Skulls were the Chapter Given to Barabas Dantioch. This kind of made sense because Dantioch was famous for his iron/silver mask that was permanently attached to his face and in the shape of a stylized skull. However,

Dantioch is killed before the Heresy is over, preventing him from adopting an Ultramarines chapter of his own

 

Have any of you heard this or put any credence behind it? The Silver Skulls are a RT era chapter. I think any seeming relation to them and what is happening in the Heresy is pure coincidence.

Marines placed under his command could later be gathered and utilized as a chapter post-scouring.

Eh, not likely. The majority of survivors of Pharos are under the command of Polux and there weren't many. I think it was a couple of scouts who operated independently from Polux's command and then only a few dozen Ultramarines. Hardly enough to start a Chapter and IIRC, Polux is supposed to be the founder of the Crimson Fists, is he not?

 

EDIT: Sotha is also the future homeworld of the Scythes of the Emperor and the Ultramarines stationed there in 30K wore crossed scythes to show their duty station and I think even the fact they survived the Night Lords' assault.

 

The theory has been around since Iron Within when Dantioc was first introduced and the introduction of Sotha was used to try and give it more credence, but there are too many discrepancies and holes in the theory so I've personally seen very few people take stock in it.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Kol Saresk

[totgeboren]

I just woke and can't remember where I read it, but somewhere it was said that Dantioch wasn't the only Iron Warrior to remain loyal to the Emperor. To the contrary, the way the IW were spread out in isolated little garrisons around the time of the HH meant that many garrisons rejected Perturabo.

Not to mention that the main IW legion could not possibly have had the time to send out battle groups to every single garrison, and they would not have had the resources to make these heralds of Perturabo strong enough to simply dominate the garrisons (that did not turn straight away) into submission, considering their fortess-building ways.

 

So all these IW garrisons stuck close to loyalist legion holdings, were they all destroyed? Seems rather unlikely, and so the theory is simply that those being inside or on the border of the 500 worlds, and whose actions proved they remained loyal to the Emperor were given refuge within the UM, a sort of witness protection program, considering the post-siege of Terra sentiments in the Imperium regarding marines from traitor legions.

 

Now to be fair, I don't think the Silver Skulls were originally envisioned to be IW loyalists, though their obsession with divination feels rather Oracle of Delphi Greek myth to me. But it doesn't matter all that much. 10k years with a new homeworld can do remarkable things, just look at the supposed UM Mortifactors! Head-hunting ancestor worshipping cannibal voodoo marines. Doesn't really scream UM does it?

Edited April 1, 2016 by totgeboren

[Kol Saresk]

So far the only other official Loyalist Iron Warrior(to my knowledge) would be the one from FW's Extinction who had to fight off an Alpha Legion attack. Vhalen at Paramar V I believe.

 

I don't think any mention is of him following that event.

 

So it's possible that a different Iron Warrior is the "father" of the Silver Skulls, but it is unlikely Dantioch is that Iron Warrior. In my opinion, at least.

[lokkorex]

There's also mentions of a loyalist warsmith killing an emperors children lord commander in betrayal, and i think there's a bunch of loyalist iron warriors in ravenlord i think?

[Sandlemad]

There's also Narik Dreygur. The Iron Warriors seem to have, if not the most loyalists, then at least the most highly visible ones.

 

Given the events at the end of Pharos, it seems unlikely. Sotha always felt like a red herring anyway, what with the 199th Company and the later chapter.

 

Is there anything supporting the theory besides similarity in iconography and Dantioch being a prominent loyalist?

[Charlo]

Thier battle cry on the lexicanum page mentions big guns.

 

Proof enough :P

[Reyner]

Wasn't there another loyalist Iron Warrior Warsmith mentioned in a recent black library book?

[Legatus]

The Sons of Orar were founded at a later date in honour of an already deceased hero of the Ultramarines Legion, so it is possible that the Silver Skulls were founded at a later date in honour of Dantioch.

[Praetor of Calth]

I think we'll see the remaining Ultramarines from the Sotha Defense company go onto to form the Silver Skulls tbh. The events surrounding the Pharos explain their character as a chapter.

 

Obession w/predicting the future- Received visions from the Pharis about the future

Chapter Master wears an Iron Mask- Dantioch wears an Iron mask

Chapter symbol looks like the IW legion symbol- Under command on an IW

Penchant for sieges- Commanded by an IW and IF

 

Dantioch obviously won't be the 1st Chapter Master but it's easy to see how the chapter of the Silver Skulls will come to be.

 

We have a very similar "origin" arc for the Crimson Fists.

 

"Crimson Fists"- Is a reference to Polux's Crimson Fist

Blue Colour Scheme & Accepting of the C.A - Served with the Ultramarines in the Heresy/Respect for Guilliman

[Kol Saresk]

I think we'll see the remaining Ultramarines from the Sotha Defense company go onto to form the Silver Skulls tbh. The events surrounding the Pharos explain their character as a chapter.

 

Obession w/predicting the future- Received visions from the Pharis about the future

Chapter Master wears an Iron Mask- Dantioch wears an Iron mask

Chapter symbol looks like the IW legion symbol- Under command on an IW

Penchant for sieges- Commanded by an IW and IF

 

Dantioch obviously won't be the 1st Chapter Master but it's easy to see how the chapter of the Silver Skulls will come to be.

So then what explains the Silver Skulls being put on a completely different homeworld and how does the 119th's iconography change from crossed scythes to the Silver Skull?

[Marshal Rohr]

To be honest, Dantioch feels like a later inclusion. Like Abnett got a brief to write about the Pharos before he was told it had to include Dantioch. So whoever wrote Dantiochs first story obviously wanted him to be their founder and then later down the line it was determined he'd be killed.

 

More than likely their origin will be a later founding Ultra successor that considers his legacy their origin.

[Spinsanity]

I think the Doom Legion sounds more IronWarrior-ish (if that's a thing) to me than the Silver Skulls do. They have very similar scheme and iconography, they are a garisson force, and they man one of the biggest fortresses/gun platforms of the Imperium...

[Praetor of Calth]

 

I think we'll see the remaining Ultramarines from the Sotha Defense company go onto to form the Silver Skulls tbh. The events surrounding the Pharos explain their character as a chapter.

Obession w/predicting the future- Received visions from the Pharis about the future

Chapter Master wears an Iron Mask- Dantioch wears an Iron mask

Chapter symbol looks like the IW legion symbol- Under command on an IW

Penchant for sieges- Commanded by an IW and IF

Dantioch obviously won't be the 1st Chapter Master but it's easy to see how the chapter of the Silver Skulls will come to be.

So then what explains the Silver Skulls being put on a completely different homeworld and how does the 119th's iconography change from crossed scythes to the Silver Skull?

The 119th don't become the Scythes of the Emperor. (Source- Laurie Goulding) So their iconography is obviously going to change or be removed by the end of the Heresy/2nd founding.

 

I fail to see how Sotha not being their homeworkd, means they won't go onto to become the Silver Skulls. There are an ubtold number of garrison forces across the galaxy, some of which may well form Chapters of their own in the 2nd founding. Will every single one of those chapters take their garrison world as their homeworld. Nope.

 

At this point I don't even see how anyone could argue that this Chapter won't become the Silver Skulls. It's more obvious than Omegon being Janus and Loken not being a psyker.

[Vodunius]

I would point out that the various GW departments don't always play well with eachother. 

 

Back in 4th edition I think it was, GW Central removed one of the tank variants from the IG Codex, Forge World continued producing their Gryphonne pattern of said variant and the rules to use it. Result? In the subsequent Tyranid Codex planet Gryphonne got eaten. 

 

Forge World has gone with a more silver-skullish look to their Iron Warriors, so I can't help wonder if Black Library killed off X because they disagreed with where they were heading..

[Sandlemad]

 

 

I think we'll see the remaining Ultramarines from the Sotha Defense company go onto to form the Silver Skulls tbh. The events surrounding the Pharos explain their character as a chapter.

Obession w/predicting the future- Received visions from the Pharis about the future

Chapter Master wears an Iron Mask- Dantioch wears an Iron mask

Chapter symbol looks like the IW legion symbol- Under command on an IW

Penchant for sieges- Commanded by an IW and IF

Dantioch obviously won't be the 1st Chapter Master but it's easy to see how the chapter of the Silver Skulls will come to be.

So then what explains the Silver Skulls being put on a completely different homeworld and how does the 119th's iconography change from crossed scythes to the Silver Skull?

The 119th don't become the Scythes of the Emperor. (Source- Laurie Goulding) So their iconography is obviously going to change or be removed by the end of the Heresy/2nd founding.

 

I fail to see how Sotha not being their homeworkd, means they won't go onto to become the Silver Skulls. There are an ubtold number of garrison forces across the galaxy, some of which may well form Chapters of their own in the 2nd founding. Will every single one of those chapters take their garrison world as their homeworld. Nope.

 

At this point I don't even see how anyone could argue that this Chapter won't become the Silver Skulls. It's more obvious than Omegon being Janus and Loken not being a psyker.

 

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1789

 

So there's where Laurie Goulding says they're not a seond founding chapter but it's pretty clear they do have a connection to Sotha and its heritage. Later chapters having connections to heresy-era stuff without an obvious founder or immediate connection had come up before, e.g. the slight murkiness around the Executioners, as well as the Sons of Orar mentioned above by Legatus.

 

Is there a source for chapter master Argentius wearing a silver mask? Or their penchant for sieges, I haven't come across that before. Likewise if youi could

 

The visions, maybe, particularly as its been emphasised in the audio sequel (prequel?) to Pharos but then that could very easily be a homeworld custom, like their head-taking.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I think we'll see the remaining Ultramarines from the Sotha Defense company go onto to form the Silver Skulls tbh. The events surrounding the Pharos explain their character as a chapter.

Obession w/predicting the future- Received visions from the Pharis about the future

Chapter Master wears an Iron Mask- Dantioch wears an Iron mask

Chapter symbol looks like the IW legion symbol- Under command on an IW

Penchant for sieges- Commanded by an IW and IF

Dantioch obviously won't be the 1st Chapter Master but it's easy to see how the chapter of the Silver Skulls will come to be.

So then what explains the Silver Skulls being put on a completely different homeworld and how does the 119th's iconography change from crossed scythes to the Silver Skull?

The 119th don't become the Scythes of the Emperor. (Source- Laurie Goulding) So their iconography is obviously going to change or be removed by the end of the Heresy/2nd founding.

 

I fail to see how Sotha not being their homeworkd, means they won't go onto to become the Silver Skulls. There are an ubtold number of garrison forces across the galaxy, some of which may well form Chapters of their own in the 2nd founding. Will every single one of those chapters take their garrison world as their homeworld. Nope.

 

At this point I don't even see how anyone could argue that this Chapter won't become the Silver Skulls. It's more obvious than Omegon being Janus and Loken not being a psyker.

Laurie Goulding also says that Mortug never left Istvaan III, something that is clearly contradicted by FW's Book 6, which explicitly states he was in the Nostraman sector fifty years after the Heresy. So until it hits print, I remain extremely skeptical of anything Laurie Goulding says on the internet.

[Praetor of Calth]

 

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1789

 

So there's where Laurie Goulding says they're not a seond founding chapter but it's pretty clear they do have a connection to Sotha and its heritage. Later chapters having connections to heresy-era stuff without an obvious founder or immediate connection had come up before, e.g. the slight murkiness around the Executioners, as well as the Sons of Orar mentioned above by Legatus.

 

Is there a source for chapter master Argentius wearing a silver mask? Or their penchant for sieges, I haven't come across that before. Likewise if youi could

 

The visions, maybe, particularly as its been emphasised in the audio sequel (prequel?) to Pharos but then that could very easily be a homeworld custom, like their head-taking.

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I can't actually remember where I read that Argentius wore a mask, the Silver Skulls books maybe? It could well turn out that it was something I misread on this forum, that I subconsciously took as fact. If it does turn out to be that, please accept my apologies.

 

 

 

The visions could indeed well be a homeworld custom, but that just seems a little too boring for one of the more reknowned successor chapters of 40k.

 

As for the penchant for Sieges, not so much the Skulls, but Argentius is hinted to have had. This quote comes from him;

 

"Victory does not always rest with the big guns: but, if we rest in front of them we shall be lost

 

Silver Skulls geneseed bearing Ultramarine markers. (Source- Either FFG Deathwatch books/S.S Novels. Although IIRC there have been mentions of this in earlier GW publications)

 

Initiates have to climb a mountain to be accepted into the chapter. (Upon which the Fortress Monastery/ Base of Operation in Mount Pharos) Not so much hard evidence, as an interesting parallel. (Source- FFG Deathwatch IIRC)"

Edited April 1, 2016 by Praetor of Calth

[SickSix]

Well as to the original homeworld, unless I am severely mistaken, Varsavia is not actually their first homeworld. One of their short stories is all about going back to their original homeworld to retrieve the first chapter banner.

 

So homeworld origin doesn't really mean anything. But other than iconography there is really nothing tying them to the IW.

 

It's very possible the author of 'Iron Within' hoped/intended for Dantioch to go on and be a loyalist successor chapter master. But as has been mentioned, someone else probably wasn't on the same page. Likewise, it is just as likely the SS could have been named in his honor by surviving marines that served with/under him.

 

I have not read Pharos and wasn't even aware it was out until I started researching this. So I will have to acquire that book now. But I think there are too many reaches to make to connect these dots.

[SalvationOfReason]

I've brought this up in another (similar) thread, but it's highly possible that the Silver Skulls are a Chapter raised in tribute to Dantioch, who was held in high regard by Guilliman. The Chapter icon, instead of being a blatant "oh look, we're Iron Warriors" callback, is instead Dantioch's mask, immortalized for all time (as a sign of respect).

[thevoodooman]

I forget the name but there's the tetrach? On calth with a silver mask too, the one with a busted arm that rescues the dreadnought in betrayal of calth

[Lords of Preyspire]

I'm hoping they are an ultras second founding. I'm going to theme a heresy army around an early version. I personally think it's to 'on the nose' to have a loyalist iron warriors chapter sitting in silver with an iron hands icon.

[SickSix]

I forget the name but there's the tetrach? On calth with a silver mask too, the one with a busted arm that rescues the dreadnought in betrayal of calth

Good catch. So lesser known character but that opens the door.

 

I'm hoping they are an ultras second founding. I'm going to theme a heresy army around an early version. I personally think it's to 'on the nose' to have a loyalist iron warriors chapter sitting in silver with an iron hands icon.

Iron Hands icon? You mean Iron Warriors right? Thats the thing, the scheme and icon are soooo similar to IW that it seems someone may have intended the connection.

 

I am playing sceptic in this thread because of my heavy personal bias and investment in the Silver Skulls. I love Dantioch and love the idea that my SS are in his honor. However I just haven't seen enough to say thats how it went down yet. And the SS are not any more partial to siege warfare than any other chapter.

 

So I find it fascinating (and slightly frustrating) to not know the origin story of my chapter. But it is also liberating to take a (at the time) lesser fleshed out successor chapter becuase I had some freedom in how I modeled them and set up my personal fluff for them.

[Lords of Preyspire]

Derp. Yeah, my mind was thinking iron warriors but apparently my hands didn't agree.

 

I'm just getting into reading some of the books and I'm really liking the fluff. I have wanted to run a librarian heavy force for ages and was trying trying to choose between BA, loyalist 30k 1000 sons or blood Ravens.

 

I came across the SS by accident when I was reading about different librarian classes. Pretty happy I did. My first D and D character (*nerd alert*) from probably about 20 years ago now was a divination Mage. I believe that was a very early portent that I was destined to play Silver Skulls in some capacity. ;)

 

Anywho, I'm in your camp with this. The chapter taking its icon in honor of Dantioc is really cool, however, on the whole I'm not keen on them being much more related to the iron warriors then that.

 

Ps been enjoying the YouTube channel

 

Pps apologies for mistakes in the post, I'm on the worlds tinies phone .

Edited January 5, 2017 by Lords of Preyspire