Baal Predator; tactics and which version works best?

[RedemptionNL]

To be able to use Wall of Death, you need to be able to fire Overwatch. Vehicles aren't allowed to fire Overwatch (unless specified, like Walkers), so they can't use Wall of Death.

[evildrcheese]

Yeah, as we suspected that pop out box is just summarising the rules for the H Flamer, it doesn't grant the Baal Pred permission to use them for overwatch. :(

 

EDC

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Necroing this thread as I've got a couple of questions/comments. Like most people I play Dakka Baal Preds. However, recently I've been looking at ways to deal with bike squads, and it came to me two fold. A land raider redeemer and the template version of the Baal Pred with Heavy Bolter sponsons. This gives you reliable Dakka when moving and not being able to use to template, and yet still have the template

To help deal with super friends and marine/eldar jetbikes. Obviously you move the tanks together, but it is definitely something I've been thinking about, and our codex can take it in spades.

 

I think forcing your opponents target priority is important, but has anyone tried using the Baal Pred against biker heavy lists?

[Charlo]

Not done it, but the logic is there for sure. I just wonder if you'd ever catch up to bikes....

 

Its a massive shame we can't take flame-storm on Furioso' if I'm honest...

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Not done it, but the logic is there for sure. I just wonder if you'd ever catch up to bikes....

Its a massive shame we can't take flame-storm on Furioso' if I'm honest...

My thought process is force the opponent into uncomfortable situations. To me with bikes, being able to move 12" and blast them with some nasty Strength 6 ap3 jink ignoring fire power sounds great, and then having heavy bolters to force more wounds saves if outside of the template range. Pre-measurment is awesome, and I'm looking for units within our codex without going the whole white scar chapter tactics for hunters eye on some grav-centurions in a drop pod, because the cost of 1 heavy slot that's a 6th of that cost sounds appealing, and you can always take them in a Flesh Tearers strike force as to only need one troop tax. Or a CAD for some objective secured with baal preds backing them.

Edit: And I love the Baal Pred. Its one of the main reasons I chose Codex: BA over the other chapters; What can I say, Red goes faster

[dakkamasta]

I know this isn't related to Baal predators, but if you're after an efficient bike killer look into the forgeworld Whirlwind Scorpius with the legacy that gives ignores cover. D3+1 small blasts at 48" range per turn at strength 8 ap 3 ignores cover, nothing deals with bikes better than that.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm not so knowledgable on Forge World. Most of my club don't use a lot of forge world so we have to agree before hand. We mostly just allow characters as 98% of them don't have any. I myself use Malakim Phoros and Tyberos, and one other group member plays Minotaurs but that's about it I'm afraid. I will definitely look into it. I doubt I'd be able to use it in a lot of pick up games 'round here.

 

Something else I've been thinking about with the Baal Predator is to run a Technomancer. AV 14/12/11 with the flame storm cannon does seem much stronger and loads of fun!

[CaptainHelion]

Jolemi's threads on forgeworld units are pretty good as primers, and theres some really good discussion in them as well.

 

Edit: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297085-imperial-armour-discussion-tanks/ is the thread with the Scorpius in it!

[evildrcheese]

I think Baal Preds would fill that role, but the problem is they tend to only get a max of 1 shot off as due to the short range you're likely to get charged by any thing that survives, then dudes are putting grenades up your exhaust (although this may be less of a problem in the future due to the draft FAQ).

 

I wouldn't bother with sponsons though, just keep it cheap. Just imagine it when we get access to squadrons!

 

EDC

[Charlo]

If we get squadrons you can be i'll be running 3 with Flame Storm. Or at least 2 and an assault cannon one to pop some shots off/ tank wounds.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think Baal Preds would fill that role, but the problem is they tend to only get a max of 1 shot off as due to the short range you're likely to get charged by any thing that survives, then dudes are putting grenades up your exhaust (although this may be less of a problem in the future due to the draft FAQ).

 

I wouldn't bother with sponsons though, just keep it cheap. Just imagine it when we get access to squadrons!

 

EDC

It's what 135 points for Bolters and a flame storm? That's not terrible, and 2 would be 270 points, which you'd want to play 2 over 1.

 

In a 1500 point list it's only about 18% of your total army and if you add a land raider redeemer your looking at a balanced 33-34% heavy slot and less as you increase points. And that also allows utility to shoot at something in every shooting phase, otherwise it is a waste of points imo.

[Remtek]

Main issue is you will probably avg. one decent flame hit every three games. We don't really have any great shooting solutions for bikes except forgeworld, but assaulting them works pretty good, or forcing them to jink with some ap2/ap3. Shame it lost scout :/

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Main issue is you will probably avg. one decent flame hit every three games. We don't really have any great shooting solutions for bikes except forgeworld, but assaulting them works pretty good, or forcing them to jink with some ap2/ap3. Shame it lost scout :/

As long as it isn't stupid friends with a 4++re-rollable and 4+ FNP, 1 flame template could be enough to take out what you need it too, giving you that leverage you need to finish the mission. And remember you could still have the Bolters to help chew through MEQ and Xenos.

[evildrcheese]

Theory crafting is all well and good, but it probably needs field testing to see how it works when in reality. I would volunteer but in my local meta I don't actually see bikes/jetbikes that often...

 

I can take them in my TAC list and report back...

 

EDC

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Well our club has loads of Eldar/Dark Eldar players with jetbikes, we also have a few ravenwing players, a white scar player, and some space puppies calv, a CSM Nurgle themed biker list which is brutal, and then a couple-o- bugs, and imps. We also have one bloke with about 20k points worth of Orks, and then the accursed Tau. Haven't seen Necrons in several months though.

 

Then there is the tournament crowd at another FLGS, and they play the real max/min lists, they are always training for Adepticon, ATC, the LVO, the Battle Bunker, the Red Rumble, The Waaghh, etc. and of course they also have their own tournament which I jokingly call the Battle of the Banner, but it has a different name entirely. I usually only play against a couple of players in that crowd though.

 

Edit: I could always ask the more competitive players, but I can already hear them, "if your not playing allies, you're not playing 40k"

 

Which they obviously wouldn't say out right, they would agree there are better options out there. Still I'd love to give it a go.

[Remtek]

Against Jetbikes your best bet is long ranged firepower (48") Scatter bikes being the most common shoot at 36" range and move back in the assault phase. Their main weakness is drop pods and bolters since they only are t4 and 3+ armor. Since they often like to hug their own deployment zone if you manage to kill enough to force a leadership test, usually one or two they have a decent chanse of failing it (30%ish) and running off the board. 

 

Vs Nurglebikers its usually better to shoot something else since they are t6, but generally have low firepower for their points. Most run them with melta so they need to get close whick makes them vulnerable to assault. 

 

It's been a while since i fielded the flamestrom Baal, but i do bring the Land Raider Redeemer a lot in friendly games. Even with the 12 inch move and POTMS it's very rare it will reach a useful target and cover enough models. However a flame Baal might be useful for scaring off people trying to bumrush you, just keep it more than 18 inches from meltabikes and protect the sides early game. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I've started incorporating a lot of the above tactics. I play Eldar as my Xenos army, but it's because I love elves, and elves in space are like double fun. I do wish jetbikes had have been 1in 3 for the heavy upgrades, but I digress, for this is an imperial forum.

 

I've noticed a lot of Eldar players reserve their jetbikes when playing against drop pods and rely on their wraith knight and wave serpents to counter the alpha strike. I usually just pump loads of Bolters and heavy Bolters into the jetbikes in the later turns If they do that, and I need them off an objective.

 

The Nurgle bike squads are super good, and super cool. If I recall he plays plasma guns on his squads, but it might be melta. It's just a very aggressive army that forces you to pick between killing the two to three mauler fiends or the two, seven man squads of Nurgle bikers while also worrying about the Nurgle spawn. It is a pretty spectacular list to face, and a very pick your poison type, no pun intended, army list, that's ironically fast for being Nurgle.

 

I think I'll proxy a couple of my Dakka Baal Preds just to see how well they perform before I go search for a flame storm turret, or two.

[Charlo]

I think I'll proxy a couple of my Dakka Baal Preds just to see how well they perform before I go search for a flame storm turret, or two.

 

Do it and report back!

 

Really, Baal Flame preds are useful for one thing for sure, target priority.

 

Drive 3 of them up flat out and I assure you no one is looking at your Death Company anymore.

[appiah4]

 

I think I'll proxy a couple of my Dakka Baal Preds just to see how well they perform before I go search for a flame storm turret, or two.

 

Do it and report back!

 

Really, Baal Flame preds are useful for one thing for sure, target priority.

 

Drive 3 of them up flat out and I assure you no one is looking at your Death Company anymore.

 

 

But almost 500 pts of diversion is a bit too much?  I'd say three Vindicators would do this much better for much cheaper..

[Charlo]

You are probably right - but it's some nice flavour. If not take 4 tanks, two of each.

 

Most people run two detatchments to its entirely plausible. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Well 3 stock Baal Preds with just the Flame Storm cannon is 345, with heavy bolter sponsons its 405, I would at most only run 2 even though I have 3 Baal Preds already. Shame they are heavies now, as I have SO MUCH heavy support options now :(

[Charlo]

345 is pretty great. But god damn sponsons are expensive. It's a friggin pair of heavy bolters. Should be 5pts...

[Dont-Be-Haten]

345 is pretty great. But god damn sponsons are expensive. It's a friggin pair of heavy bolters. Should be 5pts...

Completely agree. I'd also be okay with it being a 10 point upgrade to represent 5 points each.

[Charlo]

Heavy Bolter sponsons:

 

All the 2nd/ 3th Edition costs you love, with none of the benefits!

[appiah4]

345 is pretty great. But god damn sponsons are expensive. It's a friggin pair of heavy bolters. Should be 5pts...

 

But are they really that expensive?  2 HB sponsons are 6 S5 AP4 shots at WS4; against MEQ that's 4 S5 hits, around 2 wounds.  Basically, if you are shooting at targets they are made for, they really make their points back very, very fast.  Moreover, 6 S5 shots a turn can actually even threaten AV10/11 transports and fliers in a pinch.  I know that we would like them to be less expensive, but I think they are nearly fair value for utility..