Path of Heaven - Discussion

[b1soul]

I look forward to reading BotS, Scare, and PoH as a trilogy

 

It's gonna be a great experience

[DarkChaplain]

 

This book certainly seems to have set up alot of plot threads for upcoming books.

 

But more importantly for me, just how on Earth is Sanguinius going to get to Terra. This book showed us the Scars had to go to extreme measures and they weren't even on the other side of the galaxy.

 

I want to say the Pharos will have something to do with it, but after "Pharos", the novel I don't really see how. Here's hoping we get a BA book that runs parallel to this one.

 

I could be remembering it incorrectly but I am sure that The Lion introduced us to a Mechanicum held Xenos or mutated human child who had the ability to give / take you where you want if you have a clear enough vision of what that is...it's been a long time since i read that story but I am sure that is how the Dark Angels were able to abush and smash the Night Lords as comprehensivly as they did at the beginning of Prince of Crows.

 

At the end of Pharos Sanguinius near demanded that the Lion be tracked down and brought before him, it could be that through the events of Angels of Caliban this happens and the truth of how he has been able to jump his fleet to where he chooses is revealed and that is how the BA return to Terra?

 

I've not got the White Scars latest outing as of yet but from what ive read here it does not dissapoint!

 

 

The Lion is hunting Curze, and we'll get to that by June I believe. But Tuchulcha, the thingy-thing you are refering to, has a role in Gav's Legacy of Caliban trilogy for 40k, and that may even play into Angels of Caliban, so I doubt it will be how the Blood Angels get to Terra.

 

I'm expecting one more Imperium Secundus novel which ends with Sanguinius finding his way to Terra, after getting completely sick of the charade.

[Augustus]

"Hey Tuchulcha. See that there fleet?"

"Yes. Do you want me to move you around them so you can surprise attack them with everything you got?"

"No no no. See that there sun? Move that fleet into its core."

 

Game,  blouses. 

[JH79]

 

 

This book certainly seems to have set up alot of plot threads for upcoming books.

 

But more importantly for me, just how on Earth is Sanguinius going to get to Terra. This book showed us the Scars had to go to extreme measures and they weren't even on the other side of the galaxy.

 

I want to say the Pharos will have something to do with it, but after "Pharos", the novel I don't really see how. Here's hoping we get a BA book that runs parallel to this one.

 

I could be remembering it incorrectly but I am sure that The Lion introduced us to a Mechanicum held Xenos or mutated human child who had the ability to give / take you where you want if you have a clear enough vision of what that is...it's been a long time since i read that story but I am sure that is how the Dark Angels were able to abush and smash the Night Lords as comprehensivly as they did at the beginning of Prince of Crows.

 

At the end of Pharos Sanguinius near demanded that the Lion be tracked down and brought before him, it could be that through the events of Angels of Caliban this happens and the truth of how he has been able to jump his fleet to where he chooses is revealed and that is how the BA return to Terra?

 

I've not got the White Scars latest outing as of yet but from what ive read here it does not dissapoint!

 

 

The Lion is hunting Curze, and we'll get to that by June I believe. But Tuchulcha, the thingy-thing you are refering to, has a role in Gav's Legacy of Caliban trilogy for 40k, and that may even play into Angels of Caliban, so I doubt it will be how the Blood Angels get to Terra.

 

I'm expecting one more Imperium Secundus novel which ends with Sanguinius finding his way to Terra, after getting completely sick of the charade.

 

 

Thanks for the info re the tie into the 40k lore. I've not really had any exposure to the Dark Angels outside of the Horus Heresy so that is interesting to know. I did find myself thinking it would be out of character for the Lion to be open about something such as Tuchulcha (i do prefer the sound of thingy-thing though!) with his brothers in Imperium Secundus, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out!

[drooling blood]

Magnus helped the Salamanders get to Terra, wouldnt be surprised if he helps his pal sangy out.

He follows Magnus. Everyone else follows Him. Something, something

[Praetor of Calth]

Dark Chaplain pretty much nailed my thoughts of Tuchulcha, I can't see it being used for those exact reasons.

 

Magnus is a good possibility, and if he's seen to be manipulating more events then his appearance in "Deathfire" will appear slightly less Deus Ex. As long as we see him helping the traitors too.

 

Although, I'm going to throw a curveball here. Bare with me.

 

- Sanguinius meets the Silent King at some point.

- Pharos is hinted to be off Necron origin.

- Pharos blast not only attracts the 'Nids, it wakes the Silent King.

- The Silent King tries to warn Sanguinius of the Great Devourer. You must warn Terra blah blah.

- SK does something to the Pharos that helps Sangy and Polux get through the Ruinstorm

- Cue "The Path of Hell" sequel.

 

I honestly would not be surprised at this point.

[Augustus]

I foresee the Emperor bringing Sanguinius back much in the same way as Magnus brought back the Salamanders. 

I see the Lion convincing Russ to help him encircle the Traitors, telling Sanguinius "you must hold!" in a very Gandalfy sort of way. As of now you we know the difference in arrival in Sanguinius and the Lion and Russ is between this point in the Heresy and a month (the length of the siege).

[HaSY]

Jaghatai thought about the Emperor in Path of Heaven (non spoiler)
 

So I fight for a Father who I never loved, against a brother that I did. I defend an empire that never wanted me against an army that would have taken me in a heartbeat.

And yet the oath had been made. The promise could not be broken.

 

...

 

‘My Father was neither a monster nor a simpleton. He did a thing only because it had to be done. Perhaps He could have explained more, but I will not believe, even now, that there was not a reason for His choices. He led us to Ullanor, then left. After that, He was silent, and only the words of the Sigillite emerged from Terra. What project could have kept Him from the Crusade that He instigated? Only one that was necessary for its survival. And so I have been pondering all His words to me, trying to find the ones that explain it, and I curse that we spoke so little, and that our minds were so unlike to one another.

‘In the end, I come back to the same place. My Father hated the lie as much as I did. He knew the Imperium could not last as long as its foundations were knee-deep in the warp. It was necessary to use these mutants and witches, but they could not be allowed to endure. They would be passing tools, like the warriors of thunder that united Terra – blades that would grow blunt and be cast aside. We were always told that the Great Crusade was the end of things, and all else was subordinate to it. I believe this now to be false. The Crusade was launched to give Him something he needed – knowledge, perhaps. Maybe forbidden, maybe lost, maybe xenos, maybe dragged from the aether. But after finding it He went back, and put into place His scheme of eternity, and for the first time since the Ages of Strife His mind was no longer turned towards His creations. Thus they wandered. Thus they fell.’

[Petitioner's City]

 

Jaghatai thought about the Emperor in Path of Heaven (non spoiler)

 

So I fight for a Father who I never loved, against a brother that I did. I defend an empire that never wanted me against an army that would have taken me in a heartbeat.

And yet the oath had been made. The promise could not be broken.

 

...

 

‘My Father was neither a monster nor a simpleton. He did a thing only because it had to be done. Perhaps He could have explained more, but I will not believe, even now, that there was not a reason for His choices. He led us to Ullanor, then left. After that, He was silent, and only the words of the Sigillite emerged from Terra. What project could have kept Him from the Crusade that He instigated? Only one that was necessary for its survival. And so I have been pondering all His words to me, trying to find the ones that explain it, and I curse that we spoke so little, and that our minds were so unlike to one another.

‘In the end, I come back to the same place. My Father hated the lie as much as I did. He knew the Imperium could not last as long as its foundations were knee-deep in the warp. It was necessary to use these mutants and witches, but they could not be allowed to endure. They would be passing tools, like the warriors of thunder that united Terra – blades that would grow blunt and be cast aside. We were always told that the Great Crusade was the end of things, and all else was subordinate to it. I believe this now to be false. The Crusade was launched to give Him something he needed – knowledge, perhaps. Maybe forbidden, maybe lost, maybe xenos, maybe dragged from the aether. But after finding it He went back, and put into place His scheme of eternity, and for the first time since the Ages of Strife His mind was no longer turned towards His creations. Thus they wandered. Thus they fell.’

 

 

The realisation of the Throne as a way to sidestep the Warp and either use or create anew a webway also helps make sense of why the Chaos powers tried to stop him so ... suddenly(?). The station with the prototype Throne is about 50(?) years old, at least, and that kinda also matches, probably coincidentally, certain events in Lorgar's life. However as chaos was active throughout the period, perhaps I'm drawing false correlations. 

[Ashur]

If I understand well this quote from Jaghatai, they are trying to explain some of the emperor's actions as not arbitrary but necessary because time was running out and he just recently had access to the technology necessary to bypass the warp.

 

The proto-Golden Throne suddenly makes more sense in the context of the story.

 

I really need this book. I hope to get more glimpses into the secrets of the Imperium and Jaghatai relationship with his father.

 

It seems Wrigth did it again.

[Saa]

Jaghatai thought about the Emperor in Path of Heaven (non spoiler)

 

So I fight for a Father who I never loved, against a brother that I did. I defend an empire that never wanted me against an army that would have taken me in a heartbeat.

And yet the oath had been made. The promise could not be broken.

 

...

 

‘My Father was neither a monster nor a simpleton. He did a thing only because it had to be done. Perhaps He could have explained more, but I will not believe, even now, that there was not a reason for His choices. He led us to Ullanor, then left. After that, He was silent, and only the words of the Sigillite emerged from Terra. What project could have kept Him from the Crusade that He instigated? Only one that was necessary for its survival. And so I have been pondering all His words to me, trying to find the ones that explain it, and I curse that we spoke so little, and that our minds were so unlike to one another.

‘In the end, I come back to the same place. My Father hated the lie as much as I did. He knew the Imperium could not last as long as its foundations were knee-deep in the warp. It was necessary to use these mutants and witches, but they could not be allowed to endure. They would be passing tools, like the warriors of thunder that united Terra – blades that would grow blunt and be cast aside. We were always told that the Great Crusade was the end of things, and all else was subordinate to it. I believe this now to be false. The Crusade was launched to give Him something he needed – knowledge, perhaps. Maybe forbidden, maybe lost, maybe xenos, maybe dragged from the aether. But after finding it He went back, and put into place His scheme of eternity, and for the first time since the Ages of Strife His mind was no longer turned towards His creations. Thus they wandered. Thus they fell.’

That right there is pure fried gold. I'm buying it tomorrow now. I was going to wait til I'd finished Pharos but now I have to read this.

 

Saa......

 

......or something like that

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Im only a few chapters in it, but am finding it..."clunkier" than Wraight's normal stuff. 

[Apothecary Vaddon]

It picks up after the first 100 pages or so nicely

[Kelborn]

Though I am currently at chapter 5 or so, I do enjoy the WS vs. EC until now.

 

I'm a bit afraid of what will come after the first 100 pages....do I get addicted? oO

[DarKnight]

I definitely enjoyed 'Path of Heaven' the most of any HH novel since Betrayer. Eidolon & Mortarion are presented as competent which has been my biggest issue with the way the stories have gone so far. Also, whoever did the art was AMAZING & I hope he gets commissioned more often. Also, the Khan's opinions on the Emperor & the Crusade in general are great insights.

 

The breakdown of the Legions into their eventual warband structure was interesting to see as well. It happens all the time in real life, but it's amusing to see traitors expect loyalty when they've already broken the most solemn oaths. Typhon couldn't wait to get away from Mortarion, whom he's probably hated since he ended the Librarius. Eidolon probably wants nothing to do with Fulgrim, and couldn't find hm even if he did.

[Brother Dougal]

I just finished reading it today, and some of the final musings about the Emperor have given me a new point of view on the whole 'reason for leaving the Crusade and telling no one why' thing he did that I always wondered about. I'm not sure I can talk about it here though, that might be a major spoiler. Is there a thread where I can post this out? Or at least see if anyone else had this idea too?

[b1soul]

I just finished reading it today, and some of the final musings about the Emperor have given me a new point of view on the whole 'reason for leaving the Crusade and telling no one why' thing he did that I always wondered about. I'm not sure I can talk about it here though, that might be a major spoiler. Is there a thread where I can post this out? Or at least see if anyone else had this idea too?

Use the spoiler tag [spoiler ] [/spoiler ]

[Plague Angel]

Im only a few chapters in it, but am finding it..."clunkier" than Wraight's normal stuff. 

 

It starts off that way and picks up once all the threads come together.

 

The afterword says that he really struggled to write this one. I think that shows, but I think it was well worth it in the end.

[Karthak]

The breakdown of the Legions into their eventual warband structure was interesting to see as well. It happens all the time in real life, but it's amusing to see traitors expect loyalty when they've already broken the most solemn oaths. Typhon couldn't wait to get away from Mortarion, whom he's probably hated since he ended the Librarius. Eidolon probably wants nothing to do with Fulgrim, and couldn't find hm even if he did.

The latest Forge World book also goes into this; how the traitors were riven with factionalism and in-fighting, and sometimes losing battles because the Loyalists were more unified.

[Nazguire]

 

The breakdown of the Legions into their eventual warband structure was interesting to see as well. It happens all the time in real life, but it's amusing to see traitors expect loyalty when they've already broken the most solemn oaths. Typhon couldn't wait to get away from Mortarion, whom he's probably hated since he ended the Librarius. Eidolon probably wants nothing to do with Fulgrim, and couldn't find hm even if he did.

The latest Forge World book also goes into this; how the traitors were riven with factionalism and in-fighting, and sometimes losing battles because the Loyalists were more unified.

 

 

 

I don't think that Typhon hates Mortarion - he definitely seemed to revere him in "Flight of the Eisenstein". Moreover, he's gotten a taste of power now, and is plotting how to corrupt the rest of the Legion. I think that Typhon will come back once he has his plan to corrupt the Death Guard in place. Eidolon has moved beyond his preening worship of him in Angel Exterminatus, he's his own commander now.

[Marshal Loss]

Yeah the Lion notes (in the short story 'The Lion,' Primarchs anthology) that Typhon clearly isn't doing things on behalf of Mortarion or even the Warmaster, but in Typhon's monologue(s) other than mentioning how Mortarion hated psykers & had disbanded the Librarius there's nothing to indicate that Typhon actually hates Morty though, only that Nurgle desires the love & worship of Mortarion above all others.

 

*continues fervently hoping for a Wraight DG novel*

 

EDIT; one thing that I always found strange was that Typhon was promoted to First Captain despite formerly having been part of the Librarius. Surely Mortarion would have known, and hated him for it (see: Morturg)?

[Rob P]

I've finally got to the end of this one and whilst it is good it's got a number of flaws or perceived flaws.

 

Things I found satisfying:

 

 

 

- Change in Eidolon's character

- Villain's that weren't complete idiots (though the Iron Warriors were the whipping boys!)

- Mortarion's xenos brain thing

- The attempt to explain Mortarion's supposed change between Scars and Vengeful Spirit

- The attempt to explain why the Emperor was so secretive

- The use of webway/golden throne as a plot device - possibly also give hints at where The Khagan goes after the heresy

- The change in the White Scars (if a little too blunt)

- That not all the Emperor's Children have necessarily embraced chaos

- Bringing Torghun and co back

- Ilya playing the same role as in Scars

- Arvida's battle of will

- The epilogue

- Bit where Mortarion basically eye-rolls at Eidolon wanting to fight a primarch and not realising that Eidolon is happy to get killed by one (rather than thinking he could win)

 

 

 

 

What I found less satisfying:

 

 

 

 

- The overall plot was a little too basic - the ending was anti-climactic and certainly a bridging novel rather than a complete story in it's own right

- First quarter drags

- Unsatisfactory resolution between Shiban and Torghun

- Lack of second fight between Mortarion and the Khagan

- Torghun's limp death

- Chaos daemons doing daemony stuff to have a fight at the conclusion to the story

- Von Kalda'a daemon not going for Cario - this just did not make sense at all

- Lack or bridge to next phase of Mortarion's story (e.g. could have done with Typhon showing up at the end) 

- Lacked 'the feels' - Didn't care where anyone died - didn't feel the highs or the lows - I think it's because I didn't really feel that any of the characters had enough screen time to develop

 

Basically not a brilliant story but saved by having a huge amount of Easter Eggs and fun scenes.

 

 

 

[b1soul]

I felt Konenos was an unnecessary character

[1ncarnadine]

I felt Konenos was an unnecessary character

 

He's an interesting callback to FW's Betrayal book. Under the Emperor's Children section, there's a picture of a Centurion and it's actually Konenos. Noted as Eidolon's 2nd in command for Isstvan III. So, kinda neat that Wraight dug him up.

[b1soul]

His only contribution was to serve as

 

 

the Keeper of Secret's fleshbag host