Baal Predator; tactics and which version works best?

[Tyriks]

Might want to edit your language there.

 

Any method of armor saves will have its problems, though. I might be misreading your suggestion but I think AP should modify the armor save, not the armor changing weapon strength. So, switch the numbers (ap1 is weak, ap6 is best) and subtract the AP from your armor save.

 

I.e. your s4 ap2 bolter fires at my tactical unit, gets 6 wounds, I would need a 5+ armor save per wound. If armor reduced weapon strength, bolters shooting at tactical squads will still never wound because the armor makes the bolters strength 1.

[LutherMax]

 

I like the weight of fire the TLAC/HB sponson variant offers (the Dakka Baal). The weapon strength isn't brilliant but it is supposed to be an anti-infantry tank and the number of shots it puts out is great - I've cut through Terminator squads with mine just by forcing too many saves...

The weight of fire the Baal puts out, is it's saving grace. However the problem is it's very inconsistent; for every story of it decimating a termie squad there's one where it's failure to do any casualties to a Tac Squad.

EDC

Well yeah, but it's a dice game. So it's as inconsistent as Lady Luck is. Point is - more dice equals more chances!

[appiah4]

Might want to edit your language there.

 

Any method of armor saves will have its problems, though. I might be misreading your suggestion but I think AP should modify the armor save, not the armor changing weapon strength. So, switch the numbers (ap1 is weak, ap6 is best) and subtract the AP from your armor save.

 

I.e. your s4 ap2 bolter fires at my tactical unit, gets 6 wounds, I would need a 5+ armor save per wound. If armor reduced weapon strength, bolters shooting at tactical squads will still never wound because the armor makes the bolters strength 1.

I fail to see anything that needs editing. And actually as proposed the boltgun at 1 strength would wound 1 in 6 which is far better that what it does now, 1 in 8.

[BAjim]

 

There are more benefits to taking a Baal Predator

Unlike most vehicles a Baal with flamers can fire Overwatch at a charging opponent. So says RAW.

While the BRB says that "Unless specified otherwise, vehicles cannot make Overwatch fire as it takes too long to bring their guns to bear". Good news is that the BA Codex confirms that Flamers on our Baals is a "Template weapon with Wall of Death special rule that can fire Overwatch".

So, I'm gonna try a TLAC/HF fit out and see how successful it is

 

 

There are more benefits to taking a Baal Predator

Unlike most vehicles a Baal with flamers can fire Overwatch at a charging opponent. So says RAW.

While the BRB says that "Unless specified otherwise, vehicles cannot make Overwatch fire as it takes too long to bring their guns to bear". Good news is that the BA Codex confirms that Flamers on our Baals is a "Template weapon with Wall of Death special rule that can fire Overwatch".

So, I'm gonna try a TLAC/HF fit out and see how successful it is

 

 

Where in the BA codex does it say this? All I can find is the weapon profile in the back as well as the entry in ranged weapons telling me I can find the profile in the BRB.

Hi Paikis, page 154 of the Codex BA Enhanced Edition on iBooks. Has the vehicle weapons, which you click on to open an explanation of their abilities.

[Tyriks]

 

I fail to see anything that needs editing. And actually as proposed the boltgun at 1 strength would wound 1 in 6 which is far better that what it does now, 1 in 8.

 

There's no swearing on the forum.  And a 1 in 6 is still pretty terrible.  With two squads of ten shooting at each other you would still go the full game without killing each other.  If you aren't in rapid fire range you still will cause less than one kill a turn on average (after you take into account rolling to hit), and cover would make it even worse (but cover has its own problems right now).  

 

If we just made AP reduce armor saves, good AP weaponry would either have to be less common or more expensive, so it would definitely require some tweaking and not be a quick fix the way your suggestion is, but I think the end result would make a little more sense.   

[Charlo]

I like it as it is right now. We just need some more additional rules to solve the prevalence of ap2. E.g. More FNP etx

[Helias_Tancred]

Yeah I agree with you Charlo. Roll back the overabundance of AP2.

[Quixus]

I like it as it is right now. We just need some more additional rules to solve the prevalence of ap2. E.g. More FNP etx

We also need cover to be an additional save. It makes no sense that a marine behind a crumbled wall is not better off against bolter fire than a marine in the open. And while we're at it, conceptually I'd prefer save rolls to be done before to-wound rolls.

[appiah4]

 

 

I fail to see anything that needs editing. And actually as proposed the boltgun at 1 strength would wound 1 in 6 which is far better that what it does now, 1 in 8.

 

There's no swearing on the forum.  And a 1 in 6 is still pretty terrible.  With two squads of ten shooting at each other you would still go the full game without killing each other.  If you aren't in rapid fire range you still will cause less than one kill a turn on average (after you take into account rolling to hit), and cover would make it even worse (but cover has its own problems right now).  

 

If we just made AP reduce armor saves, good AP weaponry would either have to be less common or more expensive, so it would definitely require some tweaking and not be a quick fix the way your suggestion is, but I think the end result would make a little more sense.   

 

 

I did not swear.

 

As for your math, it's broken.  1 in 6 is 4,2% higher a chance to wound than 1 in 8, that is not a minor increase when you are talking about a weapon that is used in volume. A 10 man Tactical squad 24" shooting 10 bolters for 6 turns, that is 60 shots, will only kill 7,5 MEQ on average.  By my method they kill precisely 10 on average.  

 

And if they are doubletapping, yours can still not finish off each other in a prolonged firefight (They are left with 5 vs 1 on average) but mine finish the firefight on Round 4 (6 to 0):

 

CURRENT:

 

Round 1

Units Shots Prob Kills

Squad A 10,00 20,00 0,13 2,50

Squad B 7,50 15,00 0,13 1,88

 

Round 2

Shots Prob Kills

Squad A 8,13 16,25 0,13 2,03

Squad B 5,47 10,94 0,13 1,37

 

Round 3

Shots Prob Kills

Squad A 6,76 13,52 0,13 1,69

Squad B 3,78 7,56 0,13 0,94

 

Round 4

Shots Prob Kills

Squad A 5,81 11,63 0,13 1,45

Squad B 2,33 4,65 0,13 0,58

 

Round 5

Shots Prob Kills

Squad A 5,23 10,46 0,13 1,31

Squad B 1,02 2,04 0,13 0,25

 

PROPOSED:

 

Round 1

Units Shots Prob Kills

Squad A 10,00 20,00 0,17 3,33

Squad B 6,67 13,33 0,17 2,22

 

Round 2

Shots Prob Kills

Squad A 7,78 15,56 0,17 2,59

Squad B 4,07 8,15 0,17 1,36

 

Round 3

Shots Prob Kills

Squad A 6,42 12,84 0,17 2,14

Squad B 1,93 3,87 0,17 0,64

 

Round 4

Shots Prob Kills

Squad A 5,78 11,55 0,17 1,93

Squad B 0,01 0,02 0,17 0,00

[Jolemai]

Knock the aggression off please folks.

[evildrcheese]

 

 

There are more benefits to taking a Baal Predator

Unlike most vehicles a Baal with flamers can fire Overwatch at a charging opponent. So says RAW.

While the BRB says that "Unless specified otherwise, vehicles cannot make Overwatch fire as it takes too long to bring their guns to bear". Good news is that the BA Codex confirms that Flamers on our Baals is a "Template weapon with Wall of Death special rule that can fire Overwatch".

So, I'm gonna try a TLAC/HF fit out and see how successful it is

 

There are more benefits to taking a Baal Predator

Unlike most vehicles a Baal with flamers can fire Overwatch at a charging opponent. So says RAW.

While the BRB says that "Unless specified otherwise, vehicles cannot make Overwatch fire as it takes too long to bring their guns to bear". Good news is that the BA Codex confirms that Flamers on our Baals is a "Template weapon with Wall of Death special rule that can fire Overwatch".

So, I'm gonna try a TLAC/HF fit out and see how successful it is

 

Where in the BA codex does it say this? All I can find is the weapon profile in the back as well as the entry in ranged weapons telling me I can find the profile in the BRB.

Hi Paikis, page 154 of the Codex BA Enhanced Edition on iBooks. Has the vehicle weapons, which you click on to open an explanation of their abilities.

Would you mind screen shotting that? Sounds like an error, as unless there's a rule saying 'a Baal Predator armed with Heavy Flamer sponsons may perform overwatch using the Wall of Fire rule' the no overwatch for vehicles would still take precedence, I would've thought.

 

EDC

[Jolemai]

Vehicles cannot fire Overwatch* unless they are a Dreadnought. Yes the enhanced edition will tell you the rules of the weapon(s) used and yes, it will say Wall of Death with Template weapons. However, the rules for vehicles prohibit this.

 

 

 

* note that passengers may do so via a Fire Point

[LutherMax]

Who in their right mind would want two tactical squads shooting at each other for a whole game?

 

Get a grip guys!

[appiah4]

Who in their right mind would want two tactical squads shooting at each other for a whole game?

 

Get a grip guys!

 

And that adresses the issue of Boltgun being totally useless.. how?  Can you opt to not field your Tactical Squads?  Do you never face MEQ?  Do you just go "Oh, it's PA.  Let's not even bother with the Shooting.."?  I mean, seriously, this is a constructive addition to the discussion in what manner, other than admitting that the gun is useless junk?

[Charlo]

Luther was only having a jibe Appiah, but you have a solid and mathy foundation there :) personally I don't find the bolter useless.

 

Perhaps this is worth a new topic in general rather than being inside the Baal Predator one thoguh ;)

[LutherMax]

My post was meant is jest - apologies if not taken that way!

 

Charlo is right though, we are off topic with regards to the Baal...

[gav1892]

anyway back to the BAAL........

 

I must admit im a fan of the Flamer BAAL purely on the rule of cool, but it would be nice to be able to field them in a squadron where you could say, if more than 1 flamestorm cannon targets a unit then the AP of the weapon improves due to the intensity of the cleansing fire.

 

As for vehicles overwatching we can only wish that was the case.

[Charlo]

As soon as we get squadrons of Flamestorm Baals I'll be running three every game. No doubt.

 

"That is some nice jetbikes you got there..."

[Bartali]

anyway back to the BAAL........

 

I must admit im a fan of the Flamer BAAL purely on the rule of cool, but it would be nice to be able to field them in a squadron where you could say, if more than 1 flamestorm cannon targets a unit then the AP of the weapon improves due to the intensity of the cleansing fire.

 

As for vehicles overwatching we can only wish that was the case.

 

If GW aren't going to give the basic Flamestorm Cannon torrent, can we have torrent in squads of 2+ Baals please.

 

While they're at it, if you're only firing the one Flamestorm Cannon on a Redeemer, make that torrent too.

[Quixus]

 

anyway back to the BAAL........

 

I must admit im a fan of the Flamer BAAL purely on the rule of cool, but it would be nice to be able to field them in a squadron where you could say, if more than 1 flamestorm cannon targets a unit then the AP of the weapon improves due to the intensity of the cleansing fire.

 

As for vehicles overwatching we can only wish that was the case.

 

If GW aren't going to give the basic Flamestorm Cannon torrent, can we have torrent in squads of 2+ Baals please.

 

While they're at it, if you're only firing the one Flamestorm Cannon on a Redeemer, make that torrent too.

 

Nah make both cannons torrent regardless of how many you fire. That way you have a reason to take the redeemer over the crusader.

[Xenith]

Hi Paikis, page 154 of the Codex BA Enhanced Edition on iBooks. Has the vehicle weapons, which you click on to open an explanation of their abilities.

Would you mind screen shotting that? Sounds like an error, as unless there's a rule saying 'a Baal Predator armed with Heavy Flamer sponsons may perform overwatch using the Wall of Fire rule' the no overwatch for vehicles would still take precedence, I would've thought.

EDC

Any word on this screenshot, BA Jim? I'm keen to know! Do apple users get free better rules?!

It seems more likely that the Baal entry lets you click on the heavy flamer weapon, which then takes you to the generic weapon rules.

[Charlo]

Hi Paikis, page 154 of the Codex BA Enhanced Edition on iBooks. Has the vehicle weapons, which you click on to open an explanation of their abilities.

Would you mind screen shotting that? Sounds like an error, as unless there's a rule saying 'a Baal Predator armed with Heavy Flamer sponsons may perform overwatch using the Wall of Fire rule' the no overwatch for vehicles would still take precedence, I would've thought.

EDC

Any word on this screenshot, BA Jim? I'm keen to know! Do apple users get free better rules?!

It seems more likely that the Baal entry lets you click on the heavy flamer weapon, which then takes you to the generic weapon rules.

That will be exactly what it is :P

[Omega-soul]

Yeah torrent for Baal is really what the doctor said.

 

Even more - if you take a squadron without torrent - it would be  super hard to use the same 3 flamestorm cannons on one target unless it's a guard-ork blob

[Jolemai]

 

 

Amy chance we can keep the wishlisting to the wishlisting threads please? Cheers.

[BAjim]

Hi Paikis, page 154 of the Codex BA Enhanced Edition on iBooks. Has the vehicle weapons, which you click on to open an explanation of their abilities.

Would you mind screen shotting that? Sounds like an error, as unless there's a rule saying 'a Baal Predator armed with Heavy Flamer sponsons may perform overwatch using the Wall of Fire rule' the no overwatch for vehicles would still take precedence, I would've thought.

EDC

Any word on this screenshot, BA Jim? I'm keen to know! Do apple users get free better rules?!

It seems more likely that the Baal entry lets you click on the heavy flamer weapon, which then takes you to the generic weapon rules.

Paikis, EDC, Charlo, etc, I've been away hence the delay in responding.

From a RAW perspective there is the BRB rule that says Vehicles "unless otherwise specified" cannot fire Overwatch, And there is the Baal with template Flamers which enable firing the Wall of Death in overwatch. So my assertion here is that it is specified. I do appreciate seeking others' opinions thru this fora

Here is the screenshot