Are the IG Currently Lacking in 7th Edition?

[Rommel44]

Just wanted to ask you guys about the IG and a trend I have been noticing lately since I started playing them. Earlier this week, I went to a different store that I recently found out about and when I went there a lot of the 40k players were surprised that I was fielding Imperial Guard. To a lot of them, they feel that the Imperial Guard are a bad army right now as they need a major update to be competitive in this Edition. This of course lead to a debate and by the end of it, I couldn't do much to convince them despite winning 2 games. And this isn't the first time I have gone to play games and my opponents have made that same comment of me playing IG when they are an army lacking a lot atm.

This is my personal take on the IG. The Imperial Guard can still be a competitive Army in this Edition and compared to others, we still have some bite and we can still hold our own. However, we are currently falling behind compared to most of the top-tier armies at the moment and as it stands, we lack any real strong formations that are both flexible and effective atm, as most other armies have formations that completely outstrip ours. Need a lot of Point changes to actually reflect the cost of various units and tanks as many of them are over costed for what we get, bring back some special rules like Lumbering Behemoth, and could use an update on various formations and lists, especially the Forgeworld Death Korps of Krieg and Elysian lists. Another big change that we need is consistency and a unified set of rules for all IG armies, both FW and Standard. One if the biggest issues I have with the Imperial Guard is that there are numerous Army lists and Formations with different point values and rules and they all need to be updated to where they are all on the same page.

Not saying this to complain. But I can't deny that when it comes to Tournament play and even in fun games, those few like me who play Imperial Guard just can't seem to do well and things usually end bad for us. And the more and more I play, I an kinda understand what my opponents are referencing as while I love the IG and they are a fun army to play, I do feel that they are lacking in some way compared to other 40k armies. Not sure if it has something related to what I said above, if its about a rule issue or the lack of effective formations, but I am starting to see why many people believe the IG are falling behind. Have any other IG players experience this lately? Or if you play another army, do any of these thoughts reflect on what the problem with the IG is atm? Appreciate the feedback because while I do love my IG a lot, I might put them on hold and focus on building a more competitive list. Not because I am frustrated or upset but I play in a very Power-List type of meta for the most part and I would like to hold my own for once in games in a tournament. Kinda sucks when the only award I can get in a Tournament Constantly is the Good Sportsmanship Award lol.

[Teetengee]

the main problem with ig is that the lowly guardsman is probably about a half a point to expensive these days, and they didn't remedy that with a usuable meta-detachment. The artillery formation is mean though, as ignores cover basilisks will ruin people's day.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

IG does need some help. That's compounded by the fact that IG is not an easy army to play, and the points cost for most units needs adjustment down (the Wyvern is the notable exception). The IG needs to have a bit more variety, stylistically, and it needs some rules for adaptability very similar to C:SM chapter tactics. Don't know that we really need any new units, so much as our current units need to be updated and brought into the current meta.

 

IG, as an army is consistently underestimated, especially with their ability to multiply their firepower and ignore force org to a degree. Unfortunately GW seems to want us to spend more money on more stuff and field bigger armies and play bigger games as a result, something where Guard can really shine, if you have the appropriate models to make it work.

 

I hope this helps somewhat.

[Canadian_F_H]

Ig need a few points tweeks and regimental doctrine (similar to c:sm chapter tactics)

 

This was handled well in the past...

 

Sadly they would probably force it on us thru formations. ..

 

 

In the dark ages of 3rd, you could pay for special rules on a *unit* basis (platoons were lumped together for this purpose)

 

Deploying a massed infantry army as infiltrates with move thru cover and camouflage was kind of mean...

[Teetengee]

to be fair, they could sell more models by dropping points to an appropriate value than by forcing formation bonuses, so that might be what they decide to do

[Truesight]

I'm concerned.  Codexes are getting 'updated' by adding a couple of units and formations and calling it a day.  There are some core problems in the Guard codex with unit pricing, and that hasn't been addressed in other codex updates.  After the Cadian decurion I'm also worried about what is in store for us with formations, those formations were way off the mark.  

[Kontakt]

   What the guard needed was and still is new formations. What they received was formations that require more points than a standard game to really work well competitively. This compounds with the fact that a fluffy and arguably more competitive infantry list takes too long to run through a turn, meaning tournament games take too long and other players will be displeased. It's not that you can't win, it's just going to be difficult.

   Horde armies aren't popular in tournaments. I myself take smaller, more expensive armies to tournaments in order to decrease turn time. Time seems to be a major factor, and if that's not a factor for your games, numbers might be the answer.

[Stofficus]

I'm concerned.  Codexes are getting 'updated' by adding a couple of units and formations and calling it a day.  There are some core problems in the Guard codex with unit pricing, and that hasn't been addressed in other codex updates.  After the Cadian decurion I'm also worried about what is in store for us with formations, those formations were way off the mark.  

 

This is my chief concern. 

 

I haven't played the core IG dex since it's update in 6th very much, largely on account of its lacklustre nature, lack of flavour and completely unresolved internal balance issues. Sure, the Cadian decurion made Leman Russes a little bit nicer, and have artillery a bit of boost, but these were the two things the Guard already did reasonably well (though still inferior to skimmer armies, as that wider mechanical gulf remains unresolved - one point of AV does not make a Leman Russ comparable to the Hammerhead). Meanwhile, footguard are a chore to play and are very one dimensional (I have more men than you can kill, fear me!), and almost everything the Guard has someone else can do better. 

 

Want to use Stormtroopers & Veterans? Skitarii are objectively superior in all respects. Want to use powerful tanks? Tau and Eldar are objectively better, and even SM can now squadron their tanks and give them Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter! Like artillery? Tyranids of all people have distinct advantages on that front, with mobile MC artillery units, though the Traitor Guard do are probably the best artillery army in the game at present. Want to run hordes? Orks have larger, tougher shooty/melee hordes for a nominally higher cost. 

 

Pretty much every Guard can do, is done better elsewhere, with the army lacking in a few critical areas such as:

 

Mobility - zero alternate deployment options, army is completely reliant on marching/driving up the table with only massively overpriced Stormtroopers able to deep strike - and only reliably if they deep strike off a friendly vehicle with an upgrade more expensive than the SM equivalent by 150%. Scout, outflank, infiltrate and so on are deeply restricted, moreso than almost any other army. Those units which can or are faster than 6'' are otherwise some of the worst units in the codex; ratlings, rough riders, stormtroopers and so on. 

 

Survivability - Guard, at present, can quite often go an entire game and never have the opportunity to roll a save. Ignores cover is extremely common in the current meta (something Guard pioneered, by the way, with the Eradicator in 5th, along with torrent), and the amount of firepower available which will simply erase even fully upgraded Veterans, the only infantry unit in the 'dex with respectable stats, at a very high price mind you with carapace and stealth, is prolific. The venerable Leman Russ retains its AV14 front armour, but with no saving through and no mobility, it is by no means a resilient vehicle - units a fraction of its cost can destroy it with ease given access to a transport or improved mobility. 

 

Firepower - Guard can still out-template anyone in the game, this is absolutely true, and if built that way will fair better than most against other horde armies, their tools in comparison with their foes often falls flat. When the Hellturkey is 50 points more than a hellhound, and can fly, has AP3, a 5+ invuln, Ap2 vector strikes and IWND, and is by no means the top unit in the game anymore, it doesn't look so hot for the Guard, as one example among many.

 

Cost-Efficiency - Touched on earlier, but most Guard units have laughable cost effectiveness. Leman Russes (non-ordnance) and conscripts hold up favourably against many comparisons, and the Wyvern is actually quite undercosted,  but when units such as Deathstrikes, Stormtroopers, Ratlings, Rough Riders, Tauroxes/Taurox Primes, Chimeras, Veterans, Heavy Weapon Teams and so on exist, and on top of that Guard must pay SM prices for upgrades (and on no planet is 25 points fair for a Guard Sgt power fist), there really isn't much to say in their favour. If one wanted to run a Guard-style army, they would be far better off, in terms of cost/vs reward to run Skitarii infantry with SM tank formations - they perform many of the same roles, but cheaper, with more rules and generally better mobility/survivability. 

 

All of these points paint a clear picture that Guard need more than just a better decurion - their codex needs serious work (as do Tyranids, CSM, Orks and several others, almost all the 6th and pre-7.5 books do, truth be told), but I find it very doubtful that will happen given the existing precedent. 

[WarriorFish]

Granted, much is down to the "group think" of those who should know better but yes, Guard are behind the curve in 7th. The answer to that is: so what? Does anyone expect to be top tier all the time? Shouldn't do. Guard has never been top tier anyway.

Guard slog it to victory. We grind them down, make them pay for every step. All 7th has done is made that truer than before. Nobody ever collected Guard because they thought it was a powerful codex. Let them underestimate you, it helps give you an useful edge and more importantly provides a much greater yield of tears for your jar.

Anyone moron can pick up an Eldars or Tau army and win. The commissariat shoots morons on sight, just so you know

[Stofficus]

Granted, much is down to the "group think" of those who should know better but yes, Guard are behind the curve in 7th. The answer to that is: so what? Does anyone expect to be top tier all the time? Shouldn't do. Guard has never been top tier anyway.

Guard slog it to victory. We grind them down, make them pay for every step. All 7th has done is made that truer than before. Nobody ever collected Guard because they thought it was a powerful codex. Let them underestimate you, it helps give you an useful edge and more importantly provides a much greater yield of tears for your jar.

Anyone moron can pick up an Eldars or Tau army and win. The commissariat shoots morons on sight, just so you know

A nice notion, but when your local meta has gone hyper-competitive, it stops being fun after a while.

If I go to the single GW store in the western half of the country, then yes, Guard can do alright and have fun because the environment is very low key - last time I was there there were three Dark Eldar players of all things!

but when locally it's all Nurgle CSM + Traitor Guard + Daemons/Pure Daemons, the Broken Mek Stompa, Green Tide, Psyker Spam and Tau, one's will to keep fighting with a massive handicap is worn down, and then one sell's their entire Death Korps collection and finds a 30k club and starts Solar Auxilia :P (with which I have repeatedly tabled Guard at around Turn 3-4, including one of my former armies!)

I've still got a pile of Russes and about 60 Kasrkin with a few odds and ends, but I can't say I've had any motivation to do anything with them in the current state of the codex, and little reason to be optimistic.

[WarriorFish]

That's kind of my point though; if it is hyper competitive you should know that Guard have an older codex and will struggle. We're not alone there unfortunately. Games will be hard fought and the odds against you as we don't have the formations and the shinier codex to go with them.

 

40k is a social game first and foremost, if your opponents are happy stomping you then you need to consider your options as this obviously isn't the place to be. That's the core issue as it always will be, as the social contract requires the game to be enjoyable (not ignoring those few who can't tolerate losing). Could you instead organise games in advance with an opponent so they're not bringing their super list to fight the other super lists? Metas work in many ways but that doesn't mean you always have to play by them.

[Stofficus]

That's kind of my point though; if it is hyper competitive you should know that Guard have an older codex and will struggle. We're not alone there unfortunately. Games will be hard fought and the odds against you as we don't have the formations and the shinier codex to go with them.

 

40k is a social game first and foremost, if your opponents are happy stomping you then you need to consider your options as this obviously isn't the place to be. That's the core issue as it always will be, as the social contract requires the game to be enjoyable (not ignoring those few who can't tolerate losing). Could you instead organise games in advance with an opponent so they're not bringing their super list to fight the other super lists? Metas work in many ways but that doesn't mean you always have to play by them.

 

Not so much a possibility where I was, it's why I opted to stop playing and find other things to do. 

 

It's part of a wider narrative though, as the power gulf has widened over the last few years, for which I know Guard is not alone. To be perfectly frank, I have been having continuously less fun ever since 5th, which was, of course, far from perfect, but I do miss not having to engage in politicking prior to each game just to try and get a decent match in, whether it be with Guard, SM, Orks or anything else. 

 

Just being a a year or two old didn't guarantee your army's obsolesce traditionally (case and points, the 4th ed Ork book held up well into 6th), and the current reality has left me deeply embittered, not just personally, but for what it has done to the community as well. 

[WarriorFish]

Nothing to be gained in letting it get to you, as easy as that is to say. You'll need to be pro-active and try and find people who want to play in the same way you do, that's the golden spot. Easier said than done of course, but thanks to the Internet surely easier than ever before? The B&C has a section for arranging games and the like perhaps you could start there?

If you need to do a dance before you can get a decent game in that's not on you, nor even GW - that's entirely down to your opponent. Yes, GW doesn't help but that's like the thief claiming that leaving the window open made it the victim's fault. If your group only cares about winning then they have lost sight of the whole point of the exercise. Paris is a big place, there has to be other hobbyists like you there.

I know we can't directly help, short of hopping over to France for a game - but there's steps you can take to try at least. It will probably be a bit of work and there is no guarantee of success but better than doing nothing! It might not help but with GW's recent escapades we can have optimism that the future will be better. Yes, not perfect this is still GW we're talking about but we're seeing things we've never seen before or never thought we would again. Who knows what the future might hold? The game is far more than just the codex though, the B&C is proof of that

[Rommel44]

I agree the game is more then just the Codex lol, however it gets old being the one player who plays a list he enjoys because he loves the army, only to get crushed by the newer, updated armies. Big reason why I am tempted to either shelve or possible sell my IG until they get updated depending on my financial situation at the time.

[WarriorFish]

It does get old, yes. I have been there and gone through bad times too. However it's not the codex but the player that's the issue. They would do that same thing regardless, just as the poor sportsman is poor whatever army. That's not how it always has to be though, things can improve but much like life in general you can't wait for it to happen.

Either you find some decent gamers like yourself or you rehabilitate some. Could even be giving your Guard a little break from the table. As long as you're taking steps to resolve it somehow. Maybe one day you may find this topic again and wonder how you ever tolerated it at all? That is the situation I find myself in, I'm enjoying my 40k like never before.

The worst games are always against the poor players; the best games with the best people. I'd go as far as to say you could have an entirely identical game against these two "types" but come away with a completely different opinion of it purely down to who was standing on the other side of the table. Good players are worth finding and don't forget there are other hobbyists out there looking for you too, as to them you'll be that great person to play with

[Rommel44]

Most of the time they aren't bad players in that sense. The reality is that why all of them play competitive lists, a lot of them have not even then I have struggled. Doesn't matter what tactics or what list I use, it's just that their armies are just better at the moment. Don't mind losing bit I just want to be somewhat competitive to where I have a chance to win.

[duz_]

I agree with WF

 

The guard codex is not a powerhouse everything obsec + free transport, free upgrades or cheap high powered ignores rules codex but then again only a few codex are

 

But outside of a super competitive environment the guard codex holds it own and does well

Especially in a CAD / allied detachment

 

Yes I know that this edition is about formation but like WF said this game in a casual is about having fun and agreeing this your opponent how you would like to structure your games

 

I feel sorry for those who are in areas where you cannot find friendly casual games

I'm about to move to the states soon and I'm concerned I may come across this too as I currently have a very friendly gaming meta

However I'm sure you can find others in the same boat as you

 

Finally I personally don't understand how someone is willing to sell their entire army they have invested greatly in (both time and money) because they are no longer top tier. Only to buy them all again when they're back in vogue.

 

Yes I wish I could play a pure guard army in a tournament and make top 10 comfortably but its not our time at the moment and things may change in the near distant future

 

Heads up soliders all is not lost

[Rommel44]

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't sell my Army just because it isn't top tier. I always just keep the option back in my mind because I live alone and I have school starting so I have to pay for tuition. Nothing wrong with having that option and play but I do plan to continue to play my Imperial Guard for a while. Just need to figure out what to do with my Army list.

[WarriorFish]

This could be a good opportunity to re-assess how you play. Make some notes on the lists you run and how you play, perhaps you can find some quirks or preferences that hold you back? When in doubt chew through the rulebook as that's where all victories come from - a knowledge of the rules :P

[CoffeeGrunt]

Personally, I have a few issues with the core mechanics, but they are what they are. Leaving them aside for this discussion, I understand that player sportsmanship is an aspect, but it's a real tough one to judge. Before 40K gave up the ghost locally, the Tau Codex had just dropped. Excellent. I got some shiny new Breachers, Crisis Suits, and a Ghostkeel. The Breachers were an up-close, high-risk, high-reward unit that were fun but possible for an opponent to counter. The Ghostkeel was handy, and fairly tough, but an S10 shot would annihilate it. As a bonus, it had a Formation that made my beloved Stealth Suits good...really good!

 

Sadly the rest of the Codex hadn't been updated at all, which rankled a bit. Vespid were still worthless, the Sharks as well. Now Crisis Bodyguards are literally redundant as well, and units I'd hoped would get love were just ignored, aside from maybe featuring in a Formation.

 

I started playing with it, and it just wasn't fun. I played against a friend I play several games with regularly, and we're on an even keel across most of them. I consistently shattered his Cadian force of tanks, because they were terrible. I was meleeing them to death, as Tau. My main problem is that the disparity between factions really makes it tough to gauge what to bring. We don't tell each other what army to bring, but he knew I was on a Tau streak lately due to the new Codex, and so knew what I would bring and mounted up to counter it. It was still a slaughter, and this was with me throwing units into the open, charging with my units and generally not trying to WAAC things.

 

I dunno, against the same guy I've had some darn close games of Dropzone, Halo, and other games. We've had several moments of tactical brilliance in the last moments of the game winning it for either of us, and overall it was really enjoyable. I think Alternate Activations really do help, and the smaller scale means I don't spend 20 minutes moving a Platoon every turn, or the entire first turn mopping up dead units that will never get to engage. I don't think my Banewolf has ever managed to actually reach a target.

 

Sorry to be one of those evangelist types. I have 10K of Guard and I recently set a load of them up in a display cabinet in the local store, and while I love painting and collecting them, I just don't enjoy playing them, personally. Maybe the new Codex will help with that, but if it's just another Tau-esque, "throw some new units in, add Formations, ignore the rest," deal, then I probably won't be getting back into 40K at all. :/

[Arkaniss]

Why, this is a sorry collection of posts! I hope peeps get their 40K groove back soon - and maybe a new codex too as it seems like that would help. It's no fun being left behind and struggling with games as your codex is so old. Been there a few times over the years.

I find having multiple armies is my solution. If I'm no longer enjoying the uphill struggle of an out of date codex then I can switch armies and enjoy a different faction. It certainly helps that I run in a casual gaming group too.

Also I'll add that selling an army because of this (not for other reasons e.g. financial) is likely to be a mistake you'll regret in future in my opinion. IG will get a new codex and hopefully it'll be a good one, then that's the perfect time to get your army back out of storage and dust it off. If the new IG codex is awesome and just what you want and you no longer have your army...well, I guess you can build it again but better this time!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have nearly lost games and lost others with my guard to new players using newer books. I love my guard, and I love the challenge they present me with while playing. They aren't top tier which makes a win with them all the more impressive.

 

I won't keep hammering on the points others have already hit, but I will say that as guard stands, the core book severely limits them in terms of play style, and a new book needs to give us more access to scout, infiltrate, and deep strike, and assault vehicles. Infantry platoons need a way to get them up the board faster or at least give them some survivability. Harder hitting squads would be nice too.

[Toxichobbit]

I'm concerned.  Codexes are getting 'updated' by adding a couple of units and formations and calling it a day.  There are some core problems in the Guard codex with unit pricing, and that hasn't been addressed in other codex updates.  After the Cadian decurion I'm also worried about what is in store for us with formations, those formations were way off the mark.  

 

I'm really worried about this too. I have been since the Tau Codex came out with very few changes. While Tau could weather that storm, their auxilliary units couldn't and Kroot/Vespid still rarely see play. They were bad and after the update are still bad. Luckily for Tau, the bad units were outnumbered by the good. For Guard that isn't the case, there's more bad (or mediocre if you like) than good so if they get an update like Tau then they'll be struggling indefinitely. The same applies to one of my other armies, Tyranids and although I don't play Chaos Marines, I'd guess they feel the same. All three of those armies need something more akin to the Eldar and Space Marine Codices from last year.

[march10k]

Hehe...I've been listening to "guard need a slight points tweak downward," and watching those tweaks happen, for 15 years.  5 points per model for a basic rifleman is a steal.  Trust me, going from 50 points per squad to 45 won't satisfy anyone.  What people really seem to be unhappy with is a statline full of 3s and an armor save that is penned by the "lowly" boltgun.  It really has nothing to do with points, IMHO.  It's a dissatisfaction with how weak and ineffective a mere mortal is in the grimdark future, expressed through points cost because asking for better stats would fall on deaf ears.  Hell, I have ~250 guardsmen, and I field 40 veterans day in and day out.  Bog stock guard infantry is pitiful in 40k, but it has nothing to do with points cost.  

 

Same goes for all of the other IG units that "are just a tad overcosted."  I was fielding multiple chimeras at 125 points appiece.  Then they went to, what, 55, in the last codex?  That was a bit undercosted (though not as badly undercosted as 125 was overcosted), but they also lost the ability to have units score from inside.  This edition, as long as they're the dedicated transports of a superscorer, they superscore empty, AND you have to be AP2 or better to one-shot them?  Yet the complaint is that they went up ten points.  Mind-blowing.  

 

All that said, there are a few units that are wrong-costed.  Hellhounds, for example.  Taken in isolation, I can't really say they aren't worth their points cost, what with the ranged flame template, AV12 sides, and being fast.  The problem is when you compare them to the points cost of the eradicator and the wyvern.  The wyvern is embarrasingly cheesy, made worse by being brokenly cheap.  The eradicator, on the other hand, is probably properly priced, relative to the other russes, but not relative to the hellhound.  It has AV14 and longer range with a much larger cover-ignoring template...huh...hellhound has...fast.  Not even close to being funny, that mismatch.  So there are some points cost issues, but the decades old drumbeat of "everything is too expensive" has me rolling my eyes.

 

What IG probably needs is better elites more than anything.  The current incarnation of ratlings is the best in ages, and ogryns got a nice overhaul, but I still can't bring myself to "waste" points on elites.  We have amazing heavies and decent troops.  Fast attack is okay, hellhounds are overcosted, but sentinels are decent for the price.  But elites?  They stink on ice.  We need something there.  Maybe scatter-free deepstriking special weapons squads, popping up out of sewers and spider holes?  I dunno.  Something.  We also need our regimental doctrines back, and NOT in the form of formations.  An urban warfare specialist could, for example get stealth: ruins and move through cover, either at a low per unit cost but required for the whole army, or a higher cost elective per unit.  Maybe one that gets preferred enemy:xenos.  One that gets tank hunters (infantry units only!), whatever.  A doctrine for pistol and sword in lieu of rifle would be awesome.