Armoured Sheild Start Collecting formation question

[kalenein]

I just picked up the start collecting set for IG and I have been looking at the formation requirements and wondering how they actually work. So supposidly you are supposed to be able to take this set and just play it alone with nothing else. So part of my question is if you play this alone with nothing else are you then an unbound army? Is an Officio Prefectus Commisar considered a Lord Commisar or just a Commisar?

 

here is are the unit requirements for the formation:

1 Officio Prefectus Commisar
1 Infantry Squad
1 Leman Russ

So if you run...

Lord Commisar
Veterans squad with heavy wepon team
Leman Russ

 

you should be fulfilling the formation requirements for this force or can you do

 

Veterans Squad + commisar + heavy wepon team
Leman Russ

 

and still be fulfilling the formation?

[WarriorFish]

The formation is clear in that it's an Infantry Squad, not anything else so that's the only way to run it same with the Lord Commissar - he's a separate choice to a normal Commissar. So your example is unbound and not the formation.

 

Note that formations are part of an army and not unbound - the "standard" CAD FOC is a formation itself.

[kalenein]

The Formation is clear that you need to bring an Infantry Squad, but there is no unit called "Infantry Squad" that can be taken from what I see. There are "infantry platoons" that have infantry squads in them. So the rule is somewhat ambiguous. it seems more likely since they only give you 10 infantry models in the set that you can take any unit that is of type infantry to meet the requirement just like they don't tell you what kind of leman russ you have to take but just have a generalized leman russ option to meet the requirements, and they don't specifically say Lord Commisar.. though I will admit it seems odd of they don't intend lord commissar since that is an HQ choice.

[WarriorFish]

The Infantry Squad is a unit in the codex, even if you can't normally take it by itself only as part of a Platoon. Formations are their own beasts and may ignore the otherwise normal structures. As such there is no need of an HQ choice in a formation, so the fact it doesn't say Lord Commissar must be taken to be that it isn't meant to be one. The Leman Russ being a choice doesn't alter the wording of the rest of the formation which features no choice further than the upgrades for the unit.

[duz_]

If your opponent agrees on your interpretation then you can play it your way

 

Otherwise the consensus on the rules is how warriorfish has explained

 

The only unit that isn't specifically mentioned in the codex is the officio commissar

However the assumption would be a regular commissar and given the pts difference between that and a LC I'd go for the cheaper one anyway

[kalenein]

so GW's description of the box set

 

"This is a great-value box set that gives you an immediate collection of fantastic Astra Militarum miniatures, which you can assemble and use right away in games of Warhammer 40,000! You’ll receive a Leman Russ Battle Tank, a Cadian Heavy Weapon Team, an Officio Prefectus Commissar, a set of ten Cadian Shock Troops and an exclusive Astra Militarum Formation rules sheet - the Armoured Shield - allowing you to collect, assemble and play with your new miniatures right away!"

 

This implies that you can start playing with the formation and the models given in the set. Since you can not take an Infantry Squad as outlined in the code as a single unit its a sub-unit of an infantry platoon. that would mean that you can not take the models out of this set and play with in the given formation as is which is what seems to be implied. And in every other Start playing set you get exactly what you need to play that formation you don't need to buy anything else to make it valid. How would this set be any different? If they don't specify the exact unit for the commissar and they don't specify the exact unit for leman russ, and you cant take an actual Infantry squad as a unit this formation would be impossible to run. You have to be able to take some kind of "infantry unit" that can stand alone with 10 men and nothing else to support it.

[CaptainHelion]

An Infantry Squad is its own unit, as is a Platoon Command Squad and a Special Weapons Squad, etc. They are part of an Infantry Platoon. An Infantry Platoon consists of a Platoon Command Squad, and two Infantry Squads (plus additionals), and I quote: "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organisation chart". Not a unit together.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Kalenein, you're trying to make the rules say what you want them to. The only way to run the contents of that box as a lord commissar vet squad and Russ, is to run them in an allied detachment.

 

Infantry squads are normally only available as part of a platoon, however they are listed as an entry under the platoon. As WarriorFish stated earlier, formations can ignore standard force composition.

 

You can run the formation because it says what's in it. The only reason you see this as a problem is because Guard is the only 40k army that has this kind of force org ignoring structure. Stop overthinking it. It says commissar and infantry squad and a Leman Russ, are you going to argue that you can't just take a single Russ, since they have to come in squadrons? Sure you can take squadrons of 1, but it has to be a squadron, right? Nope, you didn't argue that, so if you can accept that you can accept the rest.

 

Not trying to be mean, but you're doing some major rules lawyering here and that's no Bueno.

[Seahawk]

I had a thought last night to make a decent list spamming these:

 

3 Armored shields: 2 demolishers, 1 eradicator all with camo. Squads with meltas or plasmas, commies with plasma. Tack on an Emperor's Spear Aerial company of 3 Vendettas, filled with a CAD of Stormtroopers stacked with melta and plasma. Would be a fun 2k list I think.

 

4+ cover on infantry, 4+ on tanks (usually), mobility, and cutting power.

[casb1965]

Where is the 4+ on tanks coming from?

 

Camo improves cover by 1 so 6+ in open, are you using cover to get the initial 5+?

[duz_]

Smoke is 5+, +1 for camo is 4 or

Intervening model is also 5 plus 1 for camo

[Otto von Bludd]

This contradicts conventional IG wisdom, but after reading through a thorough discussion of the matter on dakkadakka I'm convinced; you can take an Infantry Squad outside of a platoon if you want to.  There is nothing in the codex forbidding you from doing this.  The idea that there was is a holdover from previous editions.  If you agree with this, taking an infantry squad in this formation is even less controversial. 

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Otto, you're going to need to take us through the reasoning on that. 

[Jacinda]

There is nothing in the codex forbidding you from doing this.

Three is nothing in the rules that say I can't use a die with 6's on all sides, either. In a permissive system, what is not explicitly permitted is not allowed.

[Otto von Bludd]

I was in the same camp as you guys and I've played guard on and off since doctrines where a thing but this thread has convinced me (perhaps partially because I don't want to be stuck with platoons anymore, but I think the logic is sound as Charistoph is a very good rules lawyer).  This discussion probably deserves it's own thread. 

 

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/706194.page

[Jacinda]

Except that he tends to ignore the fact that a conscript squad is not a troop choice. It is an option for the troop choice, Platoon. Just because there is a separate stat block does not mean it is a new, independent troop choice.

 

But hey, we are not the people you need to convince. If you are playing with other people that say you can do it, you can do it.

[Otto von Bludd]

His very first post addresses your objection.  To keep the discussion relevant to this thread though, if there were no rules for taking Infantry Squads outside of a Platoon then the Armored Shield formation could not exist.  It does however.  Food for thought.  

[Shamansky]

His very first post addresses your objection.  To keep the discussion relevant to this thread though, if there were no rules for taking Infantry Squads outside of a Platoon then the Armored Shield formation could not exist.  It does however.  Food for thought.  

This is senceles. You could say that wind blows because trees wave branches with the same success. As our Lord Comissar stated earlier (and i'm not the fool to object what comissars say to be honest) formations do not obey normal FOC rules. As was already mentioned there's no any mean in our present Astra Militarum codex that would allow using infantry squad as a separate troops choise outside of a platoon. Infantry squads are stated to be parts of a platoon. And only formation's special rules make it possible to legally take a single infantry squad without any command squads. if the rules could be concidered as 'what is not forbiden is allowed' than there's no any ban for taking 'one other gurdsman' with for example a plasma gun nine times.