Baal Predator; tactics and which version works best?

[Helias_Tancred]

Hey all. Building a Baal Predator. First question is which version to do, the twin-linked assault cannon version, or the flamestorm cannon version?

 

What tactics have you used successfully with our signature tank in the past? Which version has worked best for you?

 

My gaming group meta is more fluff and fun, and we are competitive within our codices.

 

 

I'm thinking that I would use this for 3 roles. First as a simple fast moving line breaker unit that has some punch. Second, as a mid-field lurker that can dish out some damage while hanging out there. Third, as a unit offering support to a tactical squad in a Rhino, or a Sternguard squad in a razorback?

 

 

 

 

[The Unseen]

Firstly, I highly recommend magnetizing the main gun, it's super easy to do.

 

I personable don't think the flamestorm is worth it without torrent since it lost scout.

 

It's downside is terrible side armor for a tank that has to get close to be effective, so running it with rhinos or razors next to it is a pretty good tactic, alone Ive found it far to easy to flank and shoot that av11.

 

So, with all that in mind, I like to run the ac with heavy flamer sponsons, but if your area is really meq or horde heavy rather than light vehicle spam, flamestorm and nothing else can be ok, if just as a fire magnet, as anything with a flamestorm is gonna get shot

[Silverson]

I tried the flame storm cannon a few times but found it woefully under performed, added to the it's downfall in my eyes was our tactical squads getting heavy flamers as they deal really well against hordes,

 

I now exclusively run mine with assault cannon heavy bolters and use it to hunt transports and fast moving infantry, throwing volume of dice at units like thunder wolf cavalry seems to work well. I have read that the standard auto cannon heavy bolter predator is more efficient than the Baal pred but I like our unique toys and try to use them as much as possible,

 

As for support tactics it can be used to get things like line breaker but I tend to use my rhinos in that role more, it can also be a stronger screening unit for models to hide behind as its front av13 is not easy to get passed(in a fluffy meta like mine).

 

I recently bought a second and third Baal predator (last week) and tried using 2 on Friday and was very please with the results. I know this was against an optimum oponant but I played against orks and between the two they killed 3 killakanz, hosed units of boys, drew fire from enemy shooting, and had the speed to get around ghazkulls unit with his 2++ to pop some of the softer models in the formation,and screened my death company so the could get into combat with critical mass.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

TL assault cannons/HB sponsons. 7 shots at cruising speed, 4 of them twin linked. If you get all 10 you're probably going to make something fail its armor or cover save, assuming you're shooting at the right sort of target. Ideal targets are anything T5 and under, or AV12 and under. I've found that either the other guy puts a disproportionate amount of firepower into taking him out, or ignores it completely, either is in your favor. Definitely second the above point of running it with razorbacks, make a nice fast AV wall to hide your jumpers behind with a ton of covering fire. It's not the best heavy support option we have (a bare bones Sicaran does everything the Baal can do but better, for the same cost as an HB sponson Baal) but it is very versatile. I've wrecked Chimera chassis vehicles in a single round of shooting on multiple occasions, and shot jetbike squads off the board with sheer volume of fire. Since  your assault cannon is twin-linked and rending you've got a reasonable chance of stunlocking any AV12 and under your opponent brings to the party.

 

If your meta is as fluffy as you say, I think you should see pretty good results.

[evildrcheese]

Yeah, I'm all about the Dakka Baal. TL Assault Cannon and HB sponsons.

 

Great for crowd control.

 

The Flamestorm has potential as it's both ap3 and ignores cover ,making it ideal for those pesky Elder jetbikes, but lacking torrent and the issues around how close you to be when it's side armour is so poor makes it practically unusable.

 

EDC

[CaptainHelion]

The key with the Baal as I understand it is to maximise it's special abilities. As has been said, the Autocannon predator can out-perform the Baal in some circumstances, so you want to avoid using your Baal in those situations.

What does the Baal have that an AutoPred doesn't? Rending and Fast. There's not really much to do to utilise rending that differs from an autocannon, but Fast is quite a change. You can move cruising speed and still retain 2/3s of your firepower. You can flat out an extra 6" for an emergency redeploy.

So that means the Baal should be used to maximise this. You should be trying to keep mobile, moving in to support your slower or more vulnerable forces where possible. Also, if needed, it's not a bad objective grabber and ramming things with an AV13 tank is always fun.

[Quixus]

You might want to look at the options for the regular Predator. It can also get Lucifer Engines making it just as fast as the Baal Predator. And it still is cheaper. Unfortunately there is little reason to take our Baal Predators out of the garage with the current codex.

[evildrcheese]

You might want to look at the options for the regular Predator. It can also get Lucifer Engines making it just as fast as the Baal Predator. And it still is cheaper. Unfortunately there is little reason to take our Baal Predators out of the garage with the current codex.

Other than the fact it looks awesome ;)

 

EDC

[Charlo]

Flamestorm has the wonderful effect of making your enemy turn it in target priority number 1. No one wants a S6 AP3 ignore cover template dropped on them. And with our lucifer engines we can usually get close enough to lay it down.

 

If we could get Lascannon sponsons I'd certainly have them on an assault cannon Baal.

[Helias_Tancred]

You might want to look at the options for the regular Predator. It can also get Lucifer Engines making it just as fast as the Baal Predator. And it still is cheaper. Unfortunately there is little reason to take our Baal Predators out of the garage with the current codex.

 

I disagree. The guys I game with are pretty fluff and fun orientated. We are competitive within our own codices, but not much into power gaming. In the end we play for fun and fluff. I get into the army I play and I enjoy fielding their special or chapter unique units. 

 

I might field a normal predator with upgraded Lucifer engines in the future, but I couldn't play Blood Angels without having at least one Baal predator in my army. 

I went with the TL AC Baal, with 2 HB sponsons. My main role for it is to hang around the mid field and shoot things up. We will see how it does?

[Charlo]

Can't wait until we have squads with 3 flamestorm <3

[Boudan]

I have a Baal, a regular Predator and a Sicaran. My experience is that I get more shots out of the Baal, because the rending autocannon strikes less fear than a Sicaran. My Sicaran is often first to go *pop* because it is a little exotic for my local scene.

 

I run my Baal with HB sponsons. People often forget we have the Fast rule with Overcharged Engines, so that assault cannon and HBs are tearing into MEQ or speeders, etc. full blast on turn 1.

[NTaW]

If I have the points and need some dakka to accompany my Rhino embarked Tactical squads I'll roll with a TLAC/HB Baal. If my army looks like it could use a little help cracking transports open I'll roll with an LC/LC Predator. If a new Codex/Formation/squad rule gives Baals with flamestorm cannons Torrent I'll be on it, but I'm good leaving the templates to my infantry and Furiosos until then.

 

That TLAC/LC option Charlo suggested seems like blasphemy....but so right at the same time. Gimme!!

[The Unseen]

Ehh, forget lascannons on the side, I want the HH version, with assault cannon sponsons.

[dakkamasta]

Something that no one has mentioned about Baal predators (with assault cannon/heavy bolters) is that they are also semi-useful at anti-air. A twin-linked assault cannon and two heavy bolters with a 12" move can easily get to the weaker sides of flyers and you're pretty likely to get some shots through. I've lost count of how many times I've brought down flyers with a pair of baal predators spewing dakka into the air.

[Omega-soul]

Just to show how much 7-ed Baal-pred is a waste - you should look at the Heresy version  with FOUR (4!) assault cannon one of which is twin-linked.

So that IS a wrath of angels.

 

But now even a dakka-baal-predator is  worse than a typical destructor-predator w. HB and lucifer engines. And the main reason -24 inch range.

It's unacceptable range for a tank with 11AV side-armour whereas default predator have an autocannon with normal 36 inch range as their HB sponsons.

I don't know what kindof meta do you play, but every opponent have a solid 12 inch moving unit or long range shooting.

So the Fast doesn't count anymore. Going for 24inch mean that you have to eliminate your target but 2  HB  and 1 TL assault cannon do not posses that kind of power.

 

Essentialy there is just 1 viable option -  baal-flamer with heavy bolter sponsons  against bike-armies.  And this used not as  main killer but a nice solid bait  that should be kept in reserve or  be safe (like on landing pad). Opponent will be distracted and you should just cut throats with Dante and other  good fellows.

[Riot Earp]

Dakkamasta.

It is possible to thread flyers (got even a hellturkey with one down) but as omega-soul says. It has a bad output for his price and cutting scout from him was his death sentence for me.

I fight much against 12" beast biker etc. and everything of it get my tanks in round 2 or three and makes a bunch of scrap of it.

Predators much need av 11 on the back.

 

In one of my last turneys i had to take a predator and a baal predator and i´ve kept them cheap without sponons.

They did okayish for their points but nothing to brag about it.

[Quixus]

Just to show how much 7-ed Baal-pred is a waste - you should look at the Heresy version with FOUR (4!) assault cannon one of which is twin-linked.

So that IS a wrath of angels.

You are right, I totally forgot you could replace the HF sponsons with Iliastus Assault Cannons. Don't forget that the regular predator cannon was better back then too: Heavy 4 S7 AP 4. No Lucifer Engines yet though, AFAIK.

[appiah4]

The Dakka Pred and Baal Pred are pretty much the same thing, though with one you trade range for Rending. 

 

However, the Dakka Pred has two caveats: First, good luck meaningfully threatening AV13+ with that S7 autocannon turret.  Second, considering how much better the Annihilator turret is for its points, on a Fast chassis to boot, why would you?  In my mind, if you want a Fast long range support Predator, go with the Annihilator pattern.  I feel you don't even need sponsons with WS4 TL; Fast S9 AP2 will really ruin any armored vehicle's day.

 

If you want something that will roll in and support your forward elements like Drop Pod units, Jump Pack infantry, Deep Strikers, etc. in ruining the enemy's day, however, the Baal Predator really shines.  This is what I use mine for.  I use a lot of Drop Pod Tacticals, a Drop Pod Death Company, a Drop Pod Honor Guard and Drop Pod Dreadnoughts.  As you can see, a Fast Baal Predator with its specialized weapons can really work well in tandem with these.  As such, I enjoy using it with both the TLAC and the FS cannon.  Heavy Flamer sponsons complement both weapons pretty well in this role.

 

As such, I feel the Dakka Pred, on a fast chassis that is, is really stuck between two roles and does neither well..  For my money I'd rather have that sweet fast S9 AP2 TL Annihilator, or the Flamestorm template..

[Charlo]

You can get fast with a RoW, but it requires some fiddling because of our no more thanks than dudes drawback.

 

If we got the Predator cannon in 40k I'd be super happy, but I'm also glad it's not the same. I think it could do with having sunder though, seeing as it's a massive auto cannon.

[Quixus]

You can get fast with a RoW, but it requires some fiddling because of our no more thanks than dudes drawback.

Which RoW is that? Neither Day of Revelation nor Day of Sorrow grants Fast.

Is the number of tanks really an issue? The usually mandatory choices (1 HQ, 2 troops) already permits you to take 3 tanks (and possibly 2 dedicated transports).

[Charlo]

You can get fast with a RoW, but it requires some fiddling because of our no more thanks than dudes drawback.

Which RoW is that? Neither Day of Revelation nor Day of Sorrow grants Fast.

Is the number of tanks really an issue? The usually mandatory choices (1 HQ, 2 troops) already permits you to take 3 tanks (and possibly 2 dedicated transports).

One of the new Generic ones, Armoured breakthrough:

Predator squadrons with Autocannon turrets become your Compulsory Troops, Sicarans become Elites, one of either can be taken as a HQ (gaining Command Tank and +1 BS), and Tanks with 3 or less HP gain Fast. However, all infantry that can do so must purchase a dedicated transport with the "Tank" type. If you can't buy a DT (like lone HQ choices, you'll still need a non-tank HQ to get the MotL rule) then you must still purchase or join someone else's tank to deploy in, no immobile units and no more flyers and skimmers than tanks.

So yeah, Troop choices are fast preds with 4 shot Auto cannon, assault cannon sponsons and a pintle mounted assault cannon

The main issue is that your troops need a DT so they have to cover themselves, but two HQ choices cover the initial pred choices etc

[Xenith]

As suggested briefly above, I see some value in a flamestorm/hvb Baal, so it has some firepower when moving upfield, and can then move 12" and roast something as and when needed.

[Quixus]

Ah I see now how that can become fiddly for BA. I wonder why the compulsory predators may not take pintle mounted weapons.

[Jolemai]

Folks, can we steer this back to 40k use and keep the 30k stuff to the 30k threads please.

 

Cheers.